Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

[Brakelite]

There is conjecture among those interested in prophecy, that the final Antichrist is Satan himself. Most would be aware that the Antichrist has a few aliases. "Man of sin" (2 Thess. 2:3); "little horn" (Daniel 7:24,25); the second phase of the little horn of (Daniel 8:10); King of the North (Daniel 11:40-45); the sea beast (Revel. 13:1-10).
However, apart from the scriptures that actually identify the Antichrist as above, there is one in particular that straight out denies the possibility of the Antichrist being Satan. That is
KJV Revelation 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The Dragon and the beast cannot be the same entity.

Satan, right up to the point when he in desperation impersonates Christ Himself to all the world, uses agents. Satan in prophecy is the dragon. (Revel.12:9; 20:2; and elsewhere throughout Revelation, where his agents on the earth reflect the attributes and appearance of the dragon. Prime example: Revelation 12 describes the dragon standing before the woman to devour her child. The literal fulfillment was Herod attempting to destroy Jesus. How was that representative of the dragon? Herod was a Roman puppet. He was pagan Rome's representative and agent of Satan to destroy the Messiah.

Note and compare the following...
KJV Daniel 7:7, 19-20, 23-24
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns....
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows....
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces,
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Compare with...
KJV Revelation 12:3-4, 13, 16-17
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born....
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child....
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And...
KJV Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The similarities resolve all doubt. The Dragon cannot be the little horn, or the beast. But they are most certainly created after his own image. These persecuting, murderous, lying, destructive enemies of Christ and His people, owe their power, their authority, their throne, their very being, to the dragon, Satan, who created them for the very purpose of destroying God's people in order to hurt the one he truly despises, Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is conjecture among those interested in prophecy, that the final Antichrist is Satan himself. Most would be aware that the Antichrist has a few aliases. "Man of sin" (2 Thess. 2:3); "little horn" (Daniel 7:24,25); the second phase of the little horn of (Daniel 8:10); King of the North (Daniel 11:40-45); the sea beast (Revel. 13:1-10).
However, apart from the scriptures that actually identify the Antichrist as above, there is one in particular that straight out denies the possibility of the Antichrist being Satan. That is
KJV Revelation 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The Dragon and the beast cannot be the same entity.

This is so obvious that I'm amazed that anyone believes otherwise. Just another case of people trying to make scripture say what they want it to say.

 

[Douggg]

However, apart from the scriptures that actually identify the Antichrist as above, there is one in particular that straight out denies the possibility of the Antichrist being Satan. That is
KJV Revelation 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The Dragon and the beast cannot be the same entity.

I agree and have presented that same rationale myself.

Regarding the Antichirst person, he goes through 5 stages on the path to his destruction.

1. as the little horn person - leader over a group of 10 EU leaders.
2. as the prince who shall come - into the middle east following the Gog/Magog event
3. as the Antichrist - anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah
4. as the reveled man of sin -claiming to have achieved God-hood. End of his time as the King of Israel.
5. as the beast-king - dictator of the EU.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

 

[tailgator]

Are any of you going to figure out what's going on when president Trump gives the Israeli government an army to protect Israel?

If you think the king of the north and the little horn are the same,your not getting the picture.

 

[Douggg]

If you think the king of the north and the little horn are the same,your not getting the picture.

The king in Daniel 11:36 is the king of the west. In Daniel 11:40, he will be attacked by first the king of the south. And the king of north when he sees that happening attacks him from the north. Then the kings of the east will attack him.

 

[tailgator]

The king in Daniel 11:36 is the king of the west. In Daniel 11:40, he will be attacked by first the king of the south. And the king of north when he sees that happening attacks him from the north. Then the kings of the east will attack him.





View attachment 47150

Wrong.
Daniel never mentions a king of the west in chapter 11.He wrote about a succession of kings of the same kingdom.which he called the king of the north.
Other than the king of the north ,he wrote of a king of the south .


I'm not saying the king of the north is not from the west,but he never calls any of them the king of the west.

 

[Brakelite]

So soon we get futurist conjecture and arguments regarding major cataclysmic events that may or may not happen. The only place to discover what is going to take place tomorrow, is by comparing the prophetic scriptures with history. Picking out random prophecies and then guessing regarding their application in the future is a waste of time. Compare prophecy with history, and you will discover the identity of the major players. Then ask yourself, do these major players have a role to play in prophecy yet unfulfilled, and what was their practise in the past, do they still believe in the principles they acted on previously? Then take Solomon's counsel. History repeats. Then you know how they will behave in the future, and what the fulfilment of prophecy will look like in the future. Forget the conjecture. God didn't give prophecy in order to for us to use it as a form of clairvoyance and prediction for the future. Look first to the past. Then the guesswork is minimal.
KJV Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

 

[Stumpmaster]

So soon we get futurist conjecture and arguments regarding major cataclysmic events that may or may not happen. The only place to discover what is going to take place tomorrow, is by comparing the prophetic scriptures with history. Picking out random prophecies and then guessing regarding their application in the future is a waste of time. Compare prophecy with history, and you will discover the identity of the major players. Then ask yourself, do these major players have a role to play in prophecy yet unfulfilled, and what was their practise in the past, do they still believe in the principles they acted on previously? Then take Solomon's counsel. History repeats. Then you know how they will behave in the future, and what the fulfilment of prophecy will look like in the future. Forget the conjecture. God didn't give prophecy in order to for us to use it as a form of clairvoyance and prediction for the future. Look first to the past. Then the guesswork is minimal.
KJV Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

If anyone was humbly talking about this verse I would interested be.

(Rev 17:8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Someone could humbly say, "Excuse me. Look at this in the context".

was = past, and
is not = present, and
yet is = future.

 

[Oneoff]

Good rationale amidst a lot of unedifying stuff.

 

[Brakelite]

If anyone was humbly talking about this verse I would interested be.

(Rev 17:8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Someone could humbly say, "Excuse me. Look at this in the context".

was = past, and
is not = present, and
yet is = future.

The first step to understanding Revelation 17 is to believe what the angel was saying. It is the judgement of the great harlot. This harlot is riding a beast. The picture here is the ultimate final consummation of all the deceptions and growth of apostasy from the time of Eden to the present day. Obviously, the harlot isn't in reference to a literal prostitute, and the beast isn't a literal beast. They are symbolic of spiritual entities that have grown over millennia and are enemies to God's people. First thing to observe is that both the harlot and the beast are in harmony. The harlot is holding the reigns, while the beast is giving the harlot support and obeying her will.
In the OT, the people of Israel are often spoken of collectively as woman. Sometimes Israel as a whole is compared to all unfaithful wife, whose divine Husband, God, is going to have to restore her. See Hosea 2:19,20; Isaiah 54:1-8. At other times Israel is compared to as beautiful young woman whom God has outfitted in gorgeous be clothes and chosen to take His bride. See Ezekiel. 16:8-14
Same in the NT. See 2 Cor. 11:2; Ephesians 5:21-23. We are not to suppose however that God has 2 brides. While at one time the bride was a local ethnic group, today it is a global all-ethnic group. God's spiritual Israel had neither Jew nor Greek, neither male or female. Galatians 3:28.
The pure woman of Revelation 12 is like the woman of Ezekiel 16. Clothed in the righteousness of Christ. (Revel. 19:8) As a symbol of the church, she stands as one at the height of her faithfulness, virtuous, good, and a true mother. She is in stark contrast to the whore of later chapters. An unfaithful church, apostatised, and an enemy to God's people.
The combination of this unfaithful church riding the beast, represents a union of church and state. Throughout prophecy beasts depicted empires or nations. The heads of the beast are previous governments already mentioned in Daniel, and includes the papal church which had also fallen when viewed from the time of the judgement. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome, followed by papal Rome, all fallen. The one that is, is papal Rome living in a state of critical illness as a result of the wound indicted by France in 1798. That wound is now being healed, and we are witnessing in our life time the rise of the 8th, but which is on fact one of the 7. A restored papacy, in union with the kings and queens and rulers of this present age, a union of an adjustable church and world governments. Who can fail to see this taking place before our very eyes.

 

[tailgator]

So soon we get futurist conjecture and arguments regarding major cataclysmic events that may or may not happen. The only place to discover what is going to take place tomorrow, is by comparing the prophetic scriptures with history. Picking out random prophecies and then guessing regarding their application in the future is a waste of time. Compare prophecy with history, and you will discover the identity of the major players. Then ask yourself, do these major players have a role to play in prophecy yet unfulfilled, and what was their practise in the past, do they still believe in the principles they acted on previously? Then take Solomon's counsel. History repeats. Then you know how they will behave in the future, and what the fulfilment of prophecy will look like in the future. Forget the conjecture. God didn't give prophecy in order to for us to use it as a form of clairvoyance and prediction for the future. Look first to the past. Then the guesswork is minimal.
KJV Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Yes if we look at history,we get a better understand of tomorrow

Understand the first and second UD/Iraq wars helps tremendously..Just follow on from there.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes if we look at history,we get a better understand of tomorrow

Understand the first and second UD/Iraq wars helps tremendously..Just follow on from there.

You are looking at events in the world, then fitting them into scripture. That isn't how prophetic study works. Do it the other way round. Study the prophecies, and then find the fulfilment in history or if it isn't in history or it doesn't meet all the criteria of the prophecy, it hasn't happened yet.

 

[tailgator]

You are looking at events in the world, then fitting them into scripture. That isn't how prophetic study works. Do it the other way round. Study the prophecies, and then find the fulfilment in history or if it isn't in history or it doesn't meet all the criteria of the prophecy, it hasn't happened yet.

The time of the end isn't history.
Jesus has not come and raised the dead yet.
That takes place at the sound of the last trump.

I'm watching prophecy that precedes Jesus coming.World events which takes place before Jesus coming.

 

[Brakelite]

The time of the end isn't history.
Jesus has not come and raised the dead yet.
That takes place at the sound of the last trump.

I'm watching prophecy that precedes Jesus coming.World events which takes place before Jesus coming.

Read what Jesus said about world events, in context with the timeline, then look to history. That's what I'm doing with this thread.
I refuse to look at some random war somewhere, then go to some obscure text in the middle of Ezekiel and claim prophecy fulfilled. That's nonsense Bible study.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The first step to understanding Revelation 17 is to believe what the angel was saying. It is the judgement of the great harlot. This harlot is riding a beast. The picture here is the ultimate final consummation of all the deceptions and growth of apostasy from the time of Eden to the present day. Obviously, the harlot isn't in reference to a literal prostitute, and the beast isn't a literal beast. They are symbolic of spiritual entities that have grown over millennia and are enemies to God's people. First thing to observe is that both the harlot and the beast are in harmony. The harlot is holding the reigns, while the beast is giving the harlot support and obeying her will.
In the OT, the people of Israel are often spoken of collectively as woman. Sometimes Israel as a whole is compared to all unfaithful wife, whose divine Husband, God, is going to have to restore her. See Hosea 2:19,20; Isaiah 54:1-8. At other times Israel is compared to as beautiful young woman whom God has outfitted in gorgeous be clothes and chosen to take His bride. See Ezekiel. 16:8-14
Same in the NT. See 2 Cor. 11:2; Ephesians 5:21-23. We are not to suppose however that God has 2 brides. While at one time the bride was a local ethnic group, today it is a global all-ethnic group. God's spiritual Israel had neither Jew nor Greek, neither male or female. Galatians 3:28.
The pure woman of Revelation 12 is like the woman of Ezekiel 16. Clothed in the righteousness of Christ. (Revel. 19:8) As a symbol of the church, she stands as one at the height of her faithfulness, virtuous, good, and a true mother. She is in stark contrast to the whore of later chapters. An unfaithful church, apostatised, and an enemy to God's people.
The combination of this unfaithful church riding the beast, represents a union of church and state. Throughout prophecy beasts depicted empires or nations. The heads of the beast are previous governments already mentioned in Daniel, and includes the papal church which had also fallen when viewed from the time of the judgement. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome, followed by papal Rome, all fallen. The one that is, is papal Rome living in a state of critical illness as a result of the wound indicted by France in 1798. That wound is now being healed, and we are witnessing in our life time the rise of the 8th, but which is on fact one of the 7. A restored papacy, in union with the kings and queens and rulers of this present age, a union of an adjustable church and world governments. Who can fail to see this taking place before our very eyes.

The Church is the bride. The Gentile bride. Jews also are in the bride.
The covenant Jew is the wife gone awhoring.
She comes in after the time of the Gentiles completed which is the pretrib rapture.
We see these two in both Ruth, and romans 11.
Rev 14 has the Jews gathered vividly, complete with first fruits and main harvest.
The Jews are the fruit harvest.
1) the gentile bride
2 ) the Jewish wife.
2 separate entities.

 

[tailgator]

Read what Jesus said about world events, in context with the timeline, then look to history. That's what I'm doing with this thread.
I refuse to look at some random war somewhere, then go to some obscure text in the middle of Ezekiel and claim prophecy fulfilled. That's nonsense Bible study.

Jesus said "when you see these things"
Not "look to the past".

 

[christsavedme]

Every generation thinks that their current most relevant "bad guy" is the Antichrist.

I recently stumbled across an interesting take on the topic of the Antichrist, asking if he had already appeared. They go into a lot of detail but here is the TLDR:

"There are endless debates among Christians about the coming of the next Antichrist.

But rarely do I see christians ask the question, 'Was the Antichrist already here?'.

Remember, God works on different timescales: “With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)

Ask yourself: Is there anyone in history who has done more damage to the spread and reputation of Christianity than Muhammad?

The Antichrist is described as one who denies the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22). Muhammad’s teachings explicitly deny the divinity of Jesus and his role as the Son of God, which aligns with this prophecy.

Christian scholars like Thomas Aquinas viewed Islam and Muhammad in a negative light, often associating them with the Antichrist narrative.

The violence, warfare, and personal conduct of Muhammad, including his marriage to 6-year-old Aisha and his strategic use of deception, are seen by critics as fulfilling the characteristics of the Antichrist.

The concept of Taqiyya and the permissibility of lying under certain conditions in Islam are viewed as supporting the deceptive nature of the Antichrist."

 

[rebuilder 454]

Every generation thinks that their current most relevant "bad guy" is the Antichrist.

I recently stumbled across an interesting take on the topic of the Antichrist, asking if he had already appeared. They go into a lot of detail but here is the TLDR:

"There are endless debates among Christians about the coming of the next Antichrist.

But rarely do I see christians ask the question, 'Was the Antichrist already here?'.

Remember, God works on different timescales: “With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)

Ask yourself: Is there anyone in history who has done more damage to the spread and reputation of Christianity than Muhammad?

The Antichrist is described as one who denies the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22). Muhammad’s teachings explicitly deny the divinity of Jesus and his role as the Son of God, which aligns with this prophecy.

Christian scholars like Thomas Aquinas viewed Islam and Muhammad in a negative light, often associating them with the Antichrist narrative.

The violence, warfare, and personal conduct of Muhammad, including his marriage to 6-year-old Aisha and his strategic use of deception, are seen by critics as fulfilling the characteristics of the Antichrist.

The concept of Taqiyya and the permissibility of lying under certain conditions in Islam are viewed as supporting the deceptive nature of the Antichrist."

Too big of a leap

 

[covenantee]

The Church is the bride. The Gentile bride. Jews also are in the bride.
The covenant Jew is the wife gone awhoring.
She comes in after the time of the Gentiles completed which is the pretrib rapture.
We see these two in both Ruth, and romans 11.
Rev 14 has the Jews gathered vividly, complete with first fruits and main harvest.
The Jews are the fruit harvest.
1) the gentile bride
2 ) the Jewish wife.
2 separate entities.

So according to deluded dispensational dogma, God is both a racist and a polygamist.

Got it.

What other gems of wisdom and discernment do you have for us?

 

[ewq1938]

The Dragon cannot be the little horn, or the beast. But they are most certainly created after his own image.

Sure and this is the most likely correct but the verse cited showing the dragon and beast and FP all together doesn't disprove the idea of satan also being the antichrist/beast. It's not impossible at all if Satan can be himself as well as play a role similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger can also be the terminator.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

This likely was not literal events John saw but symbolism for deceptions and evil spirits being employed. The dragon isn't sa dragon but is symbolism for satan, and the beast is a global kingdom of ten smaller kingdoms and kings so that is the clearest example of symbolism being used. Teh false prophet could possibly be a role of satan's rather than a literal different person. There are pictures of the actor Schwarzenegger standing next to himself as the terminator. It's just video "magic" and what John saw with the dragon and beast could be similar.