Why is Hell Eternal?

[doulosChristou]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The opposite of life is death, or eternal life in fire? Death, correct? So then, if we choose the opposite of evil, which is righteousness, we are rewarded with Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord, yes? So then, if we reject the Lord, would we not receive the opposite? Would we not receive death? Yes, we would receive death. Infinite Life with God, or infinite death -- a punishment with NO END. They burn according to their works and then they die, and become ashes underneath the soles of our feet.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Notice the similarities. And noticed that with the unquenchable fire (which is claimed to burn for all eternity), they shall be burnt up. They shall become ashes underneath the soles of our feet.

This is not exegesis. The problem with your reasoning is you are interpreting a historical text according to a modern understanding of terms, rather than according to how the biblical authors themselves use the terms. "Death" is used in many ways in Scripture, and it often takes somewhat of a figurative sense. Very rarely, if ever, is it actually used to mean that something simply ceases and no longer exists. Even those who die physically and "descend to the dead/grave" are described as being conscious in that place. Spiritual "death," likewise, is used to describe the sinful nature of fallen man, and does not give the sense of no longer existing, or no longer having the capacity to think spiritually at all, but instead refers to the sinful inclination of the heart and the inability for the sinner to will or desire what is pleasing to God. You can't just insert an arbitrary definition of the word "death" or "ashes" into these texts. You have to argue from the context how it is you've derived these definitions from the author's own usage of the terms.

A second problem with your response (and I'll remind you, it is a response, because you quoted me), is that you failed to actually interact with the points that I raised. I will never understand why people do this. What do you hope to argue by ignoring my points and just bringing up others? You can't refute my case by not interacting with the points I've raised and demonstrating what is wrong with them. Even if we were to accept your position for the sake of argument, you have given us no reason why we should not therefore conclude that what you are implying is that man can atone for his own sins.

I often wonder how many christians would be involved on forums if they had to use their full name.

I bet very few would.

That alone tells me they are spinless and afraid to stand behind what they beleive or preach

But they are not afraid to hide behind a fake avatar and proclaim they are ready to take on The Antichrist and the devil himself.

I'm not sure why you think you can conclude that. It tells you no such thing. There are any number of reasons why people may use avatars or nicknames. Maybe they are just concerned about sharing private information for strangers all over the world to see. Or maybe they just like to go by a nickname, like myself. There's nothing wrong with that, and it does not prove anyone to be spineless. My name is Thomas Scott Morgan. You can read all about me on the "About" page on the link in my signature.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


I've yet to figure out just when He changed his mind

.... adam did die ...... and because of that so will we .... but is there not a second death to come in the future ?? ..... yes there is ..... and as christians we have no fear of that second death ...... we will be with the lord for eternity ...... and everybody else will be somewhere else for eternity ...... presumably hell ..... and that is the topic of this whole thread isnt it .... ?

best wishes
A.M

 

[Raeneske]

This is not exegesis. The problem with your reasoning is you are interpreting a historical text according to a modern understanding of terms, rather than according to how the biblical authors themselves use the terms. "Death" is used in many ways in Scripture, and it often takes somewhat of a figurative sense. Very rarely, if ever, is it actually used to mean that something simply ceases and no longer exists. Even those who die physically and "descend to the dead/grave" are described as being conscious in that place. Spiritual "death," likewise, is used to describe the sinful nature of fallen man, and does not give the sense of no longer existing, or no longer having the capacity to think spiritually at all, but instead refers to the sinful inclination of the heart and the inability for the sinner to will or desire what is pleasing to God. You can't just insert an arbitrary definition of the word "death" or "ashes" into these texts. You have to argue from the context how it is you've derived these definitions from the author's own usage of the terms.

A second problem with your response (and I'll remind you, it <em class='bbc'>is </em>a response, because you quoted me), is that you failed to actually interact with the points that I raised. I will never understand why people do this. What do you hope to argue by ignoring my points and just bringing up others? You can't refute my case by not interacting with the points I've raised and demonstrating what is wrong with them. Even if we were to accept your position for the sake of argument, you have given us no reason why we should not therefore conclude that what you are implying is that man can atone for his own sins.


I'm not sure why you think you can conclude that. It tells you no such thing. There are any number of reasons why people may use avatars or nicknames. Maybe they are just concerned about sharing private information for strangers all over the world to see. Or maybe they just like to go by a nickname, like myself. There's nothing wrong with that, and it does not prove anyone to be spineless. My name is Thomas Scott Morgan. You can read all about me on the "About" page on the link in my signature.

I commented to the statement you made about hell being eternal. The quotes I presented show you that hell is not eternal. It also comments on what you said about why such a punishment is eternal. I then explained the real eternal punishment -- death -- as it is directly contrasted to the eternal gift -- life eternal.

If death biblically was understood as having consciousness, your explanation would be believable. Scripture says this:

Ecclesiates 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiates 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:1-4 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14:10-12 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So, the the living (that's us) know that we shall die, but the dead do not know a single thing. The dead have nothing to do with anything underneath this sun, and also their feelings have now perished. So we are then bidden to do what we can now, because in the grave there is nothing that we can do. There is no work, or device, or wisdom within the grave -- which makes perfect sense seeing as how when you die, even your very memory perishes. Now, the dead praise not the Lord, no one praises the Lord who goes down into the grave, for they have gone down in silence. While living, while having any being, the Psalmist declares he will Praise the Lord, while he has any being left. While it's confirmed in another Psalm(115) that the dead cannot praise the Lord, it is also confirmed in this Pslam (146), that when one dies, his breath goes forth, and he returns to the earth, of which he was created. It also states that just like in the previous area, the thoughts of man perish at death.

Death is not likened to being awake, but is likened to being unconscious. It is like sleep, but a complete unconsciousness. Job shows how when you die, you give up the ghost, and your body goes to decay away, and you shall not rise up, neither awaken until the heavens be no more. Back to this subject in a second.

In John we see also Jesus uses the same terms. Death is considered sleep, as is understood by men in the past. Jesus confirms that such a thing is the truth, that death is sleep, yet a complete unconsciousness (meaning no dreaming).

Now Paul also shows, we die a natural body, and are raised a spiritual one. The key is the dead are raised to life at the second coming of Christ. Paul also confirms the same thing as Christ did, by calling death "sleep". He also states that this corruptible, must put on incorruption, and that we mortals will then put on immortality.

It is then, at the second coming of Christ, when one becomes immortal. Mankind is not inherently immortal, as is taught throught the world of Christiandom.

Luke 23:43 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Is he saying Today that the thief will be with Him in paradise? If so, explain this:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus would appear (appear is key here) to be being untruthful to either the woman, or the thief on the cross. We know Jesus wouldn't lie, so we are left with a conundrum... Except when we consider the text.

When the KJV was first penned, punctuation was not there. It was later added in the KJV. The problem is with Luke 23:43. The added punctuation put's the comma in the wrong place. It's supposed to say, "I say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in paradise". That then puts that verse back in harmony with the entire Bible.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is often cited as well to prove otherwise. But seeing as how the entire Bible is showing that death is sleep, then it's left for the reader to understand that this is a PARABLE. A parable is to help people understand things, and often times is an example of truth. For example:

Judges 9:8-15 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

In the parable of the rich man, Jesus was explaining how the "dogs" go for the crumbs, getting what they can, receiving the blessings which they can. He explained the truth how they that are that are comforted now, shall be be sorrowful, they that are full now, shall be no be full, etc. His parable is no more saying that hell is place of eternal burning in fire, or that the dead can even talk, anymore than the previous parable is concluding to you that trees can speak and ask for olive trees to reign over them, that vines can speak, and that brambles can speak. It is a parable, meant to further your understanding, not something to be taken out of context, to preach something completely different than the Bible perscribes.

That is why, your explanation is disagreeable when it comes to death.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
williemac, on 04 Jan 2013 - 16:59, said : It comes as no surprise that
you have seen the "friuit" card so often.

It's been my experience online that people who play the "fruit" card assume
themselves qualified to discern good fruit from bad. And of course they always
sincerely believe themselves producers of the good fruit.

Another very popular card often seen played by people online wearing the
Christian label is "judge not lest ye be judged". (chuckle) People throw that
card back and forth at each other like ninja shurikens.

Two excellent cards; seldom seen and very rarely used, are these:

"whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

"Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in
his steps . .When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate"

Cheek turning and suffering in silence are no longer in vogue with most people
online wearing the Christian label, and I suspect it's mostly because were they
to incorporate those practices in their social skills; it would spoil the fun of posting
passive-aggressive retorts and recriminations.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Raeneske .... you are way out of context on this whole topic ..... of course when we are dead we cannot do anything else like it says in ecclesiastes ,psalms , job , and john etc.

But we are not talking about life and death here on earth ..... the topic is about hell being everlasting .... same as heaven is everlasting .... the stuff that happens after we die and after the ressurection etc.

best wishes
arnie m

 

[Raeneske]

Raeneske .... you are way out of context on this whole topic ..... of course when we are dead we cannot do anything else like it says in ecclesiastes ,psalms , job , and john etc.

But we are not talking about life and death here on earth ..... the topic is about hell being everlasting .... same as heaven is everlasting .... the stuff that happens after we die and after the ressurection etc.

best wishes
arnie m

I am not out of context, the reason I needed to post what happened at death, is because he made a mention of being able to have consciousness in death. That needed to be stated, because if you do not understand what happens at the moment of death, that is how you will be duped into believing such a thing such as hellfire burning -- is to happen for all eternity. When you are dead, you sleep as in death is sleep. No consciousness, no nothing.

I have been posting answers in regards to hell being eternal. What is understood generally is that hell burns for eternity, I have showed in previous posts, is that it does not. The gift is eternal life, and if you refuse, death. Death eternal, not burning for eternity. Burning for all eternity shows that you must have life to do so. If you are dead, and burn for eternity, you wouldn't feel a thing. Also, scripture shows this fire which falls from heaven happens upon the face of our planet, and our planet is ALSO burned up by this same exact fire. Yet, the planet will not burn for all eternity.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Raeneske .... it doesent matter to me what you think .... I am just puzzled how you think that upon death everything has ended.

If that is the case we might as well close our bibles and live for today

Or do you think at the ressurection people are created all over again ..... ??? .... if so , it would not be us .... it would be a different person.

 

[Raeneske]

Raeneske .... it doesent matter to me what you think .... I am just puzzled how you think that upon death everything has ended.

If that is the case we might as well close our bibles and live for today

Or do you think at the ressurection people are created all over again ..... ??? .... if so , it would not be us .... it would be a different person.

The Bible makes known what happens when someone dies. When you die, you cease to exist. Scripture is plain about that fact. However, that is not a reason to close your Bible whatsoever. I am not saying, there is no God, and there is no heaven, and that the rightoues have nothing to look forward to. For we are the ones who are to have the hope that we are to be ressurected, and only THEN are we granted eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:35,38,42,44,54 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?...But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body...So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

No, it would not be a different person. Your personality and features are kept, and retained by God. Then, when the ressurection comes you are fashioned after the Lord's glorious body. All defects and maladies are healed, all parts of the brain are cultivated:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And only THEN is the saying made manifest, that DEATH is swallowed up in victory. And only THEN do you receive eternal life, AT the Second Coming. Only THEN do we mortals put on incorruption, and immoratlity.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people; and Hell also is a place
prepared for a prepared people.

I once heard a preacher spin a rather realistic yarn about a bus load of Hell's
inmates who were issued a 30-day pass for R&R in Heaven. They all came
back the very first night because Heaven just wasn't their cup of tea. They
were like fish out of water and could scarce wait to get back to their own
pond.

Most life on earth does best in the environment for which it was designed.
For example: avocado trees do poorly in Oregon's Willamette Valley, but do
very well in central Mexico. Well; people in hell are sort of like that. Hell is
their natural habitat. Take them to heaven and they would struggle to survive.

I once wrote to a rather perpetually annoyed friend of mine and suggested
they should be using what time they have left on earth to begin preparing
themselves for the worst when they pass because heaven is a place of
peace. Someone with their personality would not like that kind of social
environment. In point of fact, they would be very frustrated if they couldn't
be themselves there. No; their best afterlife selection is hell because down
there, people can be themselves and nobody cares. My friend would fit right
in.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

.
Heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people; and Hell also is a place
prepared for a prepared people.

I once heard a preacher spin a rather realistic yarn about a bus load of Hell's
inmates who were issued a 30-day pass for R&R in Heaven. They all came
back the very first night because Heaven just wasn't their cup of tea. They
were like fish out of water and could scarce wait to get back to their own
pond.

Most life on earth does best in the environment for which it was designed.
For example: avocado trees do poorly in Oregon's Willamette Valley, but do
very well in central Mexico. Well; people in hell are sort of like that. Hell is
their natural habitat. Take them to heaven and they would struggle to survive.

I once wrote to a rather perpetually annoyed friend of mine and suggested
they should be using what time they have left on earth to begin preparing
themselves for the worst when they pass because heaven is a place of
peace. Someone with their personality would not like that kind of social
environment. In point of fact, they would be very frustrated if they couldn't
be themselves there. No; their best afterlife selection is hell because down
there, people can be themselves and nobody cares. My friend would fit right
in.

Buen Camino
/

I will risk a few more character slanders and reply. This is a pretty good perspective if hell were just a place of residence for the lost. However, Hades is a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. As well, from the story of the rich man and Lazerus, we can see that there is a dryness there in the flame, that causes mental anguish otherwise known as torment. I seroiusly doubt that this is a comfortable state to be in no matter who we are talking about that winds up there. Unless one is in torment already here on earth and quite enjoying it, fitting right in would be a small consolation.
Having said all that, the wonderful God we serve has spared the human race from an eternity of this fate. Death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of fire at the Great White Throne judgment. This is called the second death.
As seen in Gen.3:6, mankind was spared the fate of a forever conscious life (of torment). We are told there that men will not live forever in his fallen state. Jesus confirms this in John 6:50,51, where He informs us that only those who partake of Him will live forever and not die.

For those who are destroyed in the Lake of fire (Gehenna re: Math.10:28), their corpses will remain as a forever reminder to creation (Is.66:24.) Their worm does not die, nor their fire quenched....meaning that this is a permanent judgment, an everlasting punishment.

If one will live forever in Hell, then one must be alive there. Then Jesus lied when He designated living forever as only one of the two alternatives (John3:16, John6:50,51). Did Jesus lie, or do men fail to see? To those who refuse to see this...I call that what it is: obstinate. The truth is not hidden.

.
williemac, on 04 Jan 2013 - 16:59, said : It comes as no surprise that
you have seen the "friuit" card so often.

It's been my experience online that people who play the "fruit" card assume
themselves qualified to discern good fruit from bad. And of course they always
sincerely believe themselves producers of the good fruit.

Another very popular card often seen played by people online wearing the
Christian label is "judge not lest ye be judged". (chuckle) People throw that
card back and forth at each other like ninja shurikens.

Two excellent cards; seldom seen and very rarely used, are these:

"whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

"Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in
his steps . .When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate"

Cheek turning and suffering in silence are no longer in vogue with most people
online wearing the Christian label, and I suspect it's mostly because were they
to incorporate those practices in their social skills; it would spoil the fun of posting
passive-aggressive retorts and recriminations.

Buen Camino
/

My dear brother. While you question the relevency of those who play certain cards, you are merely skirting the fact that you have called your own relevency into question by playing the attack card. You have no problem coming onto this site and calling a complete stranger conceited and a wolf in sheep's clothing, making derogatory digs along the way. (I am not without a sense of humor, but I am sorry if those remarks of yours toward me are not funny to me). But this kind of tactic reveals enough about you that, as you insist, no one really needs to answer it with a card. ("Methinks the emperor has no clothes on" ;)).

As far as advising me to stick to what is revealed instead of what makes sense to me, make no mistake. That is precisely what I am doing, as the above reply, and others, might indicate. Instead of using my character as a punching bag, a mere cop out in my humble opinion, why not for a change reply to the passages? Is there or is there not going to be forever conscious torment for a lost human? yes or no. Blessings, Howie

 

[Axehead]

Dear All,

I believe that hell is eternal because it was made before this creation and exists outside of it. It was created to be a punishment for Lucifer and those angels that followed him in the great rebellion. Therefore, even when this cosmos is destroyed it will still exist because it is made of the stuff of eternity. Moreover it was created to punish eternal beings.

I believe the doctrine of hell is one of the most fundament tenants of the Christian faith and should not be shied away from because we fear making the lost uncomfortable. Hell is what we are being saved from. The Salvation God provides through His son is so great because the danger of hell is so horrible and permanent.

When it says a lake of fire we should assume that it is a literal lake of fire. When is says eternal it means without end. When is says that there is no escape we need to agree with God there is no escape. Hell was only made for Lucifer and his fallen angels but if the lost or even those who have once believed insist of following him then they will suffer Satan's same fate...forever.

Hi Justin,

The existence of Satan and Hell are two concepts of reality that are quickly being extinguished today in society and sadly in the Church. Since salvation only comes in the Body (because that is where we sin, too) it stands to reason that one cannot be saved after they leave the body. There is no way to show fruits of repentance after one has left the body. Once they leave the body there is no place for faith (believing in the unseen) anymore because the spiritual realm and its realities will be seen and known.

The clear implication in the following verses that talk about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched is that those who go into hell will not be extinguished. If the worm lives, then the unrighteous will live, too.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Everlasting fire is synonymous with Everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The unrighteous will suffer everlasting punishment and the righteous will enjoy life eternal.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[williemac]

Hi Justin,

The existence of Satan and Hell are two concepts of reality that are quickly being extinguished today in society and sadly in the Church. Since salvation only comes in the Body (because that is where we sin, too) it stands to reason that one cannot be saved after they leave the body. There is no way to show fruits of repentance after one has left the body. Once they leave the body there is no place for faith (believing in the unseen) anymore because the spiritual realm and its realities will be seen and known.

The clear implication in the following verses that talk about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched is that those who go into hell will not be extinguished. If the worm lives, then the unrighteous will live, too.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Everlasting fire is synonymous with Everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The unrighteous will suffer everlasting punishment and the righteous will enjoy life eternal.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

These words do not speak of forever conscious torment. The smoke is forever. The no rest day or night does not include the word forever. It will surely endure until the Great White Throine judgment and until the second death. As well, Math.25:46, an entirely seperate context, does not include the type of punishment that is everlasting, it only refers to the duration. Just suppose that the actual punishment is to be destroyed, to die, to perish, and it is permanent, then the punishment of death would surely be everlasting. Everlasting death is an everlasting punishment. The idea that one is conscious or alive for eternity is not conclusive by the wording of any of these texts and is therefore superimp[osed on the text by the preconceived notion.
However, we do have words that are more direct. They are in the texts that I have shared that in no uncertain terms, to live forever (and NOT DIE..John6:50,51) is not designated universally to all mankind, but rather just to they who partake of Jesus and therefore the tree of life. Please read them ( ie.#50) and explain how they mean other than what they say. Thank you.
Blessings, Howie

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

that was very well said and I think you are right. I never thought about it that way but it does kind of flesh out the why's and hows of the doctrine. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Justin,

The existence of Satan and Hell are two concepts of reality that are quickly being extinguished today in society and sadly in the Church. Since salvation only comes in the Body (because that is where we sin, too) it stands to reason that one cannot be saved after they leave the body. There is no way to show fruits of repentance after one has left the body. Once they leave the body there is no place for faith (believing in the unseen) anymore because the spiritual realm and its realities will be seen and known.

The clear implication in the following verses that talk about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched is that those who go into hell will not be extinguished. If the worm lives, then the unrighteous will live, too.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Everlasting fire is synonymous with Everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The unrighteous will suffer everlasting punishment and the righteous will enjoy life eternal.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What is everlasting fire?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

Everlasting fire, eternal fire, fire and brimstone, lake of fire are all names for the same exact thing. What’s more, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by the same exact fire, that is prepared for Satan and his angels, and all the wicked in the end. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning to this very day? Absolutely not! What’s more, besides the wicked who are burning, something else is going to burn as well with that very same unquenchable fire.

Luke 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the
oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The same day that the wicked are burning, this entire earth is going to be on fire as well (except those in the city). Is the earth going to be on fire for all eternity? Absolutely not!

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

What’s more, they are going to burn in the presence of the saved, the holy angels, and God!

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Is God going to burn only these people, for all eternity? Sodom and Gomorrah and it’s inhabitants didn’t. The earth certainly is not going to. And is God going to sit there, and watch them burn, with the Saints, and the holy angels for all eternity? Absolutely not!

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do
this, saith the Lord of hosts.

The Lord is going to burn them up, and all the wicked shall be stubble. God shall leave neither root nor branch. And why shall there be neither root nor branch? It is because the wicked shall be destroyed, Satan and all his cohorts shall be burnt up. In the day that God does this, they shall be ashes underneath the souls of our feet. The Lord will burn them up:

Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier
than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God is able, and is going to kill the body and soul. The wicked shall be destroyed, and they shall exist no more.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

And if you exist no more, then certainly it shall be as if you have never existed in the first place.

Obadiah 1:15-16 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shallbe as though they had not been.

What’s more, the Lord further proves that even Satan himself shall not exist anymore once he has been burned according to his works as well. And if you are wondering what the heaten shall drink btw, it's the wrath of God.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Axehead]

I would love to believe in annihilationism, Rae, but find it difficult to believe in it when the Bible does not talk about it or even allude to it.

2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Destruction is usually a one time thing. It is destroyed so there is no use in destroying it any more than it is. However, Paul speaks of everlasting destruction and this word "destruction" (olethros) is likened to a prolonged death or punishment.

Why is fire eternal if it annihilates one time? What is the purpose of it being eternal?
Jude_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Everlasting life means forever and ever and it is juxtaposed against everlasting contempt. How could one mean forever and ever and the other one not mean the same thing?
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Axehead

 

[Raeneske]

I would love to believe in annihilationism, Rae, but find it difficult to believe in it when the Bible does not talk about it or even allude to it.

2Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Destruction is usually a one time thing. It is destroyed so there is no use in destroying it any more than it is. However, Paul speaks of everlasting destruction and this word "destruction" (olethros) is likened to a prolonged death or punishment.

Why is fire eternal if it annihilates one time? What is the purpose of it being eternal?
Jude_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Everlasting life means forever and ever and it is juxtaposed against everlasting contempt. How could one mean forever and ever and the other one not mean the same thing?
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Axehead

The Bible does allude to it, I will repost the verses which speak of the wicked becoming ashes, and ceasing to exist once more.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Obadiah 1:15-16 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shallbe as though they had not been.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Not even Satan is to exist anymore.

The fire itself Is not "eternal", that is just the name of the fire. The fire comes down upon the wicked with eternal consequences. Sodom and Gomorrah and all it's inhabitants experienced the vengeance of eternal fire. The same shall happen to the wicked in the end, and the earth as well is to be burned up with the same fire. The fire is unquenchable because of the fuel -- meaning that it would not stop burning so long as there is any sin yet unpaid for, if there was a single inhabitant left in Sodom and Gomorrah, if there was a single trace of sin left upon the earth. The eternal fire, also called fire and brimstone, is not a fire that is to burn for all eternity.

It shall be everlasting contempt, but it does not mean eternal fire. Death shall be everlasting, which is caused by fire. They are going to be faced with destruction, the wicked in the end. Does this help understand?

Satan \ Jesus​

Death \ Life​

Sin \ Righteousness​

Burning time and/or intensity \ Treasure stored in Heaven​

​

If you choose Satan as your master, you shall receive death. If you choose Jesus as your Master, you shall receive life. With Satan as your master, you are a servant to his works, which are sin. With Jesus as your Master, you are a servant of righteousness, and you will do righteous works. When you sin, you are adding time/intensity to the fire which is to burn the wicked at the end. When you do well, and continue doing good works through the Lord Jesus Christ, you are storing up treasure for yourself in heaven. This is another reason to look at why your works cannot save you. Only Jesus saves you. It doesn't matter how "good" you may think you are, without Jesus it is impossible to get to heaven. Once the Lord saves you, you then become a servant of righteousness, and cannot help but to do the will of God, commandment keeping, helping others, denying self, etc. But I digress.

:)

 

[Axehead]

Once the Lord saves you, you then become a servant of righteousness, and cannot help but to do the will of God, commandment keeping, helping others, denying self, etc. But I digress.

What do you mean "you cannot help but to do the will of God". Are you saying that there is no struggle with the flesh and thus no need for the crucified life or the Cross? We no longer have to choose? It's just automatic? Can you expound on your statement?

The verses you give as examples are just that, allusions. Far reaching allusions at that. None of those verses specifically teach a doctrine of annihilation-ism.


Jesus talked more about hell than anyone. Can you show me the doctrine of annihilation-ism from His words?

Axehead

 

[Raeneske]

What do you mean "you cannot help but to do the will of God". Are you saying that there is no struggle with the flesh and thus no need for the crucified life or the Cross? We no longer have to choose? It's just automatic? Can you expound on your statement?

The verses you give as examples are just that, allusions. Far reaching allusions at that. None of those verses specifically teach a doctrine of annihilation-ism.


Jesus talked more about hell than anyone. Can you show me the doctrine of annihilation-ism from His words?

Axehead

This is a long post, please read it all. If you have any questions, you can always ask me. :)

Sure, I can explain:

What I'm saying, is that a Christian will soon start to do the will of God, keeping the Commandments, loving his neighbour, helping people etc. upon impulse, which God gives. That is not to say there is no struggle, there is no cross, there is no trial. For there is all those things, for it takes time to spiritually mature. But as a Christian learns to walk again, it soons becomes a habit to walk the correct path. Soon, those trials which used to be so difficult for you, becomes a piece of cake. Of course you'll still have to choose, but doing the will of God makes it easier to do good the next time around, where as if you keep letting flesh win, it becomes more difficult to walk as Jesus did. And this is not to say, you never make a mistake either, that you do. But remember, whosoever is born of God "sinneth not". :)

Those verses do teach eternal death. What is the illusion in becoming ash, and being as you had not been? That's 4 perfect examples in scripture being cast down as irrelevant. Do you remember that I showed you that event is supposed to take place on the very earth that we are on right now, right in front of the Saints, Jesus, and the Holy Angels?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:9-10 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And yes, I purposely put those verses that say, "for ever and ever" while sharing that too. It has the effect it's supposed to, which I'm not sure people look at. If you read this quite literally, you will say, "In the presence of Jesus, the Holy Angels, and Saints, all of the wicked shall be tormented for all eternity." That literally is an absurd thing for love to do. For all eternity, in all our presence? No, that is not what these verses are saying.

Leviticus 10:15 The heave shoulder and the wave breast shall they bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the Lord; and it shall be thine, and thy sons' with thee, by a statute for ever; as the Lord hath commanded.

Imagine an Israelite turned Christian claimed that he still had to do this, because the Lord commanded that this statute was to be done forever. The Israelite claimed that because the Lord said forever, he must do every single thing in the Bible which the Lord says is a statute forever. Instantly it could be pointed out, that the Israelite truly does not understand scripture, and does not understand what the Lord came to do. They were to do this statute “forever” until the Lord came, until type met antitype.

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Was Jonah in the belly of the whale forever? Of course not, 3 days he was down there. It certainly must have felt like forever though, to be in darkness, in a whale for so long. For ever is not always literal, but timing also must be taken into an account.

Deuteronomy 15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

So, was this servant going to serve this man, literally forever? No, it was understood that for as long as they both would live, the man would be the servant “forever”.

Likewise, for as long as the wicked shall live in the end, that’s how long they should burn. They have no rest day nor night, because “forever” while they live, they are burning. There is no rest for them. Once they have been burned according to their works, they cease to exist, ie. They die. They shall become ashes underneath the soles of our feet.

Now all those verses may seem like, "Duh, those aren't for eternity". It's the same thing for everlasting fire. First, everlasting fire is just the name. It is also called lake of fire, and fire and brimstone which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and it's inhabitants, and what shall burn the earth as well in the very end. That has to be understood, or else it shall not make sense what I am saying.

Here is what the Lord has shown:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

God is a just judge correct? So how is it possible, every single crime committed by the wicked warrants an eternity of being burned? Look at our judges today, and look when we see "Justice is served". Are we any more just than God? No.

Every man is to rewarded according to their works. This is also verified by Jesus when He states:

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

You cannot receive "more stripes" figuratively speaking, if you are burning for the same amount of time - eternity - for your sins than the wicked. This is why people are judged according to their works. They are burned "forever" without rest day nor night, until they pay for all their wicked deeds. Then they cease to exist. Satan, the wicked, will all be brought to ashes, and we shall walk upon their ashes.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As a Christian, we do not fear those who can kill our body. We shall be raised a spiritual body in the ressurection. However, we are to fear walking our own path, and not the narrow one. For that, God will destroy both body AND soul in hell.

One last part, to seal up any confusion:

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, FatherAbraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art
tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This parable outlines many of the teachings, and truths Jesus Christ shared, as all of His parables due. The point is to show that Lazarus desired to be fed with the crumbs, even if that was all he could get. It is even as the woman of Canaan, the “dogs” ate that which they could receive. Lazarus would be one who “ate” the good word of God, the bread of life, and ate at the crumbs he only could receive. Therefore, when Lazarus died, he
was saved. The rich man is like Jesus said, “That a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matthew 19:23) “How hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter the Kingdom of God” (Mark 10:24-25). The rich man could also be portrayed as one who had all he needed and therefore did not thirst, nor was
he hungered. (Luke 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.) This parable also shows the position those who refuse to believe are in. If God raised someone up, they still would not believe that He was the Son of God, but seek to kill him. They were not persuaded when Jesus gave life to Lazarus, or even when the Father resurrected His Son. This parable is no more teaching that the dead can speak, or that hell burns for eternity any more than the parable in judges is teaching you that trees can talk, and ask olive trees, vines, and brambles to reign over them. (Judges 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.) The parable continues on after that verse, that is just the beginning of it. They are meant to give you deeper understandings, not things for us to take and twist out of context to teach something that is not Biblically taught.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Bible rings true, the wages of sin is death (not eternal life in fire), and the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen. :)

 

[Axehead]

If you read this quite literally, you will say, "In the presence of Jesus, the Holy Angels, and Saints, all of the wicked shall be tormented for all eternity." That literally is an absurd thing for love to do. For all eternity, in all our presence? No, that is not what these verses are saying.

You added "and Saints". That is not in the text in Revelation 14:10.

And God does not love the Devil or his children. So, your statement "absurd thing for love to do" is only bringing charges against the Lord when this was the choice of the Devil and all those who chose to serve him.

Imagine an Israelite turned Christian claimed that he still had to do this, because the Lord commanded that this statute was to be done forever. The Israelite claimed that because the Lord said forever, he must do every single thing in the Bible which the Lord says is a statute forever. Instantly it could be pointed out, that the Israelite truly does not understand scripture, and does not understand what the Lord came to do. They were to do this statute “forever” until the Lord came, until type met anti-type.

Imagine an Israelite turned Christian who received the revelation of Jesus Christ and realized that he did not have to observe all the "shadows" anymore since the real thing (Jesus) had come and was now his. Paul the Apostle comes to mind.

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Was Jonah in the belly of the whale forever? Of course not, 3 days he was down there. It certainly must have felt like forever though, to be in darkness, in a whale for so long. For ever is not always literal, but timing also must be taken into an account.

"Was Jonah in the belly of the whale forever?" Uh, no. Where did the Scriptures say "forever"? The Bible said 3 days. Just like Jesus in the grave. Where did you get this "forever"? What's your point?

Deuteronomy 15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

So, was this servant going to serve this man, literally forever? No, it was understood that for as long as they both would live, the man would be the servant “forever”.

Uh,,,No. Common sense, Rae.

But you are drawing conclusions and reading into scripture when you say the following:

Likewise, for as long as the wicked shall live in the end, that’s how long they should burn. They have no rest day nor night, because “forever” while they live, they are burning. There is no rest for them. Once they have been burned according to their works, they cease to exist, ie. They die. They shall become ashes underneath the soles of our feet.

The rest of your post is the same type of thinking so I am going to end it here with this question.

What is the purpose of bringing pain and torture upon the wicked and then obliterating them? Why not just obliterate them? Why should they even stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. If God knows they are deserving of annihilation when they die, why doesn't he just annihilate them, then. Why is everything else necessary? Judgement, embarrassment, shame, pain, torture, etc? Is God satisfying some sadistic urge before He annihilates the wicked? If they will be obliterated and have no remembrance of why they were judged, then what is the purpose of their judgement and pain?

The Bible also says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". But we know this does not mean to be annihilated. It means that the soul that sins shall die spiritually. Now, Jesus says there are two deaths. The first death, we actually survive and live. Our body dies, but our spirit lives.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death, Jesus is talking about "hurt" which is pain and suffering, not annihilation.

Axehead

 

[Raeneske]

You added "and Saints". That is not in the text in Revelation 14:10.

And God does not love the Devil or his children. So, your statement "absurd thing for love to do" is only bringing charges against the Lord when this was the choice of the Devil and all those who chose to serve him.




Imagine an Israelite turned Christian who received the revelation of Jesus Christ and realized that he did not have to observe all the "shadows" anymore since the real thing (Jesus) had come and was now his. Paul the Apostle comes to mind.



"Was Jonah in the belly of the whale forever?" Uh, no. Where did the Scriptures say "forever"? The Bible said 3 days. Just like Jesus in the grave. Where did you get this "forever"? What's your point?




Uh,,,No. Common sense, Rae.

But you are drawing conclusions and reading into scripture when you say the following:



The rest of your post is the same type of thinking so I am going to end it here with this question.

What is the purpose of bringing pain and torture upon the wicked and then obliterating them? Why not just obliterate them? Why should they even stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. If God knows they are deserving of annihilation when they die, why doesn't he just annihilate them, then. Why is everything else necessary? Judgement, embarrassment, shame, pain, torture, etc? Is God satisfying some sadistic urge before He annihilates the wicked? If they will be obliterated and have no remembrance of why they were judged, then what is the purpose of their judgement and pain?

The Bible also says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". But we know this does not mean to be annihilated. It means that the soul that sins shall die spiritually. Now, Jesus says there are two deaths. The first death, we actually survive and live. Our body dies, but our spirit lives.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death, Jesus is talking about "hurt" which is pain and suffering, not annihilation.

Axehead

I didn't add Saints, both those texts point to the very same event. The wicked are emcompassing the camp of the Saints, and the city. Revelation 14:10-11 (I only said 14:10 last post, apologies) and Revelation 20:9-10.

God most certainly loves the wicked, God did not want any of them to die. What he does not love, is their wicked acts. He does not love when one knows they are working iniquity, and continue therein, that God does not love. But God is love. You can understand that, by looking out the window every day. God blesses the wicked too, with life, with sunshine, with rain on their crops and flowers. All this is designed to bring their attention to Him. He loves them, and would not like them to die.

About the shadows, that is my point exactly. It was a statute they were told to obersve "forever", which only meant "forever" unitl Christ came. Not literally forever.

Jonah himself, said he was in the depths "forever".

Jonah 2:5-6 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Was Jonah literally down there for ever? No, he was not.

That was my point, it's common sense, of course forever was not "for all eternity". That is the point I was trying to make. When reading Revelation quite literally, you take it quite literally to mean "They shall burn for all eternity!" Scripture does not say that.

The purpose of burning is that they must suffer the consequences of their deeds. Simply immediate death would not get rid of divine wrath. They would not have paid for their deeds. They would not have been convinced that they deserve the punishment coming to them, they must see the error of their ways. Before they die, they must understand the reward of the righteous, and the reward of the wicked. It is the same for the Saints, we must behold their reward before we enter into eternity. The entire universe it behold the judgement and condemnation of sin before God. Scripture has said, affliction, that being sin, shall not rise up a second time. This is part of the protection of the Universe so that they sin not. Behold the reward of the wicked. Even we as humans can understand right now, that some people see the death penalty as the "easy way out". The claim is usually, "let them live with that guilt, that is punishment itself". When you are sentenced, you are sentenced for a specific amount of time. However, when the sentence is over, they are not to live. They are to die, it is to be the end of them. This is the second death.

Being hurt with the second death still is the second death. We die once, all of us, naturally (or unnatural, as sin is unnatural). Then we are ressurected. Then the righteous go onto life eternal. Then after 1,000 years the wicked are ressurected, judged before the universe, condemned before the universe, burnt, and then they become ashes. The punishment of the wicked is for us to behold.