Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?
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That would be Jesus living in me and through me, Galatians 2:20.would the real righteous person please stand up
You should pay attention to the emphasis given in (Rom. 5:12-19). Two people are emphasized. Adam and Christ.
(5:12) "by one man sin entered"
(5:15) "through the offence of one many be dead"
(5:15) "much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man"
(5:16) "not as it was by one that sinned"
(5:16) "for the judgement was by one to condemnation"
(5:17) "by one man's offence death reigned by one"
(5:17) "the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one"
(5:18) "by the offense of one judgement came upon all men"
(5:18) "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men"
(5:19) "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"
(5:19) "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"
Concerning 'made' in (5:19):
"The significant word {kathistemi} twice here rendered "made", does not signify to 'work a change upon' a person or thing but to 'establish', constitute', or 'ordain', as will be seen from all the places where it is used." ( A Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset,Brown, Eerdmans, 1990, p. 222)
*Where I quoted the word 'kathistemi', above, in the commentaries wording it was in the Greek symbols.
"For [just] as by the one man's disobedience the many [the rest, all] were made [rather 'were set down in the class of'] sinners, so [also] by the obedience of the one [Christ] the many [who are in him] shall be made [shall be set down in the class of the] righteous. The word 'made' is not causative, but declarative. Those in Adam were justly declared sinners, because thereby they were naturally such (Eph. 2:3): Those in Christ are declared righteous graciously, because they are so in Him. The future 'shall be made' looks back to the other future in the seventeenth verse,'shall reign', that explains it." (The Epistle To The Romans, James M. Stifler, Moody Press, 1983, p.80)
Stranger
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yes it is and it all belongs to HIM we are just simply benefactors of this righteousness.. none of us can produce it none of us can live it w/o Christ and the Holy spirit .. you 2 remind me of 2 bulls in 2 separate fields bellowing at each other .if your saved you been justified declared righteous just as if you had never sinned . he them sanctified you set you apart for service from that point on it is a work in progress .never ending . anything we do to try to produce or to make us look holier than thou .is a s filthy rags a discarded sanitary napkin
Yes; however it is also true that the righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9) is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).
Thank you for putting some effort into your response.
Two scripture passages to go (for you to answer).
I will say about the above that the following scriptures apply:
1Ti 6:3, If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2Ti 2:14, Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
Because of the above scripture, I prefer not to argue about the hidden meanings of words in the original Greek or Hebrew. I take the scripture at face value; for I believe that the apostles used great plainness of speech when they penned the holy scriptures (2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv)).
Therefore I accept the English meaning of what I read in English, trusting that those who translated the kjv did so in reliance upon the Holy Spirit.
The Scriptures you give say nothing, or prove nothing, about imputation. You are using them to dispute other Scripture, not me. Those who translated the KJV did so in reliance upon the Holy Spirit. You are making 'made' say something they never intended.
Why should I address the other Scriptures you gave, which I already have, when you give such a worthless reply here. You have nothing. All you can say, which is all these verses you give say, is I am right and you are wrong. What a piece of work you are.
But, I will address the Scriptures you give. Remember first of all that I told you that man has a righteousness that he can glory in. It is that of his own good works. Before man, it is good. My how they say, 'he is a good man'. Just like Abraham could say for his good works, because he did have them. (Rom. 4:2) "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Why? Because mans righteousness is as filthy rags. God will not accept mans glorying in works reward righteousness.
The 'righteousness' of (Matt. 5:6) is not the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. The Sermon on the Mount, (Matt. 5-7), is the law of the Kingdom. That Kingdom which was promised Israel to come, which they rejected. It is law nonetheless. And more severe then the Mosaic Law. The 'beatitudes in (5:1-12) speak to the yearning of those who are under the law of Moses. The relief of which is promised in the Kingdom rule of Christ during the Millennium. For that is the Kingdom He came to establish. Israel will then again be under the bond of the Covenant and law. And these 'beattitudes' of (Matt. 5:1-12) will be realized. In other words, the righteousness spoken of here will be that in accordance to law. Throughout history they have not been able to come close to having it or displaying it. In the Kingdom they will. Christ is present on the Throne. satan is not present.
But, even that is not the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is still the righteousness of the Law. And we who are the Church, when we walk in the Spirit, fulfill the righteousness of the law. (Rom. 8:3-4) We 'fulfill' it but it does nothing to find us acceptable before God. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son...condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us....." Just like with Abraham, we may glory in it all we want, but not before God. (Rom. 4:2)
This is not the imputed righteousness of Christ. And it is the imputed righteousness of Christ that Paul wanted. (Philippians 3:9) "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
Stranger
This was true of Barnabas as an example. I would ask whether Barnabas' goodness was of his own self or whether it was of Jesus Christ. And I would ask also whether it was visible in the sense that it was a practical righteousness.
Act 11:22, Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Act 11:23, Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
Act 11:24, For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
I would add, that if anyone's righteousness is as filthy rags, that it is filthy rags before man as well as God.
There is a righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9) that is not filthy rags; but instead it is fine linen, clean and white.
Rev 19:8, And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
I would point out that in direct context of the Beatitudes, Jesus said the following:
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
I would contend that this righteousness, which is greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees, is not of the law; but that nevertheless it is a practical righteousness.
Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The exceeding righteousness which is by faith comes apart from the law; and yet both the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed:
Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
This is manifested in that those who come to faith in Christ are transformed from the inside out:
2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
There is no law against bearing the fruit of the Spirit (and therefore if we bear the fruit of the Spirit, we will not be violating any just law):
Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I would contend that the righteousness spoken of in Philippians 3:9 is not only imputed/positional; but is also imparted and practical.
The apostle John warns us against being deceived when he writes the following:
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Therefore, I believe that John is saying that it is a deception to believe that we can have an imputed/positional righteousness if it does not also become practical, even imparted, in due process of time.
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Your use of (Rom. 5:19), (Matt. 5:6), and (1 John 3:7) to develop a legalistic system over the Christian is what is being addressed here. You keep repeating these verses as they are your pillars holding up your legalistic doctrine.
I have already taken away one pillar, (Rom. 5:19). I did so in post #(343). To which you simply had nothing to offer other then I am going to keep believing what I want. Which I expect.
We are addressing now (Matt. 5:6). I said first of all, in #(348), that the Sermon on the Mount concerns the Law of the Kingdom. And the 'beatitudes' were the yearning of believing Israelites under law. The righteousness they desired was the righteousness under law. The relief of that yearning will be accomplished during the Kingdom reign. But the Kingdom, as the Sermon on the Mount reveals, is all law. It is the Mosaic law on steroids.
As blessings under the Mosaic Law were conditional, so are the blessing under the Kingdom Law. Read through (Matt. 5-7). You will not see 'Whosoever believeth shall be saved'. You will not find salvation by faith. You find law. You find 'whosoever does or does not' is threatened with hell or awarded heaven. (5:22) (5:45)
Christ openly declared the legalness of the Kingdom. (Matt. 5:19) "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." And even the 'golden rule' everyone loves to claim, Christ said, (Matt. 7:12), "this is the law and the prophets". Couldn't be clearer.
The 'beatitudes', (Matt. 5:3-11), from which you pull out (5:6) for a pillar for your legalism, are all under the legal system of the Kingdom. The merciful shall obtain mercy. The pure in heart shall see God. The peacemakers shall be the children of God. Nothing here of salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Interesting: compare that with your avatar. You boast of 'just by faith' yet turn to a legal system for that faith. Because you are legalistic, you naturally turn to this verse.
In (Matt. 5:20) Christ said, "...except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees taught the Law and made a show of keeping the Law. But they did not keep the law. (Matt. 23:3) This was the righteousness the believing Jew yearned for in (5:6). That which the Pharisees taught. That will be obtainable in the Millennial Kingdom. The believing will have righteousness imputed to them. And they will be able to have a personal righteousness that is greater than the Pharisees. But that personal righteousness is still not the imputed righteousness. And it is attainable only under a legal system of the Kingdom and where satan has been locked up and Jesus Christ is ruling over the world in righteousness.
Concerning Barnabas: since there is none good but God, the goodness of Barnabas would still be his goodness, though it is the product of his being born-again, and walking in the Spirit. Even on your best day, your righteousness, your goodness is as filthy rags.
No, you are adding sin into the picture of ones righteousness. You are saying if I see sin in one then his righteousness is as filthy rags. God is saying your 'righteousness' is as filthy rags. Not the bad things you do. The good things you do.
You misuse (Philippians 3:9). It is speaking of imputed righteousness and not your righteousness. "not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" Are you willing to say that? Are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own? (Rev. 19:8) is imputed righteousness also. It is that which we are clothed upon.
All the other verses you quote are true and good. But they add nothing to your argument.
Stranger
In Revelation 22:11 it is written, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still"
If this is speaking of imputed righteousness only, and not imparted/practical righteousness, then it is not real rightouesness; it is merely put to the man's account. So how will he be righteous still? he is not righteous, it is only the fact that God is looking at him through rose-colored glasses.
You have not dealt with Matthew 5:6 and Romans 5:19 adequately; and I wait for you to attempt to deal with 1 John 3:7, for it is written, "The third time the sword shall deal double damage."
I would say that it does not matter what dispensation Matthew 5:6 is speaking of; for it relates a principle: that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled with righteousness. Is this limited to the millennial kingdom? I don't think so; because the Holy Spirit is given to us in today's world and I am going to make His fruit good so that the tree also might be considered to be good. We can consider that the Holy Spirit is good because when a person receives Him, he will bear good fruit. He is not going to continue to be a sinner and thus a bearer of bad fruit; for he is indwelt by a Spirit that is good. Therefore I say that because we have the prospect of receiving the Holy Spirit in today's world, we have the prospect of being filled with righteousness (for the Holy Spirit is righteousness; and to be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be filled with righteousness). Satan doesn't have to be in the bottomless pit for us to be able to live godly lives: for the Holy Spirit enables us to do so even in a dispensation where we still need to contend with him.
And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.
For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).
It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?
In 1 John 3:7,
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".
Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.
I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?
Little children, let no man deceive you.
If this is speaking of imputed righteousness only, and not imparted/practical righteousness, then it is not real rightouesness; it is merely put to the man's account. So how will he be righteous still? he is not righteous, it is only the fact that God is looking at him through rose-colored glasses.
You have not dealt with Matthew 5:6 and Romans 5:19 adequately; and I wait for you to attempt to deal with 1 John 3:7, for it is written, "The third time the sword shall deal double damage."
I would say that it does not matter what dispensation Matthew 5:6 is speaking of; for it relates a principle: that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled with righteousness. Is this limited to the millennial kingdom? I don't think so; because the Holy Spirit is given to us in today's world and I am going to make His fruit good so that the tree also might be considered to be good. We can consider that the Holy Spirit is good because when a person receives Him, he will bear good fruit. He is not going to continue to be a sinner and thus a bearer of bad fruit; for he is indwelt by a Spirit that is good. Therefore I say that because we have the prospect of receiving the Holy Spirit in today's world, we have the prospect of being filled with righteousness (for the Holy Spirit is righteousness; and to be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be filled with righteousness). Satan doesn't have to be in the bottomless pit for us to be able to live godly lives: for the Holy Spirit enables us to do so even in a dispensation where we still need to contend with him.
And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.
For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).
It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?
In 1 John 3:7,
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".
Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.
I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?
Little children, let no man deceive you.
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I showed you that the Sermon on the Mount, (Matt. 5-7) is nothing but Law. I did that because that is where your pillar of (5:6) lives. Do you agree or disagree? Is it Law or not?
Stranger
Even if it is, have you considered Romans 8:4 (kjv), Romans 8:7;
Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10 (kjv), Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6;
Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16?
I say to you truly that even if Matthew 5:6 is law (while I believe it is a promise); it is not to be discounted because of it.
Also, the Sermon on the Mount is to be obeyed.
Jesus taught that those who do not obey the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49) are like those who build houses on sand...and when the storms of life come, their houses will fall, and great will be the fall of them.
Jesus taught that those who do not obey the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49) are like those who build houses on sand...and when the storms of life come, their houses will fall, and great will be the fall of them.
@Stranger,
And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.
For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).
It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?
In 1 John 3:7,
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".
Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.
I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?
Little children, let no man deceive you.
And Romans 5:19 and 1 John 3:7 are to be taken together (while I still expect you to deal with 1 John 3:7 as the third of three verses that I have been giving to you to contemplate). In Romans 5:19, through the obedience of one many are made righteous. This is not only a declaration of righteousness without an actual righteousness being present in the person's life.
For even with the concept that we are declared righteous apart from actually being righteous, you must deal with the concept that it is impossible for God to lie (a biblical concept, see Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). And since this is the case, if God says someone is righteous, they are actually righteous. (He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17) thus creating the reality of the thing that He has now declared).
It all comes down to what you think actual righteousness is. Is it practical and is it relevant? Does it work itself out in our behaviour? Or, is God telling a giant fib in saying that the person is righteous when in all reality he continues to be the worst of sinners in the practical sense?
In 1 John 3:7,
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Please expound upon this verse word by word, and explain to me how you think this is speaking of mere imputed righteousness in light of the word in the middle, "doeth".
Because I believe that it defines a righteous person as someone who lives out righteousness in a practical way.
I think that in order to come up with the concept that this verse is speaking of mere imputed righteousness, you may indeed have to change or pervert the verse itself. Perhaps the original Greek renders it differently?
Little children, let no man deceive you.
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It is not a matter of how but of who.
In Romans 7:18 (kjv), Paul had it wrong: his question had to do with how to perform what is right I do not find.
In Romans 7:24 he got the question right, in asking, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Our living righteously, therefore, is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ.
It has to do with the fact that I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me (Galatians 2:20).
We have as our schoolmaster the moral tenets of the Sermon on the Mount, the Sermon on the Plain, by virtues exalted in holy scripture, and the law of the Old Testament; and are taught by those moral tenets what it means to live by love. Once we come to faith (and once we have received the love of the Lord), we do not need those moral precepts any longer, but will live by them because we have the Holy Spirit and also bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. We will continue to retain the moral lessons that we learned when we were under the moral precepts of the law.
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I also do not hold Matthew 5:6 to be a pillar; but rather it is a strike (of the sword of the Spirit) against the immoral concept that righteousness cannot be imparted but is imputed only.
Strike one: Matthew 5:6
Strike two: Romans 5:19
Strike three: 1 John 3:7.
We are not talking baseball here.
The third time it shall do double damage.
@justbyfaith
You created a lot of smoke but didn't address my question. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?
Plus there was another question you failed to answer in #(351). Concerning (Philipians 3:9), are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own?
Stranger
You created a lot of smoke but didn't address my question. Is the Sermon on the Mount nothing but Law?
Plus there was another question you failed to answer in #(351). Concerning (Philipians 3:9), are you willing to say imputed righteousness is not your own?
Stranger
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