WHO IS THE CHURCH OF GOD? ****

[Randy Kluth]

The new covenant is not the same as the new testament
The new covenant is yet future and for Israel
The new testament was the shed blood and resurrection for the transgressions of Israel...it required the death of the testator...it was revealed to Paul that the shed blood and resurrection was also for the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ

No, the New Covenant is a synonym for the New Testament. It's ludicrous for you to say otherwise. Where does anybody speaking the English language admit as such?

Again, the New Covenant/the New Testament was Jesus giving his life for all, Jew and Gentile, OT and NT. What was revealed to Paul is that this New Covenant which in the OT appeared to be for Israel alone was actually designed for all nations. It completely supplants the Old Covenant of Law.

The legal barrier between Jew and Gentile came down. It actually happened with the death of Christ. It began to be understood as such when it was revealed to Paul exactly what Christ had done, in providing a new priesthood and a new law.

 

[Doug]

This I don't understand? How can men and women preach Jesus' name and not be the "Body of Christ?"

At the first Jesus was only sent to Israel :
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was, by the new testament, only to redeem Israel:
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Jesus was to cleanse Israel to be kings and priests in the kingdom on earth, to reign with Christ:
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There was a separation between Jew and Gentile during the earthly ministry of Christ:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Even after the cross, Peter upheld the separation of Jew and Gentile:
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

In the body of Christ, there is no separation between Jew and Gentile:
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The gospel preached to Israel by Christ and Peter and the disciples is:
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom on earth promised Israel.
Those who believed this gospel are the kingdom saints.

The conclusion is that there can be two gospels preached. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the kingdom in which the kingdom saints would inherit the earth, and the body of Christ the heavenly places, preached by Paul. The gospel preached by Peter and the disciples was only the name of Jesus, Paul preached the cross. Both groups are saved, but we are to believe not just the name of Jesus, but the cross.

 

[Doug]

The distinction you're imagining between co-gatherings of "Kingdom Saints" and members of the "Body of Christ" is not delineated in biblical theology. In other words, it doesn't exist except in your own ideas.

Here is one example of Paul writing about kingdom saints and not the body of Christ:
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

 

[Doug]

My thought is that Paul 1st came to *understand* what Christ had made a reality at the cross. It was *at the cross* that this mystery became a reality, and not necessarily when it was initially understood as such.

Paul was talking about something that happened earlier, with the death and resurrection of Christ, and is distinguishing that from his own revelation of what that meant.

The Body of Christ was born with Christ himself, when he died to produce the Church. It did not wait for Paul to understand it!

A mystery does not depend on our understanding....a mystery is hid in God

 

[Randy Kluth]

At the first Jesus was only sent to Israel :
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was, by the new testament, only to redeem Israel:
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Yes, Jesus was sent *first* to Israel, and then to the other nations. That's what Paul always said, "to the Jew 1st, and also to the Gentile." This did not mean the NT death and resurrection was exclusively for the Jews, but only applied initially to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. The priesthood of Christ was designed not to be of the Law, which had separated Israel out from pagans. But inasmuch as he brought a new priesthood, there was no separation involved in this sacrifice.

Jesus was to cleanse Israel to be kings and priests in the kingdom on earth, to reign with Christ:
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The book of Revelation was written to Christians for Christians--not just to the Jewish nation.

There was a separation between Jew and Gentile during the earthly ministry of Christ:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Even after the cross, Peter upheld the separation of Jew and Gentile:
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Peter did not uphold the validity of the Law, but rather, was stating a fact about the Jewish People, that whether or not the Law was still viewed as valid by the Jews, that's what they had been called to do under the Law. They had been called--past tense--to separate from pagan nations around them on the eternal principle of sanctification. They at that time, and even us today, are called to separate ourselves from paganism.

Peter was actually arguing that Christ came to reach out to the Gentiles, just as God had initially reached out to the Hebrews, thereby removing the separation of the Jews from the Gentiles with respect to a covenant relationship with God. The New Covenant includes all, Jew and Gentile, in its provisions for salvation.

In the body of Christ, there is no separation between Jew and Gentile:
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The gospel preached to Israel by Christ and Peter and the disciples is:
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom on earth promised Israel.
Those who believed this gospel are the kingdom saints.

That message of repentance on behalf of the coming Kingdom is the same message preached today. The only difference is that the message was first preached while the Law was still in effect, and Israel alone was in covenant relationship with God. All that changed after the death of Christ. That's where Israel failed under the old system, to be replaced with Christ's new system, which applies to all sinners.

The conclusion is that there can be two gospels preached. Peter and the eleven preached the gospel of the kingdom in which the kingdom saints would inherit the earth, and the body of Christ the heavenly places, preached by Paul. The gospel preached by Peter and the disciples was only the name of Jesus, Paul preached the cross. Both groups are saved, but we are to believe not just the name of Jesus, but the cross.

I think there are differences between Israel before the cross and God's People after the cross. And you could say that the Gospel was different, because the Gospel was initially preached under the Law. But I would say that biblically, the Gospel of the NT Scriptures is the same Gospel that Jesus initially preached, which is that he came to die for sinners. That happened just as Israel failed under the Law, becoming equal to pagans who had formerly not been qualified under the Law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here is one example of Paul writing about kingdom saints and not the body of Christ:
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Please explain how that applies? Paul is merely distinguishing between ethnicities and nationalities, between Jew, as he had been under the Law, and Gentile, as they now have become co-heirs with the Jews. We all agree that in the church there are Germans and Swedes, Russians and Chinese. None of this means there are distinct groups of "Kingdom Saints" and the "Body of Christ!"

 

[Randy Kluth]

A mystery does not depend on our understanding....a mystery is hid in God

The mystery was *revealed* in Christ's coming, death and resurrection for all! It was not under the Law, as Israel had supposed. And it was a good thing that it wasn't--Israel utterly failed under the Law, just as it was inevitable that sin, from the beginning, would always disqualify mankind from eternal life.

And so, the mystery was that Jesus came apart from the Law, ignoring Israel's failure under the Law, and ignoring the failures of all pagans, to bring a sacrifice for all. This priesthood was different, showing that the mystery was a different kind of sacrifice and a different kind of priesthood that brings forgiveness apart from any legal distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Doug]

No, the New Covenant is a synonym for the New Testament. It's ludicrous for you to say otherwise. Where does anybody speaking the English language admit as such?

Again, the New Covenant/the New Testament was Jesus giving his life for all, Jew and Gentile, OT and NT. What was revealed to Paul is that this New Covenant which in the OT appeared to be for Israel alone was actually designed for all nations. It completely supplants the Old Covenant of Law.

The legal barrier between Jew and Gentile came down. It actually happened with the death of Christ. It began to be understood as such when it was revealed to Paul exactly what Christ had done, in providing a new priesthood and a new law.

Very well
Look at Ezekiel and see if the new testament is a synonym for the new covenant:
Ezekiel 36:22 Say to Israel
Ezekiel 36:24 Israel will be brought into the land
Ezekiel 36:25 Israel cleansed
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart and spirit for Israel
Ezekiel 36:27 Israel by the spirit caused to walk in the statutes

 

[Doug]

Please explain how that applies? Paul is merely distinguishing between ethnicities and nationalities, between Jew, as he had been under the Law, and Gentile, as they now have become co-heirs with the Jews. We all agree that in the church there are Germans and Swedes, Russians and Chinese. None of this means there are distinct groups of "Kingdom Saints" and the "Body of Christ!"

I was responding to this:
The distinction you're imagining between co-gatherings of "Kingdom Saints" and members of the "Body of Christ" is not delineated in biblical theology. In other words, it doesn't exist except in your own ideas.
by this:
Here is one example of Paul writing about kingdom saints and not the body of Christ:
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

You were saying that interaction between Paul and the kingdom saints did not exist

 

[WaterSong]

We who are born again in Christ and holy spirit filled are the church of Christ. :)

 

[JesusLovesYou]

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

The members of the church of God were Jews and Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus, Peter and the disciples. These Jews and Gentiles are kingdom saints who believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23), the prophetic kingdom on earth, in which, they would reign with Christ; they believed on the name of Jesus, that he is the Son of God, the Christ (John 3:18 John 20:31).

The body of Christ is the church formed in this dispensation of grace, composed of Jew and Gentile who believe Paul's gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). The body of Christ was not revealed or formed before Paul's conversion (Ephesians 3:2-9 1 Timothy 1:16).

The church of God consists of all who are purchased by the blood of Jesus, both the kingdom saints and the body of Christ.

These Jews and Gentiles, the kingdom saints, were members of the church of God, not the body of Christ.

The Church is the body of Christ. It is a fact that Apostle Paul persecuted the Church, just as it is a fact that he contributed to planting some local churches, but the body of Christ and the Church of Christ are one and the same thing. Christ is the head of the Church, and the Church forms the body of Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was responding to this:
The distinction you're imagining between co-gatherings of "Kingdom Saints" and members of the "Body of Christ" is not delineated in biblical theology. In other words, it doesn't exist except in your own ideas.
by this:
Here is one example of Paul writing about kingdom saints and not the body of Christ:
Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

You were saying that interaction between Paul and the kingdom saints did not exist

No, I don't believe I did. I indicated that there is no distinction, which you're making, between Kingdom Saints and the Body of Christ in the Scriptures. Once we arrive in the NT era, all saints, OT and NT, become part of the Body of Christ. Rom 15.27 does not in the least address this.

We are all united, spiritually, in Christ's Body, such that we died with him to all our sins, and come to live in his perfect righteousness . It's not that we're perfect, but that we're embracing *his perfection,* his perfect, divine love.

And we embrace him not just as a sometimes lifestyle, but more, as our entire life, as if we are his own physical body. And so, we actually spiritually unite with his Body, and obtain the benefits of his Body.

We die to sin, and are forgiven for our sin. And we rise in his righteous life, and ascend into heaven with him to rule over sin in our lives. We are as one with his Body through the Spirit that he gave us.

There is no salvation outside of this reality. Therefore, all saints must be part of his Body.