Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[Rich R]

I'm not disrespecting anybody.

reproof doesn't faze me.

I was simply explaining something that you and @RR144 didn't realize.

I understand and I appreciate your honesty.

Did you check out that list I gave you about who Jesus is in every book of the Bible? It's not something I made up, but I though it was pretty good. How about you? What do you think about it? Maybe it's something we can both agree on?

 

[M3n0r4h]

I understand and I appreciate your honesty.

Did you check out that list I gave you about who Jesus is in every book of the Bible? It's not something I made up, but I though it was pretty good. How about you? What do you think about it? Maybe it's something we can both agree on?

I didn't see a list.

no.

 

[Rich R]

I didn't see a list.

no.

In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
In Chronicles he is the King's son.
In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
In Job he is the daysman.
In Psalms he is the song.
In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
In Hosea he is the latter rain.
In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
In Jonah he is our salvation.
In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
In John he is Jehovah's Son.
In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
In Romans he is the believers' justification.
In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
In Timothy he is the faithful men.
In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
In James he is the royal law.
In Peter he is the pastor.
In John he is as we are.
In Jude he is the beloved.
In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Yes! One should also consider this:
Semitic- "relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic" - Mer.Web. dictionary.

How does the "anti-semitic" attitude of Israel, against its semitic Arab neighbors, justify the world to be antisemitic against Israel only?
Ans. the Jews are using reverse psychology on us all.

Everytime ZIONISM attacks their neighbors, they ARE just as much antisemitic, as any Gentile.

The Jews are NOT a "race", but rather they are a religion, that God has "cast out", being just as much equal to Islam.- Gal. 4:1-31.

Many never do think that through.
Nor do they dare entertain the simple fact that the "Jerusalem which now is", is one of only two prophetic "mothers" in all of the NT, and is the one that "is fallen", aka "cast out".
Study all of Gal. 4, and you will learn who it is, that is called MYSTERY, Babylon the Great, the MOTHER OF harlots.
It's a "mystery". Which is to say, it's not readily or easily seen by the natural man's mind of our flesh. Only by the mind of Christ within us, will it be revealed to born again Christians.

Anti-Semitic truly when one boils it down to the reality of what anti-Semitic truly is in fact ? but not the game that's played by the workings of the Devil has fostered, playing on a childish display, that is so wide a display that it's pathetic !

So in reality Anti-Semitic truly only really means that one is a racial prejudice moron ! not to mention the fact is Who hates the Semitic race ? for what ? That is not the issue at all in fact.
Worthy Christians have no issue with anyone's race in fact ! That is not the issue at all in fact and anyone who claims such is a total moron in fact !
But the carnal person has been played with lead astray, because this world is full of deceptions and delusions ! Jesus pointed such out in fact !
So we True Christians have established that the carnal mind is Lost ! That's a fact ! For they know not what they do because they are lead astray by the workings of the Devil in fact. so it's any wonder that the carnal display a moronic act regarding the topic Anti-Semitic ? for they are truly way off the mark !

So this display of Anti-Semitic is in fact a working of the Devil, regarding the carnal mind perception of such is totally clouded !
I see people go totally mental spastic attitude in regards to anything that could come up about something that may just touch on regards their regards Anti-Semite ? You see them stand up in a totally deranged spastic mode and want to fight anyone ! there display of malice is way off the chart ! and they are atheist in fact mainly Socialist dictating politically Correct wind bags that do not have a clue about Christianity worth mentioning in fact nor do they understand the OT Jews in fact !
For hush as they display a outright Nazi like attitude in fact, you can not talk to them for they are total possessed !

But if one was to call one out as an Anti-Christ ? you get a flat line response, people could not care less, if one was an Anti-Christ at all it would not raze an eyebrow !

I regard one being an Anti-Christ as a abomination !
And i regard Anti-Semitic as only a race in fact, nothing at all to do with regards relating to Religion in fact, but when it comes to religion i do understand where the majority of the Jews were lead astray, that is an issue, because they were lead astray ! I do not want anyone lead astray ! and that's why it's an issue in fact ! it's the religion that is corrupt ! and such is a curse over the people in fact ! for they are lost ! that's the issue that is at hand in fact !
But the Satanist play their cards just as they did with regards Jesus ! look what they did to him ? They do it to themselves ? it's such cunning that undermines the Kingdom of God ! for they undermine themselves and all around them in fact ! for they are truly an abomination ! for they have no true regard for God in fact !

Not to mention in the Christian Churches we can see the same workings that undermined the OT Jews from within in fact, this turns people away from the true faith that grows in Christ Jesus in fact. for they are not abiding in Christ Jesus in fact but are only religious dupes peddling religion ? with worldly works ! that are not in tune with the Holy Spirit at all. but for some stupid display relating to some form of spirit of mans madness, voodoo etc child molesting, sexual depravity ? following along with this world and the trends of fools and morons in fact.

I know what Zion truly means, but i also know a fake ! Satan plays such games in this world in fact.
Anyone who looks to the so called Zionist from the 1930's on is a total moron ! Hitler was totally in bed with that lot full on in fact !
They created the Nazis in fact and played them totally for the fools they were, for they are masters of deception ! why would a Christian swallow anything that an organisation that has no Grace would peddle.
I do not trust anyone who lacks Grace, for they are Lost in fact !

 

[Scott Downey]

Not saying you are wrong, but how do you see Romans chapter 11 fit in with all of that, particularly verses 1 & 2?

Rom 11:1-2,

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.​

​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

​

The rest of the chapter goes into more detail.

God has not cast away His people ever. Jesus told 'us' who are His people, He will never leave or forsake us. But the unbelieving Jews are not His people whom He foreknew as His own. And they prove they are not His when they reject Him when He appears.

Romans 11 is not in any conflict with who really are God's people. Earlier in Romans, Paul tells us only those born again according to the Spirit of God, are the people of God. People who do not have the Spirit of God living in them do not belong to Christ. Jesus told the unbelieving Jews they did not have the love of God in them and they were sons of the devil.
NO ONE is of God by blood inheritance according to the flesh.
But of course unbelievers can become saved, but only by the Spirit of God can they have faith in Christ.
First off a man must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of god, otherwise they will not believe, and it is God's choice whom He makes born of Him, not the will of a man.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 5
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men.
42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 11 also speaks of generations of Jews through time. The elect among the Jews do and did believe and obtain salvation, the rest though God was not pleased with them, and they were blinded by God. The mystery is why would God do that, well one reason is He is God and always does what is right. The other is the Jews rejecting Him sent the gospel to the nations.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

But as a NATION, the Jews were not totally rejected as they were beloved, but only because of the patriarchs. (fathers), like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Romans 11 is not speaking towards individual salvation but overlooking through time God's dealings with Jews generally. The unbelievers among them are still enemies for your sake. Esau was not one of the fathers of Israel. Only Jacob had God declared to be of God. Only a remnant of the Jews are saved, all through time down till today.

Romans 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

John 12, Christ speaking to the nation of the Jews

34 The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Who Has Believed Our Report?​

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said [f]when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Walk in the Light​

42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not [g]believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

 

[Rich R]

God has not cast away His people ever. Jesus told 'us' who are His people, He will never leave or forsake us. But the unbelieving Jews are not His people whom He foreknew as His own. And they prove they are not His when they reject Him when He appears.

Romans 11 is not in any conflict with who really are God's people. Earlier in Romans, Paul tells us only those born again according to the Spirit of God, are the people of God. People who do not have the Spirit of God living in them do not belong to Christ. Jesus told the unbelieving Jews they did not have the love of God in them and they were sons of the devil.
NO ONE is of God by blood inheritance according to the flesh.
But of course unbelievers can become saved, but only by the Spirit of God can they have faith in Christ.
First off a man must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of god, otherwise they will not believe, and it is God's choice whom He makes born of Him, not the will of a man.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 5
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men.
42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

I'm just learning about replacement theory, so forgive me if I get something wrong here. As I understand, it is alleges that Christians are the true Israel. I say that base upon the following article in Wikipedia. Of course, I understand Wikipedia is not necessarily the final word on the matter, but they did say this;

"Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Christian Church has succeeded ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians have succeeded the ancient Israelites as the people of God."​

Rom 11:25-27,

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

​

According to Romans, we can see that Israel is blinded only in part and only until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. That of course has to do with the "mystery" (better translated as "secret") that God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul. That is spoken of in both Romans and Ephesians. Basically it says that Christians are a whole new man, created from both Jew and Gentile. It doesn't mean that new man replaces either Jew or Gentile. God still has a plan for Israel (and Gentiles, more on that in a minute) and that plan will be executed after the Christians are caught up into the clouds with Jesus and the events of Revelation unfold. Of course, Isiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, et. al. also speak to those events.​

I also might point out that it won't be just Christians in the new earth. While true Christians have a guaranteed seat (1 Pet 1:4, et.al.), it is equally true that all men will be judged (Rev 20:11-55). That would include all Jews and Gentiles that did not confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from among the dead. If their names are in the book of life, they'll enjoy eternity with God and Jesus in a new Eden. But even prior to that judgement we see another group of people who gain eternal life (Rev 20:4-6). Of course Christians will have already been gather together with Christ as per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Regarding John 12, we must consider the ramifications of verse 42.

John 12:42,

Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:​

​

Not all Jews rejected Jesus, not even all Pharisees, not even the Pharisee of Pharisees, i.e. Paul. I'm not sure if that enters the equation, but there it is anyway.

Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, and all the other great men of God of the OT were not Christians, since it was simply not available when they lived. What happens to them? Are they no longer part of God's chosen people. In fact nobody that lived before Jesus could be saved if replacement theology is correct? That doesn't sound right when compared to the scriptures. I see many other holes in the replacement theology as I understand it (again, my understanding may be wrong), but I'll just leave it at that.

Am I I missing something here? I could be. I have a feeling you'll let me know. :) That's OK. In fact I welcome correction. I've revised many other beliefs before. But I do need to see it from the scriptures. I listen to others but I always verify what the say from the scriptures as did the Bereans who didn't even believe the great Apostle Paul without verifying it for themselves. Overall, I think it's a good policy.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm just learning about replacement theory, so forgive me if I get something wrong here.

Well, I don't think Scott is advocating any kind of replacement, so there's that right off the bat. If he is, then he's mistaken, but I don't think so. But sure, you are certainly forgiven for that... :)

As I understand, it is alleges that Christians are the true Israel.

All in Christ are of God's Israel, yes, but this does not exclude ethnic Jews throughout history. They also were of Israel and thus true Jews (refer to what Paul says about who true Jews are in Romans 2:28-29) if they were in Christ. The only difference between the Israelites of old is that they were looking forward to the coming Christ/Messiah and the cross, and we believers today are looking back on His first coming and the cross. We are all one people. Think of it this way:

• Old Israel: Those called by God, who repented of their sin and believed in the coming Christ
• New Israel; Those called by God, who repent of their sin and believe in Christ and including all those of Old Israel
• God's Israel: Old Israel plus New Israel.

So rather than any kind of "replacement," it is actually inclusion... and still a work in process, and this is exactly what Paul says to the Gentiles in his day:

"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)​

​

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

That should be enough clarification, I think.

Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, and all the other great men of God of the OT were not Christians, since it was simply not available when they lived.

This is absolutely incorrect. See above. As Jesus says, they had Moses and the Prophets (John 5:46). And Hebrews 11 is crystal clear about all the saints of old having been saved exactly as we are today, through faith. "...all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar..." Hebrews 11:13).

Are they no longer part of God's chosen people?

Of course they are. See above.

In fact nobody that lived before Jesus could be saved if replacement theology is correct?

That would be true, but thank God that is not the case. :)

Grace and peace to you, Rich!

 

[Scott Downey]

I'm just learning about replacement theory, so forgive me if I get something wrong here. As I understand, it is alleges that Christians are the true Israel. I say that base upon the following article in Wikipedia. Of course, I understand Wikipedia is not necessarily the final word on the matter, but they did say this;

"Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Christian Church has succeeded ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians have succeeded the ancient Israelites as the people of God."​

Rom 11:25-27,

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

​

According to Romans, we can see that Israel is blinded only in part and only until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. That of course has to do with the "mystery" (better translated as "secret") that God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul. That is spoken of in both Romans and Ephesians. Basically it says that Christians are a whole new man, created from both Jew and Gentile. It doesn't mean that new man replaces either Jew or Gentile. God still has a plan for Israel (and Gentiles, more on that in a minute) and that plan will be executed after the Christians are caught up into the clouds with Jesus and the events of Revelation unfold. Of course, Isiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, et. al. also speak to those events.​

I also might point out that it won't be just Christians in the new earth. While true Christians have a guaranteed seat (1 Pet 1:4, et.al.), it is equally true that all men will be judged (Rev 20:11-55). That would include all Jews and Gentiles that did not confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from among the dead. If their names are in the book of life, they'll enjoy eternity with God and Jesus in a new Eden. But even prior to that judgement we see another group of people who gain eternal life (Rev 20:4-6). Of course Christians will have already been gather together with Christ as per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Regarding John 12, we must consider the ramifications of verse 42.

John 12:42,

Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:​

​

Not all Jews rejected Jesus, not even all Pharisees, not even the Pharisee of Pharisees, i.e. Paul. I'm not sure if that enters the equation, but there it is anyway.

Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, and all the other great men of God of the OT were not Christians, since it was simply not available when they lived. What happens to them? Are they no longer part of God's chosen people. In fact nobody that lived before Jesus could be saved if replacement theology is correct? That doesn't sound right when compared to the scriptures. I see many other holes in the replacement theology as I understand it (again, my understanding may be wrong), but I'll just leave it at that.

Am I I missing something here? I could be. I have a feeling you'll let me know. :) That's OK. In fact I welcome correction. I've revised many other beliefs before. But I do need to see it from the scriptures. I listen to others but I always verify what the say from the scriptures as did the Bereans who didn't even believe the great Apostle Paul without verifying it for themselves. Overall, I think it's a good policy.

So you do not believe Jesus is God? Or Jesus is equal with God? God had some other salvation plan for jews separate from Christ?
Perhaps you do not believe Christ made appearances in the OT? What of this then, who is the Lord here?

Then the Lord appeared to him by [a]the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

They said, “Do as you have said.”
=================================================
The Lord here must be Christ the Lord, as Jesus told us no man in the flesh has seen God.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
=================================================

Abraham Intercedes for Sodom​

16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

 

[M3n0r4h]

In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
In Chronicles he is the King's son.
In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
In Job he is the daysman.
In Psalms he is the song.
In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
In Hosea he is the latter rain.
In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
In Jonah he is our salvation.
In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
In John he is Jehovah's Son.
In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
In Romans he is the believers' justification.
In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
In Timothy he is the faithful men.
In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
In James he is the royal law.
In Peter he is the pastor.
In John he is as we are.
In Jude he is the beloved.
In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

oh okay.

so He's God.

 

[Rich R]

Well, I don't think Scott is advocating any kind of replacement, so there's that right off the bat. If he is, then he's mistaken, but I don't think so. But sure, you are certainly forgiven for that... :)


All in Christ are of God's Israel, yes, but this does not exclude ethnic Jews throughout history. They also were of Israel and thus true Jews (refer to what Paul says about who true Jews are in Romans 2:28-29) if they were in Christ. The only difference between the Israelites of old is that they were looking forward to the coming Christ/Messiah and the cross, and we believers today are looking back on His first coming and the cross. We are all one people. Think of it this way:

• Old Israel: Those called by God, who repented of their sin and believed in the coming Christ
• New Israel; Those called by God, who repent of their sin and believe in Christ and including all those of Old Israel
• God's Israel: Old Israel plus New Israel.

So rather than any kind of "replacement," it is actually inclusion... and still a work in process, and this is exactly what Paul says to the Gentiles in his day:

I guess I did misunderstand Scott. What you say, and I guess Scott also, is quite different than what Wiki said, i.e. "Christian Church has succeeded ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians have succeeded the ancient Israelites as the people of God." Wiki's version sounds a lot more like replacement than inclusion.

But then again, upon checking about a half dozen websites on "replacement theology," they all agree that the church supposedly replaced Israel. None said Christians were included with Israel, which I think aligns with what you are saying as well as with actual scriptures. All those sites made it pretty explicit in saying that Christians supposedly replaced Israel, which would explain why they call it "replacement theology" in the first place. I think there is a huge difference between replacement and inclusion.

"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)​

​

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

That should be enough clarification, I think.

Well, I understand this to say that God made Jews and Gentiles into a new thing which builds on v 15 of that chapter:

Eph 2:15,

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;​

As you said, I can see that as an inclusion, but not a replacement. I don't see that anything was replaced, but that something else was added. Again, that agrees with you describing it as inclusion, and not replacement.

This is absolutely incorrect. See above. As Jesus says, they had Moses and the Prophets (John 5:46). And Hebrews 11 is crystal clear about all the saints of old having been saved exactly as we are today, through faith. "...all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar..." Hebrews 11:13).

Moses was a Christian? I don't think so. What is a Christian, if not someone who confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9)? Now that would have been an impossibility for Moses to have done, given that Jesus wouldn't have arrived on the scene for some time after Moses lived. Yes we are all saved by faith, but the question is, faith in what?

I still maintain that Moses and many other Jews , though not Christian, will almost certainly will be among those of the first resurrection (Rev 20:4). Yet others, including Gentiles, will be judged after the 1,000 reign of Christ and many of them will also enjoy eternal life as long as their name is in the book of life.

I know Christians like to point out the fallacy of that old saying, "there are many road to Chicago" applied to salvation, but it may not be that far off. There are in fact three ways to make it to the new Eden.

1. Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead (Rom 10:9). Those folks meet Jesus in the clouds before the tribulation even begins (1 Thess 4:15-18, Rom 5:9). That route would not have been available to Moses, seeing as how God had not yet raised Jesus from the dead.
2. The first resurrection of Rev 20:4
3. The second resurrection of Rev 20:12-15

Again, I believe Christians have a guaranteed seat in the new land, but the others will have to wait and see. Jesus will judge non-Christians righteously, all the while considering their heart. That covers all the people who never had the chance to hear the Gospel. As Romans says, all people have a general sense of right and wrong, and that is how they will be judged. I dare say most folks that have ever lived are fairly decent folks, though not perfect. After all we are all born with a sin nature, so it is quite impossible to perfectly fulfill the law, Jesus being the one notable exception, given that he was born with innocent blood. He and Adam are the only humans for which that can be said. One blew it and the other didn't. In any case, Jesus will hardly expect anybody to be perfect and that'll be taken into consideration as he judges people. One thing for sure, he won't judge the same way people judge.

All in all, I like your idea of inclusion vs. replacement. I think that is scriptural whereas the other is man's idea.

 

[Rich R]

So you do not believe Jesus is God? Or Jesus is equal with God? God had some other salvation plan for jews separate from Christ?
Perhaps you do not believe Christ made appearances in the OT? What of this then, who is the Lord here?

I believe 1 Corinthians 8:6:

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

It clearly says only the Father is God. I don't recall reading or hearing anywhere that Jesus is the Father. He's always called the son.

I might also point out that Jesus himself never actually claimed equality with God. What Jesus consistently said in John was that God was his Father. The Pharisees twisted that simple declaration and falsely made the claim that Jesus made himself equal to God. Jesus replied to that lie by saying that it was only through his Father that he did what he did (John 5:18-19). All throughout John Jesus said his Father was greater than himself, that he could do nothing without his Father, that his power was granted to him by his Father. I think the Pharisees were absolutely wrong in saying Jesus made himself equal to God and I have no interest in agreeing with them while ignoring Jesus' own words.

=================================================
The Lord here must be Christ the Lord, as Jesus told us no man in the flesh has seen God.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
=================================================

Yes, Jesus was the perfect image of God (Col 1:15), thus it could be said that those who saw Jesus also saw God. The image in your mirror is not you, but it does perfectly reflect you. An image of something by definition is not the thing itself. God had hoped Adam would have been His image, but Adam had his own ideas.

I might also mention that we as Christians are all being transformed into the image of God (2 Cor 3:18). As long as we do God's will, people will see God by looking at us. Of course, we often fall short, but we can get closer and closer to that perfect image as long as we hang in there, study God's word, and endeavor to act on it. While I will always endevour to be God's image, I'd never claim to actually be God. Quite a calling if you ask me!

 

[Earburner]

Well, you are right in pointing out that Thessalonians never says explicitly that Jesus will come to the earth after we meet him in the clouds. But then again, neither is there any explicit declaration, "Jesus is God" and yet that has been accepted as the very bedrock of the Christian faith by the orthodox church for some 2,000 years.

But I was thinking about Isaiah.

Isa 65:17-25,

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

There will be a new heaven and earth. It will include a place called Jerusalem. The people will build houses, plant vineyards, they will eat the fruit of those vineyards. There will be wolves and lambs (presumably there will be other animals as well). We also see in Isaiah that Yahweh will be with those people in Jerusalem. In addition, as you pointed out, Jesus will be wherever we are. Where do you see all of that happening? Heaven or land?

I might also point out the obvious fact that the Bible was not written last year in New York or LA. It was written to a people in the Ancient Near East with a radically different worldview than we of the Modern West. What do you think they would have thought about where they would spend the future? I'm thinking that they knew full well that houses, vineyards, animals, etc. existed on the land. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that. Heaven was for the birds, the rain and the realm of the gods. They believed that people lived in the land. Not sure what would have made them think it'd be any different in the new heaven and new earth. Probably nothing. In fact, I'd bet my last dollar on that also.

You may lose your last dollar.

Yes, of a truth, Jesus will remain in the clouds of heaven, which could be literal clouds, or the clouds of countless angels, not to mention those saints who have died in faith believing, whom He brings with Him, of which we who are alive and remain, shall be gathered unto them. Yes, we meet Him and them in the AIR.

Unfortunately, a favorite verse for most Christians, is to quote Acts 1:11 and then for it's fulfillment, they compare it to Zech. 14:4.
I can tell without any doubt, that Jesus fulfilled most all of Zech. 4, but not how most are led to understand Acts 1:11.

The Gospel, who is Christ Himself, was kept secret since the beginning of the world, until His first appearance among us, in the likeness of our flesh. Rom. 16:25, Mat. 13:35.

Now, understanding that, we must comprehend that the OT prophets could not distinguish or discern anything for time, as to how the three manifestations of Christ were going to be manifested and fulfilled.
1. In mortal flesh
2. In the Spirit
3. In His Immortality
The best that they could do, was to speak it forth, having no knowledge of how, when and which manifestation of Christ their words would be fulfilled. All of that is involved with the "secret" of Jesus' first appearance. Therefore, with His two other manifestations of Pentecost/Age of Grace and His Glorious return, we must becareful to note what has been fulfilled already.

 

[PinSeeker]

Moses was a Christian?

Absolutely. I'm really quite surprised by that question... Moses was certainly a Jew. And Moses most certainly wrote about Christ Jesus... prophesied about Him, starting in Genesis 3:15. Christ Jesus, as surely you know, said everything Moses wrote was about Him ("...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" John 5:46), and the two men on the road to Emmaus that Jesus spoke to at length after His resurrection heard the same thing ("...beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" Luke 24:27).

I don't think so.

Don't you think God called Moses, much as he called Abraham? Not to mention that the Holy Spirit certainly worked in Moses to produce the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch). My goodness. And Moses is mentioned in Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith, quite at length, actually:

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them" (Hebrews 11:23-28).

It seems ridiculous to suppose that even someone who believes not a word of the Bible would fail to concede that Moses was indeed a Christian.

I still maintain that Moses and many other Jews , though not Christian, will almost certainly will be among those of the first resurrection (Rev 20:4).

LOL! Which is to say they were Christians, just like us! LOL! Okay, Rich. Okay. LOL! I'm... pokin' a little fun atcha, but really, man. In this sentence, you said, paraphrasing, "Well, they were not Christians, but they were Christians." LOL!

Yet others, including Gentiles, will be judged after the 1,000 reign of Christ and many of them will also enjoy eternal life as long as their name is in the book of life.

Well, all will be judged after the millennium. But that's a different conversation, really. But other than that, yes, much agreed.

There are in fact three ways to make it to the new Eden.

1. Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead (Rom 10:9). Those folks meet Jesus in the clouds before the tribulation even begins (1 Thess 4:15-18, Rom 5:9). That route would not have been available to Moses, seeing as how God had not yet raised Jesus from the dead.
2. The first resurrection of Rev 20:4
3. The second resurrection of Rev 20:12-15

Hm, well, I would submit to you, Rich, that these are all one. The people who do #1 are the people who have experienced, or shared in, #2... and thus are Christians. And again, the only difference between those in Old Testament times was that they were looking forward to Jesus and His sacrifice in faith, while we in New Testament times are looking back on Christ and His sacrifice in faith. But belief in Christ and this God-given faith are the constants. Your third item there is really a different thing. Everyone experiences the second resurrection, but some are resurrected to eternal life, and the others to judgment (John 5:28-29).

Again, I believe Christians have a guaranteed seat in the new land, but the others will have to wait and see.

Okay, well, I agree, really, but Christians, both before and after Christ's life on earth, are saved through faith, which is the assurance of God and His gift and calling, and cannot be revoked. For those who "have to wait and see," if they are still waiting to see, they will be among those who will not stand in the Judgment. It is, after all, God Who gives sight to the blind.

...we are all born with a sin nature...

Right...

...so it is quite impossible to perfectly fulfill the law...

Right...

Jesus being the one notable exception, given that he was born with innocent blood...

Well, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so, by God. This is why He was able to perfectly fulfill the law, why He is the Father's Lamb without blemish, and why His sacrifice was sufficient to atone for us all.

...He and Adam are the only humans for which that can be said.

Not Adam... Adam's sin is why we are all born with a sin nature.

One blew it and the other didn't.

Right. Well, one failed, and the other righted the one's failure. This is why Jesus is the Second Adam. But sure, okay.

In any case, Jesus will hardly expect anybody to be perfect and that'll be taken into consideration as he judges people.

Ah, but some will be perfect in His Judgment, because His righteousness will have been imputed to them. Surely you remember that Jesus Himself said, "...I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20). You may ask, "PinSeeker, how is that possible?" And I would say, invoking the words of Jesus Himself again, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

All in all, I like your idea of inclusion vs. replacement. I think that is scriptural whereas the other is man's idea.

Well, all ideas are man's, but some are in accordance with what God says, and some, unfortunately, are not. :)

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

Absolutely. I'm really quite surprised by that question... Moses was certainly a Jew. And Moses most certainly wrote about Christ Jesus... prophesied about Him, starting in Genesis 3:15. Christ Jesus, as surely you know, said everything Moses wrote was about Him ("...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" John 5:46), and the two men on the road to Emmaus that Jesus spoke to at length after His resurrection heard the same thing ("...beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" Luke 24:27).


Don't you think God called Moses, much as he called Abraham? Not to mention that the Holy Spirit certainly worked in Moses to produce the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch). My goodness. And Moses is mentioned in Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith, quite at length, actually:

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them" (Hebrews 11:23-28).

It seems ridiculous to suppose that even someone who believes not a word of the Bible would fail to concede that Moses was indeed a Christian.


LOL! Which is to say they were Christians, just like us! LOL! Okay, Rich. Okay. LOL! I'm... pokin' a little fun atcha, but really, man. In this sentence, you said, paraphrasing, "Well, they were not Christians, but they were Christians." LOL!


Well, all will be judged after the millennium. But that's a different conversation, really. But other than that, yes, much agreed.


Hm, well, I would submit to you, Rich, that these are all one. The people who do #1 are the people who have experienced, or shared in, #2... and thus are Christians. And again, the only difference between those in Old Testament times was that they were looking forward to Jesus and His sacrifice in faith, while we in New Testament times are looking back on Christ and His sacrifice in faith. But belief in Christ and this God-given faith are the constants. Your third item there is really a different thing. Everyone experiences the second resurrection, but some are resurrected to eternal life, and the others to judgment (John 5:28-29).


Okay, well, I agree, really, but Christians, both before and after Christ's life on earth, are saved through faith, which is the assurance of God and His gift and calling, and cannot be revoked. For those who "have to wait and see," if they are still waiting to see, they will be among those who will not stand in the Judgment. It is, after all, God Who gives sight to the blind.


Right...


Right...


Well, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so, by God. This is why He was able to perfectly fulfill the law, why He is the Father's Lamb without blemish, and why His sacrifice was sufficient to atone for us all.


Not Adam... Adam's sin is why we are all born with a sin nature.


Right. Well, one failed, and the other righted the one's failure. This is why Jesus is the Second Adam. But sure, okay.


Ah, but some will be perfect in His Judgment, because His righteousness will have been imputed to them. Surely you remember that Jesus Himself said, "...I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20). You may ask, "PinSeeker, how is that possible?" And I would say, invoking the words of Jesus Himself again, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).


Well, all ideas are man's, but some are in accordance with what God says, and some, unfortunately, are not. :)

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

I guess we agree on the big parts.

I still don't see how Moses can be a Christian, given that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead (Rom 10:9). If Moses was a Christian, why did Jesus bother with the crucifixion? He could have saved himself a lot of trouble. So, what do you think it it takes to be a Christian if not Romans 10:9?

Neither do I understand how 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (#1) can be the same thing as Rev 20:4-5 (#2). There seems to be a big difference between the two events, but, as the old hymn goes, "we'll understand it all by and by."

 

[Rich R]

You may lose your last dollar.

Yes, of a truth, Jesus will remain in the clouds of heaven, which could be literal clouds, or the clouds of countless angels, not to mention those saints who have died in faith believing, whom He brings with Him, of which we who are alive and remain, shall be gathered unto them. Yes, we meet Him and them in the AIR.

Unfortunately, a favorite verse for most Christians, is to quote Acts 1:11 and then for it's fulfillment, they compare it to Zech. 14:4.
I can tell without any doubt, that Jesus fulfilled most all of Zech. 4, but not how most are led to understand Acts 1:11.

The Gospel, who is Christ Himself, was kept secret since the beginning of the world, until His first appearance among us, in the likeness of our flesh. Rom. 16:25, Mat. 13:35.

Now, understanding that, we must comprehend that the OT prophets could not distinguish or discern anything for time, as to how the three manifestations of Christ were going to be manifested and fulfilled.
1. In mortal flesh
2. In the Spirit
3. In His Immortality
The best that they could do, was to speak it forth, having no knowledge of how, when and which manifestation of Christ their words would be fulfilled. All of that is involved with the "secret" of Jesus' first appearance. Therefore, with His two other manifestations of Pentecost/Age of Grace and His Glorious return, we must becareful to note what has been fulfilled already.

I wasn't aware that most Christians compare Acts with Zechariah. I'm not one of them though. I don't think Zechariah will be fulfilled until Jesus' second advent.

I think the scriptures are clear that the secret was not revealed until it was revealed to Paul, not at Jesus' first appearance.

Eph 3:3-5,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

The Gospels are part of the "other ages" in which it was still kept secret by God. Those "other ages" technically ended on the day of Pentecost and not before. Wouldn't "now" mean when Paul wrote what he wrote? Looks like prior to that nobody knew about it.

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

​

If it was revealed when Jesus was here verse 8 would have no meaning. Jesus needed to die so God could raise him, which obviously ushered in a whole new age. The upshot of this mystery is Christ in you.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

There was nobody with Christ in them until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. That of course was 50 days after Jesus rose. The Apostles were the first to enjoy that privilege, followed by about 3,000 others after Peter's speech. If people could have had Christ in them before that day Jesus died for no reason.

When Jesus was alive there was one Jesus in one place. As bothersome as that was for the devil, he now has to deal with billions of Christs all over the place. No wonder he would not have killed Jesus had he known the mystery (secret). What a coup on God's part. The best the devil could do at that point was to prevent Christians learning about the secret. He's been fairly successful in that.

1 Cor 2:1-8,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.​

​

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

​

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.​

​

4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:​

​

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.​

​

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:​

​

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Paul was simply unable to reveal the fullness of that mystery to the Corinthians because they were carnal as evidenced by their infighting.

1Cor 3:1-4,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.​

​

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.​

​

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

​

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?​

Regarding my last dollar, I still think I can keep it, but it really doesn't matter since God meets my needs, not George Washington. :)

 

[Earburner]

you need to change your Faith declaration to "other" under your screen name and avatar if you don't accept that Christ is God.

there is no legitimate Christianity, nor authentic following of Christ, for those who reject that He is God.

all religions that don't accept Christ as God are pagan religions and Jesus Himself says that you will all die in your sins if you do not believe that He is the God of the Old Testament.

Yes, Jesus was that person who was "the angel of the Lord"**, of whom was asked to give His name, but declined because His name was "secret". Judges 13
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Of course, all we who believe, know that it was none other than God the Son, the Lord Jesus, before He was made to be in the likeness of our flesh.

**Note:
The words "the angel of the Lord" appears 50 times in the OT, and never once is His name given.

 

[Scott Downey]

I believe 1 Corinthians 8:6:

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

It clearly says only the Father is God. I don't recall reading or hearing anywhere that Jesus is the Father. He's always called the son.

I might also point out that Jesus himself never actually claimed equality with God. What Jesus consistently said in John was that God was his Father. The Pharisees twisted that simple declaration and falsely made the claim that Jesus made himself equal to God. Jesus replied to that lie by saying that it was only through his Father that he did what he did (John 5:18-19). All throughout John Jesus said his Father was greater than himself, that he could do nothing without his Father, that his power was granted to him by his Father. I think the Pharisees were absolutely wrong in saying Jesus made himself equal to God and I have no interest in agreeing with them while ignoring Jesus' own words.



Yes, Jesus was the perfect image of God (Col 1:15), thus it could be said that those who saw Jesus also saw God. The image in your mirror is not you, but it does perfectly reflect you. An image of something by definition is not the thing itself. God had hoped Adam would have been His image, but Adam had his own ideas.

I might also mention that we as Christians are all being transformed into the image of God (2 Cor 3:18). As long as we do God's will, people will see God by looking at us. Of course, we often fall short, but we can get closer and closer to that perfect image as long as we hang in there, study God's word, and endeavor to act on it. While I will always endevour to be God's image, I'd never claim to actually be God. Quite a calling if you ask me!

There was never a Christless relationship with God for the Jews before Christ was born as a babe. If scripture be true that no man has seen God then neither did Adam and Eve in Eden. The Lord God in the garden must have been Christ. God dwells in an unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.


11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only [e]Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

 

[Earburner]

I wasn't aware that most Christians compare Acts with Zechariah. I'm not one of them though. I don't think Zechariah will be fulfilled until Jesus' second advent.

I think the scriptures are clear that the secret was not revealed until it was revealed to Paul, not at Jesus' first appearance.

Eph 3:3-5,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

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4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

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5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

The Gospels are part of the "other ages" in which it was still kept secret by God. Those "other ages" technically ended on the day of Pentecost and not before. Wouldn't "now" mean when Paul wrote what he wrote? Looks like prior to that nobody knew about it.

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

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8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

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If it was revealed when Jesus was here verse 8 would have no meaning. Jesus needed to die so God could raise him, which obviously ushered in a whole new age. The upshot of this mystery is Christ in you.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

There was nobody with Christ in them until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. That of course was 50 days after Jesus rose. The Apostles were the first to enjoy that privilege, followed by about 3,000 others after Peter's speech. If people could have had Christ in them before that day Jesus died for no reason.

When Jesus was alive there was one Jesus in one place. As bothersome as that was for the devil, he now has to deal with billions of Christs all over the place. No wonder he would not have killed Jesus had he known the mystery (secret). What a coup on God's part. The best the devil could do at that point was to prevent Christians learning about the secret. He's been fairly successful in that.

1 Cor 2:1-8,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.​

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2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

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3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.​

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4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:​

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5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.​

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6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:​

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7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

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8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Paul was simply unable to reveal the fullness of that mystery to the Corinthians because they were carnal as evidenced by their infighting.

1Cor 3:1-4,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.​

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2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.​

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3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

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4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?​

Regarding my last dollar, I still think I can keep it, but it really doesn't matter since God meets my needs, not George Washington. :)

Yes, I do agree with your scripture references, however God's unvailing of His secret, was cloaked in the OT words: "the promise to come" and "the promised one", aka the Messiah.
Israel of faith were riveted on those words, and for those who were/had been waiting, they were not let down or forgotten by God. Malachi 3:16.

The knowledge of the secret/mystery of who the Messiah/Savior was, came out of the mouth of John the Baptist two times in John 1
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
God the Father Himself spoke those words, revealing through the first of the "two witnesses", that the name of Jesus was by His Authority, no longer a secret.

Then there is Simeon, whereby the Holy Ghost told him that he would see the Savior with his own eyes. "...it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."
Luke 2:25-32.

I see that the "secret" was made known much earlier, than by Paul. It was revealed by God the Father through John the Baptist, one of the "Two Witnesses"

 

[PinSeeker]

I still don't see how Moses can be a Christian, given that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead (Rom 10:9). If Moses was a Christian, why did Jesus bother with the crucifixion? He could have saved himself a lot of trouble.

Moses had faith, just like folks today do. People were not called "Christians" in his day, and not until believers in and followers of Christ until the first century A.D., and even then, the term was not first coined by Christians. See Acts 11:26... Jesus's disciples were first called Christians by outsiders. But people are made believers - imputed with the righteousness of Christ; justified in Him even while still dead in sin ~ and given faith by God, through the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, and this was always true, since the time of Adam's and Eve's Fall in Genesis 3. Jesus's sacrifice was and is effectual for God's elect backward in our time from that point as well as forward. To not believe that would be far outside generally-held and accepted ~ orthodox ~ Scriptural understanding.

So, what do you think it it takes to be a Christian if not Romans 10:9?

Faith the size of a mustard seed. :)

Neither do I understand how 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (#1) can be the same thing as Rev 20:4-5 (#2).

It's not. :) Were you thinking that I had posited that? No, my assertion would be that the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 have not happened yet; they will upon Jesus's return. The events of Revelation 20:4-6 have occurred, are occurring, and will continue to occur until Jesus comes back.

There seems to be a big difference between the two events, but, as the old hymn goes, "we'll understand it all by and by."

Hm. Well, connected, certainly, but yes, quite a difference, as in one leads to, or precipitates, the other.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.