Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[St. SteVen]

It's just a personal attack on me, so don't sweat it.

Right, like -- "The "word" in the verse is rhéma, not logos. - FYI" is a personal attack. - LOL

/

 

[atpollard]

Yes, that is true. But that is not the message of OSAS.

This is the message of Once Saved Always Saved that I am familiar with:

"Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:37-40 [NASB]

• The FATHER gives.
• The SON raises.
• ALL of them ... every one ... none will be lost.

As for HOW: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB] and "for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:13 NASB] ... IE.: GOD does it!

 

[mailmandan]

Some of use want to be like Naaham and find other ways around some of Gods teaching cause it does not fit our understanding so instead of trusting in his word we say it can tot be because it didn't say it here regardless of the fact it did say it there. So being it does not say it every time that does nullify the times it does say it. Seriously is that good reasoning? How many times does he have to tell you before you can believe??

We all big boys here let us reason since-able and take God at his word Let's not be like Naaham because we see he had to give in and do it the way he was told. Obedience to the word is what we are to seek not try to find loop holes for as Naaham found out it does not work

I did not say that the story of Naaham was for his salvation I used it to show that sometimes God uses a earthly vehicle to bring about his desire. In the case of Naaham the only way he could be cleansed was to dip 7 times in the river Jordan. No it was not a salvation event but and issue that he had to obey God and do as he was told in order to get the cleansing there was no other way but to trust and obey.

Then I pointed out out that for us we are told
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So just as Naaham had to trust in the way God said so do we if we want to be cleansed of our sin. God Through the spirit through Peter told us of what we must do to have our sin remitted and to receive the spirit. We mu like Naaham trust and obey what God has said.

But we don't we have to teach that is not what God has desired it is this way instead it can't be that way for that is a works based salvation it is not of faith alone so it has to be wrong it can not mean what it says.

Salvation by faith + water baptism or salvation by faith + any other work is salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. In the case of Naaman, he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river and was healed of leprosy, yet no sins were remitted for Naaman here and he was not even a believer at first, so we can't use this example in support of your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 which nullifies Acts 10:43-47. I'm not looking to get around anything or fit a preconceived understanding.

Also, we have an example of Jesus healing a man from leprosy and no water is found there. Acts 5:12 - And it happened when He was in a certain city, that behold, a man who was full of leprosy saw Jesus; and he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” 13 Then He put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” Immediately the leprosy left him. 14 And He charged him to tell no one, “But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded.”

 

[atpollard]

Pretty sure that's NOT what it means. - LOL

If it was logos would ask if FAITH is unavailable the blind? (of course not, I hope)

/

Logos or logos ... can't the "Word" ("Logos") also be the second person of the Godhead? Both the words and Who the words represent.

I was mostly teasing about rhéma (spoken word) ... but as long as we are discussing fine points of Greek: can the spoken word (rhéma) also represent the power/authority of the person ... "Him" in this case?

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the message of Once Saved Always Saved that I am familiar with:

"Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:37-40 [NASB]

• The FATHER gives.
• The SON raises.
• ALL of them ... every one ... none will be lost.

Right.
Unfortunately OSAS is used as a derogatory term for "eternal security".
The opposite would be "eternal INsecurity". Who wants that?

We cannot, by an act of our own will, undo what only God could do in the first place.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I was mostly teasing about rhéma (spoken word) ... but as long as we are discussing fine points of Greek: can the spoken word (rhéma) also represent the power/authority of the person ... "Him" in this case?

Sure.
"They overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony." (if memory serves)

Romans 10:17 NIV
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

/

 

[Godslittleservant]

Salvation by faith + water baptism or salvation by faith + any other work is salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. In the case of Naaman, he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river and was healed of leprosy, yet no sins were remitted for Naaman here and he was not even a believer at first, so we can't use this example in support of your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 which nullifies Acts 10:43-47. I'm not looking to get around anything or fit a preconceived understanding.

Also, we have an example of Jesus healing a man from leprosy and no water is found there. Acts 5:12 - And it happened when He was in a certain city, that behold, a man who was full of leprosy saw Jesus; and he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” 13 Then He put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” Immediately the leprosy left him. 14 And He charged him to tell no one, “But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded.”

Salvation by faith + water baptism or salvation by faith + any other work is salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. In the case of Naaman, he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river and was healed of leprosy, yet no sins were remitted for Naaman here and he was not even a believer at first, so we can't use this example in support of your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 which nullifies Acts 10:43-47. I'm not looking to get around anything or fit a preconceived understanding.

See just as you are not hearing the teaching of what baptism in Christ name is and accomplishes you are not hearing me either. I am not saying that Naaham was seeking salvation that is not in view the obedience to Gods will is and that is the comparison I mam making.

Yes Naaham was not connected to salvation but he could only receive cleansing if he submitted to God's will.That is when he was healed when he gave in and done as God had instructed. Yes not a salvation issue but the example of obedience can be applied to Gods plan of salvation to us.

When Peter preached Christ and him crucified in Acts 2 they believed and asked what they must do it was answered Acts 2:38 that is what was told them so like Naaham that is what we must do is have faith that God is going to remit our sin in this act of baptism just as we are told we must do to have our sin remitted. We can fight against it if we want but until we submit to Gods will it does us no good just like with Naaham. His wasn't a salvation issue but ours is. It is an obedience issue we must obey the teaching just as Naaham had to obey his instruction.


Acts 2:38 does not nullify Acts 10:43-48 we just have to understand the difference in the spirit coming upon verses the spirit within once we realize there is a difference then we can become to better understand what you are missing in Acts 10:43-48

Acts 5:12 like with the story of Naaham is not salvation like you said but it is an obedience example with Naaham but a teaching sign for the guy in Acts 5 but there is only one teaching of the baptism in Christ name. Is it from man or of God?

 

[Godslittleservant]

Mailmandan just curious how would you say one gets the indwelling spirit?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The opposite would be "eternal INsecurity". Who wants that?

Jesus Christ says... if one does not abide IN CHRIST, baring fruit, they will be cut of and cast in to the fire (see John 15)

According to Jesus... the One Who decides who gets in to Heaven and who does not.... the only way to be secure is to abide IN CHRIST.

The OSAS peoples teach this is works based doctrine cause they like to leave to door open to be able to do a little sin, you know... get all freaky deaky on the weekends and still believe they are saved!

We cannot, by an act of our own will, undo what only God could do in the first place.

That's not was Gal 6:7,8 says... among others...

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same. Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins
*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross. One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. (abide In Christ!)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (man whores), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (These things, and all sin, must be confessed and forsaken to avoid going to hell!)

Revelation 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders, or their sorceries, or their sexual immorality, or their thefts

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (see 2 Corinthians 5:15 says….Jesus died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.)

Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Those that Turned Away from the Lord

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

 

[amigo de christo]

There is saying " I believe", brother and then there is living like one really believes every word God has spoken !

Just as Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness, so too must we.

I recently heard a man speak about True Conversion & False Conversion, and why many lay claim to something they never counted the cost of to themselves, nor the price Jesus paid!

Be encouraged dear sister . I truly am led to remind and encourage us all about a wonderful reminder .
Sit back and enjoy the beauty . test every word i say against biblical doctrine .
THE COST .
That is what i want to expound on today .
THE COST and seeing all loss as only GAIN GAIN GAIN to WIN CHRIST .
Test it .
I see the cost , though i have not yet experienced the whole cost .
BUT I DO SEE IT and my heart embraces it and i do pray to GOD for strength through it all .
TO ME , i see the cost as HE WHO LOSES HIS LIFE shall FIND IT .
IN other words it just dont matter to me what this world is gonna do to me .
SO LONG as i have CHRIST all the loss that occurs in this world , IS ONLY GAIN TO ME .
prison , beatings , even death , WILL BE GAIN TO ME for JESUS SAKE .
GAIN . NOT LOSS . GAIN . ponder on that .
TO me if living for CHRIST means that even one day soon i will be put in prison and beat , lose my house
and everything , OH IT WOULD BE ONLY GAIN TO KNOW HIM MORE .
IF my life is ended for HIS SAKE , EVEN THAT IS GREAT GAIN . THERE IS truly nothing that can compare
TO KNOWING CHRIST and KNOWING HIM EVEN MORE . what the world sees as loss , THAT I SEE as only GAIN
for CHRIST . My mind makes zero sense to most folks . YOU SEE to most
losing things of this world they see as LOSS , but to me IF IT BE FOR THE SAKE OF CHRIST , THEN ITS GAIN GAIN GAIN .
To be put in prison most see as loss , as loss of freedom . BUT IF IT BE FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS CHRIST
I SEE IT as GAIN GAIN GAIN to only suffer for him and to know HIM MORE .
AND IF THEY END MY LIFE , ITS ONLY GAIN GAIN GAIN it for JESUS SAKE .
WE WIN SISTER and there is nothing they can do to remove our hope , our joy FROM US . FOR THE LORD , HE IS OUR HOPE
HE IS OUR JOY and no blade of man , no nothing they can to do us can seperate us FROM CHRIST .
AND TO ME , WELL that iS ALL that matters . THIS WORLDgonna do as its gonna do
and they can only do to us what GOD ALLOWS and IF HE ALLOWS IT , WELL HE WORKS EVEN THAT TO OUR GOOD .
MY MIND IS FREE SISTER . NO fear of man or what he can do . THE COST WILL BE THE COST .
BUT no matter the cost of what we lose for HIM , IT WILL NEVER COMPARE TO THE GLORY we shall recieve ON HIS DAY .
I GOT ONE GOAL in life . TO LIVE FOR JESUS CHRIST no matter the cost . AND YES i know WE GONNA NEED GOD
to get us through whatever we face . HE ALONE is my hope . NO ruby , no gold , no nothing can compare
to CHRIST . NOW FEEL FREE TO EXAMINE THIS WELL .

 

[Ritajanice]

Mailmandan just curious how would you say one gets the indwelling spirit?

God draws us to Jesus, he brings us to repentance and Godly sorrow....it’s by the Mercy and Grace of God that we become Born Again, as he’s indwelling us we are baptised in the Spirit.

He comes in and takes up residence, he testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

It’s a supernatural experience that only God can do....it blew my mind..you will never forget it....our spirit recognises his straight away....

Remember we came from God...therefore it makes sense that our spirit recognises His.

Incredible...and I thank him everyday for His Mercy and Grace...that he showed me over 31 years ago.

This is my testimony and belief.

I believe becoming Born Again is different for everyone...we all experience the birthing in the Spirit differently.

Mine blew my socks off.

 

[St. SteVen]

... blew my socks off.

 

[Ritajanice]

View attachment 37205

 

[MatthewG]

This is true it cannot be found but you can have assurance of salvation if YOU WALK IN THE SPIRIT funny how the bible talks a lot about if you do isn't . If you believe ,if you walk in the spirit, if you trust in my words, and so on and so on.

Amen.

 

[atpollard]

Mailmandan just curious how would you say one gets the indwelling spirit?

God the Father hands Him off to God the Son, who then Gibb-slaps Him into a "stiff necked people*" that just never seem to do anything the easy way. ;)

* Children of Adam.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't recall seeing anything about Gibbs in the New Testament?

Where is that exactly?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Why does one not like the idea of OSAS ?
Well i hate OSAS as well, only because it's directed wrongly !

I do believe in the fact of OSAS in fact ! but one has to be truly born again in fact, outside of that you can loose your salvation, not that that is totally gone in the sense that one may still have a spark within even if one does not recognize it ones self ? but such could burn again ? The weeds of this world strangle such faith, for this world is full of delusions and deceptions. The Truly Saved have a handle on such ! But if one does not have a handle on such then you are not Saved in fact but are Lost.

Their is no OLAL ? Once Lost Always Lost ! if you once had faith in Jesus. one could stay lost however, but for hope that that spark that was once within is rekindled, as many have gone down such a path and came back so much stronger that most others ?

 

[St. SteVen]

The Truly Saved...

As opposed to what?

/

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It it were not possible for the truly saved to lose their salvation, then the Lord would not have put all those warnings in His Word.