Who makes the choice?

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theophilus

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There are many doctrinal divisions among Christians. For example, some believe that human beings repent and believe because God causes them to do so by choosing them to be saved while some believe that people believe and are saved because they choose to do so. What does the Bible say about this?

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.
Deuteronomy 30:19 ESV


Whether we are saved or lost depends on our choice.

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4 ESV


Whether we are saved or lost depends on whether we are among those he chose before the foundation of the world.

How can we reconcile these apparently contradictory statements?

Here is one way.

Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29,30 ESV


God knows who will choose to receive the salvation he offers and on this basis he predestines them to salvation.

Here is another way.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 ESV


God draws those whom he has chosen to himself and gives them the power to choose him.

Both sides can find support for their views in the Bible. Does this mean that the Bible contradicts itself and can’t be trusted as a guide to the truth?

We can find a possible answer to this by looking at a subject that at first may seem completely unrelated: the nature of light. Here is what Wikipedia says about this subject.

Wave-particle duality is perhaps one of the most confusing concepts in physics, because it is so unlike anything we see in the ordinary world.

Physicists who studied light in the 1700s and 1800s were having a big argument about whether light was made of particles shooting around like tiny bullets, or waves washing around like water waves. At times, light seems to do both. At times, light seems to go only in a straight line, as if it were made of particles. But other experiments show that light has a frequency and wavelength, just like a sound wave or water wave. Until the 20th century, most physicists thought that light was either one or the other, and that the scientists on the other side of the argument were simply wrong.

In 1909, a scientist named Geoffrey Taylor decided that he was going to settle this argument once and for all. He borrowed an experiment invented earlier by Thomas Young, where light was shone through two small holes right next to each other. When bright light was shone through these two small holes, it created an interference pattern that seemed to show that light was actually a wave.

Taylor’s idea was to photograph the movie coming out of the holes with a special movie that was unusually sensitive to light. When bright light was shined through the holes, the movie showed an interference pattern, just like Young showed earlier. Taylor then turned down the light to a very dim level. When the light was dim enough, Taylor’s photographs showed tiny pinpoints of light scattering out of the holes. This seemed to show that light was actually a particle. If Taylor allowed the dim light to shine through the holes for long enough, the dots eventually filled up the movie to make an interference pattern again. This demonstrated that light was somehow both a wave and a particle.

To make matters even more confusing, Louis de Broglie suggested that matter might act the same way. Scientists then performed these same experiments with electrons, and found that electrons too are somehow both particles and waves.

Today, these experiments have been done in so many different ways by so many different people that scientists simply accept that both matter and light are somehow both waves and particles. Scientists generally admit that even they do not fully understand how this can be, but they are quite certain that it must be true. Although it seems impossible to understand how anything can be both a wave and a particle, scientists do have a number of equations for describing these things that have variables for both wavelength (a wave property) and momentum (a particle property). This seeming impossibility is referred to as the wave-particle duality.

This shows that in the physical realm two ideas that seem to contradict each other can both be true. Isn’t it possible that this is true in the spiritual realm as well?

The Wikipedia article shows that if we accept the results of scientific research we must believe that light is both a particle and a wave even if we don’t see how both of these things can be true. If we believe the Bible we must believe that God is completely sovereign in the matter of salvation and chooses whom he will save and we must also believe that each person is responsible to choose whether or not he will be saved even if we don’t understand how they can both be true.

We live in a universe which had a beginning and will have an end. One component of this universe is time, which flows in one direction so that some things are in our past and some things are in our future. The decisions we make may be influenced by our past but they can only affect our future. Temporally a cause must precede its effect so that one event can be the cause or effect of another but not both.

This limitation doesn’t apply to God and his actions because he isn’t part of the creation and so he is not subject to its laws. Because we are part of the creation there are many things about God that we can’t understand and it is because we lack understanding that many of the truths he reveals seem to contradict each other.

It is possible that the two natures of light that we see are manifestations of some natural law that scientists haven’t yet discovered and that if we understood that law we would see that there is no contradiction in the way light behaves. In the same way, the doctrines of God’s sovereignty and our responsibility to choose are probably manifestations of some higher truth that hasn’t been revealed and if we could understand that truth we wouldn’t see any contradiction between the two.

While there are many things about salvation we don’t understand the Bible makes it perfectly clear what we must do to be saved. God is holy and and his holiness demands that he punish all sin. We have all sinned. Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty that we deserve and rose again from the dead. Anyone who repents of his sins and puts his faith in Christ will find salvation and be forgiven. It isn’t necessary to know whether you are believing of your own free will or because God has given you the ability to believe. It is possible to eat food and receive nourishment from it without understanding how your body digests it; in the same way it is possible to receive salvation without understanding all that is involved in it.

On this subject, as on many others, we need to keep in mind what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Deut 30:19 and Eph 1:4 are not contradictory.

God predetermined a group (not certain individuals) and God never predetermined what individuals would be in or out of that group. So individuals choose to be in that predetermined group or not by meeting the entrance conditions God has put in place.

So God made the choice that the group (Christian) would be saved but man has to make the choice to be in that group or not.
 

Suhar

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There goes yet another Calvinism vs Armenianism predestination debate. It has been going on for a loooong time! Debate about something that does not exist! There is no predestination! God is outside of time! There is no "before" and "after" to Him. There is no "pre" or "post".

Yes it is mentioned in the Bible but it is merely an attempt to describe in human terms something that cannot be described in human terms. There is no time in Heaven. God is outside of time!
 
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FHII

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Suhar said:
There goes yet another Calvinism vs Armenianism predestination debate. It has been going on for a loooong time! Debate about something that does not exist! There is no predestination! God is outside of time! There is no "before" and "after" to Him. There is no "pre" or "post".

Yes it is mentioned in the Bible but it is merely an attempt to describe in human terms something that cannot be described in human terms. There is no time in Heaven. God is outside of time!

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Ummm.... Maybe you want to rethink this concept that there is no time in heaven. Cause this verse says there is. Now that half an hour may be different from what we call half and hour.... But there is still a reference to time and while God may not be on our time schedule, he still keeps time.

There is no predestination? Well, you could've fooled me, and Paul and Peter since it is in the Bible! And no where does it say the predestinated can't play tennis!

Folks, I am not from the OSAS camp. But I do believe that God knows everything that is going to happen and preplanned it before the world began.... I simply believe he is that smart to know that ole' FHII would do this and that and even write this post about it.

I find a common trait amongst folks who don't believe in predestination and another thing.... Folks who believe there is no predestination also don't believe in Faith through grace alone, and without works of the flesh.

The funny thing is, predestination is in the Bible, Faith through grace without works is in the Bible... And it gives us freedom and liberty...... I don't understand why anyone wouldn't sign on. Unless....

They want credit for their works of the flesh....

Have a nice day, love you, bye!
 

Suhar

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FHII said:
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
I am not going to rethink what I saw, experienced. Not a chance! Absence of time is indeed a concept that can only be experieced not explained in human terms and that is exactly what John had to do to pass his experience onto others.


.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Suhar said:
There goes yet another Calvinism vs Armenianism predestination debate. It has been going on for a loooong time! Debate about something that does not exist! There is no predestination! God is outside of time! There is no "before" and "after" to Him. There is no "pre" or "post".

Yes it is mentioned in the Bible but it is merely an attempt to describe in human terms something that cannot be described in human terms. There is no time in Heaven. God is outside of time!
The bible does teach predestination just not Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew a group that would be called Christians and God preordaiend this group to be saved. But God never determined what persons would or would not be in this group.
 

Suhar

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Ernest T. Bass said:
The bible does teach predestination just not Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew a group that would be called Christians and God preordaiend this group to be saved. But God never determined what persons would or would not be in this group.
Some day you will understand just how wrong you are now but until that day only God Himself can reveal that to you. Ask for that.
 

Suhar

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Ernest T. Bass said:
Are you denying the bible teaches predestination?
Seriously? You are trying to change my mind by starting a million first debate on predestination? Really? This point has been debated for couple of centuries by countless theologians and you are not going to sove it now.
 

FHII

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Ernest T. Bass said:
The bible does teach predestination just not Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew a group that would be called Christians and God preordaiend this group to be saved. But God never determined what persons would or would not be in this group.
God may have never determined it, but that does not mean he didn't kow it. He did know it.... He did know the individuals.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Ernest T. Bass said:
Deut 30:19 and Eph 1:4 are not contradictory.

God predetermined a group (not certain individuals) and God never predetermined what individuals would be in or out of that group. So individuals choose to be in that predetermined group or not by meeting the entrance conditions God has put in place.

So God made the choice that the group (Christian) would be saved but man has to make the choice to be in that group or not.

I am with Earnest T Bass on this

God would have known ahead of time that some people would be saved ..... otherwise why would he bother ??

And if everybody was going to be saved .... there would be no need for him to distinguish between believers and non-believers.

In the purest sense probably God knew ahead of time exactly who would believe and who would not ..... I do not think he is in for any surprises when the counting is done.

There is probably a lot more to this story than we are told .... the struggle for souls happens in the spiritual realm for the most part ..... and is between God and Satan .... and that is the big picture .... we are just the objects of the game ..... we are not the game itself.
 

FHII

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Well, I'm with you on this one two... I believe God knew some people would be saved, and I believe God knew their names. I believe Paul knew their names too, but didn't address the letter just to them.
 

Poppin

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Ernest T. Bass said:
The bible does teach predestination just not Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew a group that would be called Christians and God preordaiend this group to be saved. But God never determined what persons would or would not be in this group.
Hello Ernest T. Bass.
Does God know which individuals will be saved? Isn't He omniscient?
Did He know from the beginning?
How could He not, and still be God?
Poppin.

Arnie Manitoba said:
In the purest sense probably God knew ahead of time exactly who would believe and who would not .....
Then why even proceed with creation; allowing the fall, and so on?
Why not just bypass all that and go straight to eternity with those He foreknew would believe?
Just wondering aloud. ;)
Poppin.

Romans 9
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
 

Mr.Bride

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"Then why even proceed with creation; allowing the fall, and so on?
Why not just bypass all that and go straight to eternity with those He foreknew would believe?
Just wondering aloud.
Poppin."
God wanted to be all that we know Him to be. He couldn't have been the Saviour without someone that needed saving. Sickness got Him to show up as our Healer. He redeemed us because of the fall. Before everything He was God but He wanted to show off His attributes. Our Advocate, protector, and hellhound chaser. :)

What a mighty God we serve. Because of the fall He can show His might. And also show the devil that He has children that won't give up and will always trust in Him no matter the situation. As Job said, though He slay me yet will I serve Him..
Blessings
 

KingJ

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God is out of time as He is the beginning and the end. But ALL of His creation has time. As they have a beginning. Hence there will always be time keeping in heaven. We will always remember the day Jesus died for us.

Poppin said:
Does God know which individuals will be saved? Isn't He omniscient?
No, He doesn't know. Understanding God is very difficult. Our teeny tiny brains conclude that an omniscient God does not put restrictions on Himself. But He does. He did it on the cross. God has a morale code beyond what we can grasp. He is impartial to the maximum. Knowing the individuals would make Him partial. Suggesting He is partial goes against the grain of all scripture.

There is a distinction between:
  • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
  • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

Then why even proceed with creation; allowing the fall, and so on?
Why not just bypass all that and go straight to eternity with those He foreknew would believe?
Just wondering aloud. ;)
Poppin.

Romans 9
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
Romans 9 in a nutshell is just saying that God can do whatever He wants and we have no say in it. Now we come with our teeny tiny brains and conclude that since there is a hell and bad people, He is responsible for both and hence He is partial. NO, just because He can do what He wants does not then mean He does in fact proceed and make people from birth for hell. He mentions in His word exactly what He chooses to do with His power. He chooses to be impartial and gives the ''whomsoever will' John 3:16 an opportunity.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Poppin said:
Then why even proceed with creation; allowing the fall, and so on?
Why not just bypass all that and go straight to eternity with those He foreknew would believe?
Just wondering aloud. ;)
Poppin.
.
My guess ... and speculation only .... is that God made the instant decision to end it all when mankind fell .... he stands by that decision even today .... now we have to remember God is in eternity (no time) and he has let a couple thousand years go by for mankind (who live in a "time" dimension) .... in order to allow all who will be saved to be saved.

I think there is another aspect to it .... God is just (as in justice) ... rather than simply snapping his fingers to change everything he allows everyone to make the free choice of who they side with .... I think that includes the devil and fallen spirits .... nobody will ever be able to blame God for their own choices .... it is like perfect justice .... hope that makes sense.... we become our own judges .... we chose our own destiny .... it is a deep subject and we are only given a few hints in the bible.

But you make a good point Poppin .... God designed the whole thing from the start .... including the unpleasant parts .... hard to say why he did ... I do not know.

I also do not know why he would bother with someone like me .... it just does not add up (to me)
 
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Poppin

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KingJ said:
No, He doesn't know. Understanding God is very difficult. Our teeny tiny brains conclude that an omniscient God does not put restrictions on Himself. But He does. He did it on the cross. God has a morale code beyond what we can grasp. He is impartial to the maximum. Knowing the individuals would make Him partial. Suggesting He is partial goes against the grain of all scripture.

There is a distinction between:
  • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
  • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
KingJ,
The Eternal God does not know the future? He does not know exactly who will be saved?
(Let us leave off for the moment Christ in His Incarnation)

Could you show from Scripture that God's knowledge; foreknowledge; omniscience is limited (either by His Own choice or by some Law)? How can we trust prophecies (which name specific people) He declared from the beginning, then?
Thank You,
Poppin

Molinism is an attempt to provide a solution to the classic philosophical problems associated with God's providence, foreknowledge and the freedom of humanity. This view may be traced to the 16th century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina - hence, the name Molinism. Specifically, it seeks to maintain a strong view of God's sovereignty over creation while at the same time preserving the belief that human beings have self-determined freedom, or libertarian free will.
http://www.theopedia.com/Molinism

KingJ said:
Romans 9 in a nutshell is just saying that God can do whatever He wants and we have no say in it. Now we come with our teeny tiny brains and conclude that since there is a hell and bad people, He is responsible for both and hence He is partial. NO, just because He can do what He wants does not then mean He does in fact proceed and make people from birth for hell. He mentions in His word exactly what He chooses to do with His power. He chooses to be impartial and gives the ''whomsoever will' John 3:16 an opportunity.
Impartiality and God having total knowledge are two separate issues.
Are you saying He has somehow blocked one thing (which man will decide for Him) from His mind so He can be considered impartial?
Does He owe that to us?
Just wondering...trying to ponder the conundrum.

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Vineyard Workers
14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' 16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."
 

KingJ

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Poppin said:
KingJ,
The Eternal God does not know the future? He does not know exactly who will be saved?
(Let us leave off for the moment Christ in His Incarnation)

Could you show from Scripture that God's knowledge; foreknowledge; omniscience is limited (either by His Own choice or by some Law)? How can we trust prophecies (which name specific people) He declared from the beginning, then?

Inherent omniscience = the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.

Impartiality and God having total knowledge are two separate issues.
Are you saying He has somehow blocked one thing (which man will decide for Him) from His mind so He can be considered impartial?
Does He owe that to us?
Just wondering...trying to ponder the conundrum.

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Vineyard Workers
14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' 16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Nice verse, just further proves my point. vs 15 = God can do whaterver He wants. End of vs 15 and vs 16 God tells us what He decided to do.

Impartiality and omniscience are two attributes of ONE God. Just as evil and good cannot co-exist, likewise impartiality and partiality cannot co exist. People often confuse '''showing favour'' with partiality. When we draw a picture of God in our minds we take all the ''is's'' from His word. He is good Psalm 136:1, He is just, He is impartial Acts 10:34, James 2. Furthemore we must grasp that God cannot call Himself good whilst being partial. He cannot call Himself just, whilst being partial. So what Cavinists ignore is the need to disregard not only James 2 and Acts 10:34 but most of scripture that defines God.

Now the mistake we must NEVER make is define God with our assumptions. We assume partiality by adding Creator of all + omniscienct + hell = partial = no true free will. When in fact, just like Matt 20...God tells us He is good, just and impartial. So the correct calculation is: Creator + omniscient + hell + good + just + impartial = true free will.

If all God said was Rom 9, we could be forgiven for assuming the worst about God. But to take that and ignore most of scripture is simply selective citing like what the devil did in Matt 4. Let's keep our opinions to ourselves and let scripture define God!
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Suhar said:
Seriously? You are trying to change my mind by starting a million first debate on predestination? Really? This point has been debated for couple of centuries by countless theologians and you are not going to sove it now.
There is nothing to be solved, the bible already tells us, as I post in post #2.
FHII said:
God may have never determined it, but that does not mean he didn't kow it. He did know it.... He did know the individuals.
God has foreknowledge but did not predetermine who is or is not in the group 'Christian".
Poppin said:
Hello Ernest T. Bass.
Does God know which individuals will be saved? Isn't He omniscient?
Did He know from the beginning?
How could He not, and still be God?
Poppin.
God has foreknowledge but foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.
 

Poppin

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KingJ said:
Inherent omniscience = the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
KingJ said:
Nice verse, just further proves my point. vs 15 = God can do whaterver He wants. End of vs 15 and vs 16 God tells us what He decided to do.

Impartiality and omniscience are two attributes of ONE God. Just as evil and good cannot co-exist, likewise impartiality and partiality cannot co exist. People often confuse '''showing favour'' with partiality. When we draw a picture of God in our minds we take all the ''is's'' from His word. He is good Psalm 136:1, He is just, He is impartial Acts 10:34, James 2. Furthemore we must grasp that God cannot call Himself good whilst being partial. He cannot call Himself just, whilst being partial. So what Cavinists ignore is the need to disregard not only James 2 and Acts 10:34 but most of scripture that defines God.

Now the mistake we must NEVER make is define God with our assumptions. We assume partiality by adding Creator of all + omniscienct + hell = partial = no true free will. When in fact, just like Matt 20...God tells us He is good, just and impartial. So the correct calculation is: Creator + omniscient + hell + good + just + impartial = true free will.

If all God said was Rom 9, we could be forgiven for assuming the worst about God. But to take that and ignore most of scripture is simply selective citing like what the devil did in Matt 4. Let's keep our opinions to ourselves and let scripture define God!
KingJ,
Thank you. I am not a Calvinist, nor am I arguing one thing over another.
However, I was hoping you would prove That God has chosen to not know something (anything/any example - not just according to the "decisions" of men).

Where did He say He would do that (limit His Own ability to KNOW)?

I agree with you here, for certain:

"Let's keep our opinions to ourselves and let scripture define God!"

For that reason, could you show me where Scripture tells us there is anything God does not know, for any reason.
God Bless!
Poppin.

Ernest T. Bass said:
God has foreknowledge but did not predetermine who is or is not in the group 'Christian".

God has foreknowledge but foreknowledge does not necessitate predetermination.
Hello Ernest T. Bass :)

So (hypothetically); before God began creation, He looked down through the corridors of time and saw which men would choose Him, then proceeded with creation?

So all of creation is based on the will of men? (of course not - but this is the (il)logical conclusion, isn't it?)
Poppin