Why do we need priests?

[CovenantPromise]

But for sure, due to the long history of Christianity and size and age of the RCC, there have been many saints which have come forth from that denomination.

 

[Pearl]

There are many unknown saints and not every person the Vatican says is a saint is. For instance Joan of Arc. We know what a woman's role is in scripture. They had to do damage control and so after deemed her a saint. She is not. And there are saints of Coptic orthodox and many, many other churches which were before the Roman Catholic denomination.That is fact. Now, for those who are against or new to the Catholic Church, it is enough to believe in scripture and know those who laid the ground work are saints that we can bank on. Once one grows in that truth , one is able to recognize a true saint, regardless of their denomination. But for sure the Catholic church does not have a monopoly on saints.

If one believes that then they deny Christian History.

All born again believers are saints. Even Joan of Arc if she was born again.

 

[amadeus]

I think people can be reckoned as rightous. If someone has lots of good deeds and only a few bad ones, I think he has more influence with Heaven than someone with more evil deeds and only a few good ones.

Consider a few scriptural examples:

Abram: "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." Gen 15:6

Lot: "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" II Peter 2:7-8

Called righteous, but that only before he was vexed and eventually fathered children by his own two daughters?

"Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." Gen 19:36

bawm Mow'ab (mo-awb); , Strong #: 4124

Moab = "of his father" n pr m

1. a son of Lot by his eldest daughter
2. the nation descended from the son of Lot n pr loc
3. the land inhabited by the descendants of the son of Lot

KJV Word Usage and Count
Moab 166
Moabites 15
ymm[nb Ben-`Ammiy (ben-am-mee'); Proper Name Masculine, Strong #: 1151

Ben-ami = "son of my people"

1. son of Lot, born to his second daughter, progenitor of the Ammonites

KJV Word Usage and Count
Benammi 1


Tamar: "And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more." Gen 38:26 This one is especially interesting considering that Tamar played the part of a prostituted to get the attention of her father-in-law. It worked and he called her, "more righteous". Are there then degrees of righteousness before God?

"Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked." Ex 23:27 Here among the "laws" given to Moses is an instruction for them Not to slay the righteous, which would mean they had to have an idea of what that meant... Hmmm?

Balaam: Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!" Num 23:10 Was Balaam's prayer answered in the way that he asked?

"Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them." Josh 13:22

I think if we are to judged by our deeds, someone with lots of good deeds can ask for some of his rewards now in this life. He can also ask on behalf of others. Thus Israel was told they would be getting the Land of Promise not for anything they had done but because of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

What was the "virtue" that Jesus had that could heal others?

It "overflowed" from Him. He himself was unable to contain or control it. Did He need to, or did He want to? Can we simply by being available, without forethought our own, be similarly used of God?

"Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?" Psalm 78:20 Here, seemingly even in his disobedience, Moses caused the Rock, filled with what the people needed,
to overflow. Jesus did not need to think about what He had or what He was doing. The woman touched the hem of his garment and only in that moment when the virtue flowed out [overflowed] of him was he aware of it.

Moses suffered for his disobedience but still the people were given life by the water from the Rock [Jesus]. Jesus suffered and was certainly struck by those who would kill him but the people were given Life.

"And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel." Isaiah 8:8[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[amadeus]

I don't believe those who have passed can even hear us. Why don't people ask the living to pray for them?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" Heb 12:1

Who is this "cloud of witnesses"? Perhaps they who already finished their course With the Lord and now are watching us? Do they have "eyes to see" us and not also "ears to hear" us?

 

[amadeus]

Absolutely we do. So what I don't understand is why people need or want to pray to other people who are no longer living in this world but are essentially dead albeit they may or may not be living spiritually in heaven.

Where is heaven if not within people who are walking in and with Him? What was it that Jesus prayed?

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" John 17:23

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21
Now perhaps we still only see the Kingdom as through a glass darkly, but really it is not so far away from us, is it? The problem is in our still dim or blurred vision, but should we not be approaching the "face to face", that which carnal men cannot see at all?

 

[CovenantPromise]

All born again believers are saints. Even Joan of Arc is she was born again.

Well that is your opinion. A born again believer is not simply someone who is baptized into the faith, but one who is born of Christ. And one born of Christ abides. That for a woman, is not leading a military revolt either. A Christian soldier's weapons are not carnal. It is bad enough that men are moved to war, that women too think they are called to such action. Are you saying women are not to sanctify men by their humility of faith, in meek servitude to Christ? When men fail , women too must? You believe what you want, and I will believe what I know.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
Paul's Apostolic Authority
…3For though we live in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. 4The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.…

 

[Pearl]

A born again believer is not simply someone who is baptized into the faith, but one who is born of Christ.

Absolutely! Whatever denomination or none that they belong to.

 

[CovenantPromise]

As I just said: "Sola Scriptura" is a tradition unique to some Protestant denominations.

2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Clearly Scripture Alone stands. It stands in the sense that, when men teach a doctrine and it is made a Dogma say, it must be found and upheld by the foundation.
1Corinthians 3:10-14
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,…

So doctrines are those things in which men build upon the foundation (Scripture). If a man builds something that is not found in the foundation (scripture) it is then wood, hay or straw. The foundation will consume it and it is burned up then by the Holy Spirit , which all scripture is inspired by.

13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

IMHO this is that DAY- the Noon Day of Rev.12, where all things are brought into God's Marvelous light. It is an hour of reckoning, which begins subtly like the onset of birth pains and will culminate to full on delivery and global tribulation.

Clearly , wood, hay and straw are not snatched out of the fire. For God does not preserve that which has no value. So men who have produced wood , hay and straw are NOT snatched out of the fire. But men who are like silver and gold- with dross which needs to be separated from them, are snatched out. First their imperfections are removed. Their imperfections however have been through venial sin not intentional sin (mortal sin/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). It is unintentional , and is removed through refinement by fire. Precious gems have no dross.

God Bless.
Yours truly,
DNM.

 

[Pearl]

Jesus taught us to pray to our Father in heaven not to saints or to Mary. So I will stick with his example and his teaching.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Clearly Scripture Alone stands. It stands in the sense that, when men teach a doctrine and it is made a Dogma say, it must be found and upheld by the foundation.
1Corinthians 3:10-14
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,…

So doctrines are those things in which men build upon the foundation (Scripture). If a man builds something that is not found in the foundation (scripture) it is then wood, hay or straw. The foundation will consume it and it is burned up then by the Holy Spirit , which all scripture is inspired by.

13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

IMHO this is that DAY- the Noon Day of Rev.12, where all things are brought into God's Marvelous light. It is an hour of reckoning, which begins subtly like the onset of birth pains and will culminate to full on delivery and global tribulation.

Clearly , wood, hay and straw are not snatched out of the fire. For God does not preserve that which has no value. So men who have produced wood , hay and straw are NOT snatched out of the fire. But men who are like silver and gold- with dross which needs to be separated from them, are snatched out. First their imperfections are removed. Their imperfections however have been through venial sin not intentional sin (mortal sin/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). It is unintentional , and is removed through refinement by fire. Precious gems have no dross.

God Bless.
Yours truly,
DNM.

Says a member of one of these Protestant denominations.

Note: I'm not dissing this beliefs at all. Such stating where/when it is believed. The original context of this being the different epistemological methodology between these Protestant denominations and Catholics. A Catholic trying to convince a non-Catholic believe something based on the authority of the Catholic church doesn't hold any water. Likewise a sola scriptura person trying to convince a non-sola-scriptura person based on sola-scriptura authority doesn't hold any water.

 

[Pearl]

Says a member of one of these Protestant denominations.

Note: I'm not dissing this beliefs at all. Such stating where/when it is believed. The original context of this being the different epistemological methodology between these Protestant denominations and Catholics. A Catholic trying to convince a non-Catholic believe something based on the authority of the Catholic church doesn't hold any water. Likewise a sola scriptura person trying to convince a non-sola-scriptura person based on sola-scriptura authority doesn't hold any water.

Would you agree that the authority of God supersedes that of the Catholic church?

 

[CovenantPromise]

Absolutely! Whatever denomination or none that they belong to.

1John 3:8-10
Children of God
…8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.…

You fail to realize that one must grow in their restoration. It is clear that men can forfeit that, just as Judas did. And if a man stumbles at just one part of the Law he breaks all the Law.

Are you showing favoritism/partiality for the faults of the RCC, because it is the RCC?
James 2:9-11
A Warning against Favoritism
…9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.…
Again concerning not only Joan but all who would call themselves Christian then-who took up carnal weapons:
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
Paul's Apostolic Authority
…3For though we live in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. 4The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.…

Pearl, I did not write the Law/Rules. I can only uphold them. Will I fall ?(God Forbid) , but I will not teach a doctrine other than the one I have received from God's predestined Elect. Do men fall short? Of Course. But I will not add to myself the sin of lying about what the written word says to uphold for any denomination regardless of its power . Christ is TRUTH, and I respect that. Will I uphold Him (Truth), yes.....to the end?, that is my desire -May God prevail!

 

[amadeus]

Hi John!
From what I have read in Ecc. 9, we all have the same destiny, both good and evil. Yes, we will die physically but we will all live somewhere in eternity...whether it be heaven or hell with the un-righteous and Satan and his demons and the beast or...just, poof - gone as in at least one definition simply means to perish...not settled on the hell thing yet, lol.

Ecclesiastes 9:1-6

9
1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good,
so with the sinful;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live and afterward they join the dead.
4 Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun."
:)

Consider where Solomon was in spite of his God given wisdom. He spoke wisely of men and the ways of men and the righteousness of men walking in a time when the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured in such a fullness as it was beginning in Acts chapter 2. Yes, he was inspired by God to write, and his message at least double in meaning, what are the two messages from God? Remember the trees about which Adam and Eve were advised:

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Gen 2:9

Can we read the written words of Solomon from the stand point of either tree depending upon when and where we are.

This is perhaps where our friend @Episkopos sees the difference between righteousness and holiness. Surely many people in OT are described as being righteous, such as Lot, without even having received what is now available to whosoever will.

 

[amadeus]

I have never found anything in the bible to support some of the more extreme teachings of the Catholic church. I think a lot of it is just based on somewhat tenuous theories. But Catholics seem to prefer to believe unquestionably them rather than look further into the matter.

This of course is true of many Catholics in my own experience... but it is also true of many Protestants in my own experience.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Says a member of one of these Protestant denominations.

Note: I'm not dissing this beliefs at all. Such stating where/when it is believed. The original context of this being the different epistemological methodology between these Protestant denominations and Catholics. A Catholic trying to convince a non-Catholic believe something based on the authority of the Catholic church doesn't hold any water. Likewise a sola scriptura person trying to convince a non-sola-scriptura person based on sola-scriptura authority doesn't hold any water.

Then it would seem that Timothy and Paul's words are useless according to what you say.

It is just this simple, if a Catholic is trying to convince a protestant of something concerning the Catholic Church he/she better be able to show with scripture that their doctrine is founded upon TRUTH. If God did not give us this measure (ROD) then anything can be passed off as God's Word, divinely inspired- Revelation, personal and/or promoted by an assembly. ALL doctrine must be supported by the foundation, that according to Timothy and Paul, not me. I did not lay the foundation, I simply believe all that is written in it. Doctrines are the sum of the language of the equation (scripture). Like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Revelation/apparitions must be tested and we are told to do so in the written word.
1John 4:1-2
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,…

An apparition which makes a pronouncement of something (if true) ....for instance like "I am the Immaculate Conception" it may be the SUM of something. And the answer is upheld by the foundation . We are being challenged to seek out the written word to find the equation of that sum. We must always lean upon the Beloved to know whether an apparition is heavenly or not. When men, take it upon themselves to create a doctrine and call it a Dogma (an authoritative truth) he must be sure that the Authority is Christ and not self. Otherwise he creates division and conflict amongst the faithful.

In conclusion , I will also argue that Protestants......when you PROVE a Dogma/doctrine of the Catholic Church to be true, with scripture alone, they deny their own anthem and reject that truth. It would seem they conveniently forgo scripture alone if what you show does not support their narrative. They then fall among the group of those who: Matthew 15:7-9
Tradition and Worship
…7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you: 8‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. 9They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’”…
And when you prove something false within the Catholic Church and even Orthodoxy you get the most vile hatred spewed at the written word. As I said I did not lay the foundation I only uphold it, it is the STANDARD.

God Bless.
Yours truly,
DNM.

 

[Pearl]

This of course is true of many Catholics in my own experience... but it is also true of many Protestants in my own experience.

I agree, but the RCC seems to have more tenuous dogma than other denominations.

 

[Giuliano]

2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Clearly Scripture Alone stands. It stands in the sense that, when men teach a doctrine and it is made a Dogma say, it must be found and upheld by the foundation.
1Corinthians 3:10-14
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,…

So doctrines are those things in which men build upon the foundation (Scripture). If a man builds something that is not found in the foundation (scripture) it is then wood, hay or straw. The foundation will consume it and it is burned up then by the Holy Spirit , which all scripture is inspired by.

13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

IMHO this is that DAY- the Noon Day of Rev.12, where all things are brought into God's Marvelous light. It is an hour of reckoning, which begins subtly like the onset of birth pains and will culminate to full on delivery and global tribulation.

Clearly , wood, hay and straw are not snatched out of the fire. For God does not preserve that which has no value. So men who have produced wood , hay and straw are NOT snatched out of the fire. But men who are like silver and gold- with dross which needs to be separated from them, are snatched out. First their imperfections are removed. Their imperfections however have been through venial sin not intentional sin (mortal sin/blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). It is unintentional , and is removed through refinement by fire. Precious gems have no dross.

God Bless.
Yours truly,
DNM.

Trying to understand Scripture by itself poses difficulties if we abandon all other authority.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Pearl]

Trying to understand Scripture by itself poses difficulties if we abandon all other authority.

I think we all need the authority of the Holy Spirit to fully understand scripture, whether his is working in us directly or through the teachings of others who have received enlightenment from the same Holy Spirit. Sometimes He can show me directly what a passage means and then I have the authority to share that with others.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Trying to understand Scripture by itself poses difficulties if we abandon all other authority.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

That is right, it is by the Holy Spirit that the scriptures are understood. And yes men tend to self interpret. But the Holy Spirit is very convincing , especially to those who are Christ's . "I know mine and mine know me". Clearly TRUTH is recognized by those who TRULY LOVE Christ.

And still yet , what you post of the scriptures, does not delete out what Paul and Timothy said, but simply expounds upon and upholds what they said. Scripture alone , no matter what, is what we need to uphold doctrines- is the point. You will find that properly interpreted scripture will be like a sword to those who reject truth. There is a difference that is felt when the Holy Spirit is in the driver's seat.

God Bless

 

[CovenantPromise]

I agree, but the RCC seems to have more tenuous dogma than other denominations.

Not true. As a matter of fact, even though there are two trains of thought within the RCC- Traditional and Ecumenicalism , it holds a lot of gold and precious gems.(Not denying that there are some falsehoods). The Truths- they were introduced by the little ones of that assembly in the Tradition handed down to them over the many centuries. What ones are in question for you?

By the grace of God, I have been given insight to His written word. And the Catholics can rejoice in what they have been given as well as the Orthodox and believe it or not- (you Catholics and Orthodox), Protestants hold some silver doctrine in knowledge , that too is very useful in bringing about solidarity of faith. What is held by all can bring about that one mindedness that is paramount for the body.

Philippians 2:1-3
One in Christ
1Therefore if you have any encouragement in Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves.…

Romans 16:16-18
Avoid Divisions
16Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send you greetings. 17Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.…

Christ is not about division amongst believers , satan is. The only division there should be is between the wheat and the weeds.
Again; "I know mine and mine know Me".
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!

Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who leads an undisciplined life that is not in keeping with the tradition you received from us.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
Take note of anyone who does not obey the instructions we have given in this letter. Do not associate with him, so that he may be ashamed.

So clearly the lack of unity amongst us all is not sown by Christ, but by men who did not lean upon the Beloved to make their doctrines. And those weed doctrines are peppered amongst all denominations. Some have more than others , but no doubt all have weeds.

For me, I have a great Love for my Saviour. But most importantly He has loved me . I have been studying for many years in order to understand all this division. I stopped and decided to think others greater than myself. I thought " I am going to listen to what everyone is saying and not just brush them off, on behalf of a denominational line". Our loyalty after all is toward Truth, not self-righteousness and empty pride that wants to dismiss another.
Philippians 2:3-
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

I have chosen to sit down and study from all and then pray asking the Holy Spirit to guide me in my learning. I get it (LOVE) it helps us to find the answers needed to unite us all.

God Bless and Peace in Christ Jesus,
DNM.