Who Is God Talking To?
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
This may answer some of your questions @Bob Estey
I know there will be some that will find hmmm.. opposition to the entire video. It is almost an hour long with lots of information.
But the question you have about who is in heaven with God in the process of creation, I found this very interesting.
It's about his right hand.
Don't get distracted by "the law" or commandments unless you want to.
Listen to the explanation to the question you have asked.
Maybe this will help.
HUGS
I know there will be some that will find hmmm.. opposition to the entire video. It is almost an hour long with lots of information.
But the question you have about who is in heaven with God in the process of creation, I found this very interesting.
It's about his right hand.
Don't get distracted by "the law" or commandments unless you want to.
Listen to the explanation to the question you have asked.
Maybe this will help.
HUGS
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Psa 68:17
The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
Deu 33:2
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
So, in Sinai we have thousands of angels and thousands of saints.
Are they the same?
Hugs
The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
Deu 33:2
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
So, in Sinai we have thousands of angels and thousands of saints.
Are they the same?
Hugs
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
I'd have to disagree, man wasn't created in the likeness and image of angels.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
@Bob Estey just to add some refs for the royal we or majesty Creator-King
a few lines for sure and a video at the end..
----------------------
Just to make things interesting, let me throw in another interpretation. Ibn Ezra (Rabbi Abraham ben Meir ibn Ezra (1089?-1164) opines that G‑d wasn't referring to anybody, rather he was employing majestic plural, pluralis majestatis.
by Rabbi Menachem Posner serves as staff editor at Chabad.org, the world’s largest Jewish informational website.
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is also a grammatical reason that could most naturally explain God's reference to Himself as "us". In Hebrew, there is a feature called the plural of majesty. The plural of majesty was used when a ruler or king spoke of himself in the plural form in reference to his greatness. Instead of speaking of "my rule," a king might speak of "our rule" over the land, even if he was speaking only of himself. Many Hebrew scholars believe this is the most appropriate understanding of these verses. God, in His greatness, referred to Himself as "us" as other rulers did during that time.
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Majestic plural / royal we
Narrowly speaking the majestic plural or royal we is the use of a plural pronoun to refer to a singular monarch, as in (for the reference see the Wikipedia page):
By the Grace of God, We, Alexander I, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias ...
As far as I know, when a pronoun is used to refer to God, a singular form is used. (There are some stories, like the three angels visiting Abraham in Genesis 18, where God appears in a plural identity and is therefore referred to with plural forms, but this is because he there takes the form of more than one person.)
The royal we is related to the T-V distinction in languages like French, which can use the second person plural pronoun (vous) as a polite / honorific form to address singular persons, instead of the singular form (tu). Biblical Hebrew has a different system for polite address; it avoids the second person and uses the third person instead. For example (1 Samuel 26:19):
וְעַתָּ֗ה יִֽשְׁמַֽע־נָא֙ אֲדֹנִ֣י הַמֶּ֔לֶךְ אֵ֖ת דִּבְרֵ֣י עַבְדֹּ֑ו
and now, let listen my lord the king to the words of his servant
And now, my lord the king, please listen to my, your servant's, words.
Joüon & Muraoka (2006: A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew. Rome: Gregorian & Biblical Press) state plainly (§114eN):
The we of majesty does not exist in Hebrew.
Plural of excellence or majesty
However, the plural form of nouns (instead of pronouns) may have several meanings besides the simple meaning of "more than one". Joüon & Muraoka list a great number of nuances of the plural (§136):
Plural of extension: שָׁמַ֫יִם šāmayim (sky, heavens), because the heavens are composed of multiple parts
Plural of composition: דָּמִים dāmim (bloods > bloodshed)
Plural of intensity: בְּהֵמוֹת Bəhēmōṯ, for its greatness
Plural of abstraction: בַּטֻּחוֹת baṭṭuḥōṯ (security, from sure circumstances)
(The word מַ֫יִם mayim (water) which you mention can be explained as a plural of extension or composition.)
There is also the plural of excellence or majesty, which occurs in words like:
אֱלֹהִים 'ělōhim (non-Israelite gods or the Israelite God)
קְדֹשִים qəḏōšim (the Holy One: Proverbs 9:10; 30:3)
אֲדֹנִים 'ǎḏōnim (ordinarily lords or the Lord, especially in 'ǎḏōnāy my Lord)
It seems that this is, at least in poetry, not restricted to the deity: שֹׁלְחָיו šōləḥāw (he who has sent him: Proverbs 10:26); מְרִימָיו mərīmāw (he who lifts it: Isaiah 10:15).
linguistics.stackexchange.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical
Hebrew
The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is
also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural
forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, .....
----------------------------------------------------------
The use of 'elohîm as divine beings definitely separate from Yahweh (e.g., Gen. 6, Ps. 82) proves conclusively that this divine pluralism is not just a grammatical one. Henotheism is seen in the fact that Yahweh is referred to as 'El 'elim (God of gods, Dan. 11:36) or in the use of the definite article ha 'elohîm (the God) for Yahweh, or b‘n‘ 'elohîm (the sons of God) for the other gods (Gen. 6:2; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7).With regard to these divine "sons," Cooke states: "These are not 'sons' of Yahweh in a filial sense...the 'sons of (the) God(s)' are those who are of the realm of the gods, who partake of divinity."17 Gensenius agrees that b‘n‘ 'elohîm "properly means not sons of god(s), but beings of the class of 'elohîm of 'elim...."18
Some Christian commentators have taken the ontological pluralism of 'elohîm as definite proof of the Trinity. Genesis 18, where three mysterious visitors come to Abraham, has been used to support this view.19 But rather than imposing a Christian view developed two millennia later on the Hebrews, the proper hermeneutic strategy would be to place it in the context of the religions of the ancient Near East.
HEBREW HENOTHEISM
Nicholas F. Gier, Professor Emeritus, University of Idaho ([email protected])
--------------------------------
Hebrew scholars are divided as to the reason why "elohim" usually occurs in plural form, even when it is not plural in function. One theory is that it is equivalent to a "plural of majesty" (pluralis majestatis). Proponents of this theory believe the plural form magnifies the greatness of God, and is akin to the usage of the ancient kings who referred to their singular persons by the plural "we." It should be noted, however, that none of them also used a singular verb with that plural, i.e. they did not say "we is"--which is the Hebrew form. (A few of my Hebrew instructors have held this theory.)
A second common theory states that the word "elohim" itself is not originally a Hebrew word, but is a loanword from Syriac/Aramaic. Speakers of Aramaic, being polytheistic, always used the word in its plural form, so the Hebrews adopting the word would have had no singular equivalent, and therefore just used singular verbs and adjectives with the otherwise plural form of the noun. (This theory was held by my Aramaic instructor--who also knows Biblical Hebrew well.)
Genesis 1:26 is a special verse, being unique in using a plural verb with "elohim" when referencing the true God. Before assuming that this must refer to a plural "God," one must understand that "elohim" does not mean only "god" in Hebrew usage. It can apply to human judges (e.g. Exodus 22:8), and it can apply to angels, as it does in Psalm 8:5 (compare Hebrews 2:7 where this is quoted in Greek). So whomever the other individual(s) may be in Genesis 1:26, it is not at all clear that the verse establishes them on an equality with God. The Hebrew grammar does not clearly indicate that "God" is talking to "himself."
Conclusion
Because no one knows all of the exact reasons why Biblical Hebrew uses a word that appears plural in form to address God, it is important to be careful of making claims that are not fully supported. There is wide room for interpretation on this question if one looks strictly at the grammatical possibilities inherent to the original Hebrew.
hermeneutics.stackexchange.com
-----------------------continued on next post below-------------
a few lines for sure and a video at the end..
----------------------
Just to make things interesting, let me throw in another interpretation. Ibn Ezra (Rabbi Abraham ben Meir ibn Ezra (1089?-1164) opines that G‑d wasn't referring to anybody, rather he was employing majestic plural, pluralis majestatis.
by Rabbi Menachem Posner serves as staff editor at Chabad.org, the world’s largest Jewish informational website.
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is also a grammatical reason that could most naturally explain God's reference to Himself as "us". In Hebrew, there is a feature called the plural of majesty. The plural of majesty was used when a ruler or king spoke of himself in the plural form in reference to his greatness. Instead of speaking of "my rule," a king might speak of "our rule" over the land, even if he was speaking only of himself. Many Hebrew scholars believe this is the most appropriate understanding of these verses. God, in His greatness, referred to Himself as "us" as other rulers did during that time.
Why is the plural used for God in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22?
Why is the plural used for God in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22? Does the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 refer to the Trinity, to angels, or to something else?
www.compellingtruth.org
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Majestic plural / royal we
Narrowly speaking the majestic plural or royal we is the use of a plural pronoun to refer to a singular monarch, as in (for the reference see the Wikipedia page):
By the Grace of God, We, Alexander I, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias ...
As far as I know, when a pronoun is used to refer to God, a singular form is used. (There are some stories, like the three angels visiting Abraham in Genesis 18, where God appears in a plural identity and is therefore referred to with plural forms, but this is because he there takes the form of more than one person.)
The royal we is related to the T-V distinction in languages like French, which can use the second person plural pronoun (vous) as a polite / honorific form to address singular persons, instead of the singular form (tu). Biblical Hebrew has a different system for polite address; it avoids the second person and uses the third person instead. For example (1 Samuel 26:19):
וְעַתָּ֗ה יִֽשְׁמַֽע־נָא֙ אֲדֹנִ֣י הַמֶּ֔לֶךְ אֵ֖ת דִּבְרֵ֣י עַבְדֹּ֑ו
and now, let listen my lord the king to the words of his servant
And now, my lord the king, please listen to my, your servant's, words.
Joüon & Muraoka (2006: A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew. Rome: Gregorian & Biblical Press) state plainly (§114eN):
The we of majesty does not exist in Hebrew.
Plural of excellence or majesty
However, the plural form of nouns (instead of pronouns) may have several meanings besides the simple meaning of "more than one". Joüon & Muraoka list a great number of nuances of the plural (§136):
Plural of extension: שָׁמַ֫יִם šāmayim (sky, heavens), because the heavens are composed of multiple parts
Plural of composition: דָּמִים dāmim (bloods > bloodshed)
Plural of intensity: בְּהֵמוֹת Bəhēmōṯ, for its greatness
Plural of abstraction: בַּטֻּחוֹת baṭṭuḥōṯ (security, from sure circumstances)
(The word מַ֫יִם mayim (water) which you mention can be explained as a plural of extension or composition.)
There is also the plural of excellence or majesty, which occurs in words like:
אֱלֹהִים 'ělōhim (non-Israelite gods or the Israelite God)
קְדֹשִים qəḏōšim (the Holy One: Proverbs 9:10; 30:3)
אֲדֹנִים 'ǎḏōnim (ordinarily lords or the Lord, especially in 'ǎḏōnāy my Lord)
It seems that this is, at least in poetry, not restricted to the deity: שֹׁלְחָיו šōləḥāw (he who has sent him: Proverbs 10:26); מְרִימָיו mərīmāw (he who lifts it: Isaiah 10:15).
Does Biblical Hebrew have a plural of majesty?
Does Biblical Hebrew have a plural of majesty? I'm aware there's the word Elohim which can mean God or gods. But I don't think that's good evidence of plural of majesty because for example, you hav...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical
Hebrew
The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is
also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural
forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, .....
----------------------------------------------------------
The use of 'elohîm as divine beings definitely separate from Yahweh (e.g., Gen. 6, Ps. 82) proves conclusively that this divine pluralism is not just a grammatical one. Henotheism is seen in the fact that Yahweh is referred to as 'El 'elim (God of gods, Dan. 11:36) or in the use of the definite article ha 'elohîm (the God) for Yahweh, or b‘n‘ 'elohîm (the sons of God) for the other gods (Gen. 6:2; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7).With regard to these divine "sons," Cooke states: "These are not 'sons' of Yahweh in a filial sense...the 'sons of (the) God(s)' are those who are of the realm of the gods, who partake of divinity."17 Gensenius agrees that b‘n‘ 'elohîm "properly means not sons of god(s), but beings of the class of 'elohîm of 'elim...."18
Some Christian commentators have taken the ontological pluralism of 'elohîm as definite proof of the Trinity. Genesis 18, where three mysterious visitors come to Abraham, has been used to support this view.19 But rather than imposing a Christian view developed two millennia later on the Hebrews, the proper hermeneutic strategy would be to place it in the context of the religions of the ancient Near East.
HEBREW HENOTHEISM
Nicholas F. Gier, Professor Emeritus, University of Idaho ([email protected])
--------------------------------
Hebrew scholars are divided as to the reason why "elohim" usually occurs in plural form, even when it is not plural in function. One theory is that it is equivalent to a "plural of majesty" (pluralis majestatis). Proponents of this theory believe the plural form magnifies the greatness of God, and is akin to the usage of the ancient kings who referred to their singular persons by the plural "we." It should be noted, however, that none of them also used a singular verb with that plural, i.e. they did not say "we is"--which is the Hebrew form. (A few of my Hebrew instructors have held this theory.)
A second common theory states that the word "elohim" itself is not originally a Hebrew word, but is a loanword from Syriac/Aramaic. Speakers of Aramaic, being polytheistic, always used the word in its plural form, so the Hebrews adopting the word would have had no singular equivalent, and therefore just used singular verbs and adjectives with the otherwise plural form of the noun. (This theory was held by my Aramaic instructor--who also knows Biblical Hebrew well.)
Genesis 1:26 is a special verse, being unique in using a plural verb with "elohim" when referencing the true God. Before assuming that this must refer to a plural "God," one must understand that "elohim" does not mean only "god" in Hebrew usage. It can apply to human judges (e.g. Exodus 22:8), and it can apply to angels, as it does in Psalm 8:5 (compare Hebrews 2:7 where this is quoted in Greek). So whomever the other individual(s) may be in Genesis 1:26, it is not at all clear that the verse establishes them on an equality with God. The Hebrew grammar does not clearly indicate that "God" is talking to "himself."
Conclusion
Because no one knows all of the exact reasons why Biblical Hebrew uses a word that appears plural in form to address God, it is important to be careful of making claims that are not fully supported. There is wide room for interpretation on this question if one looks strictly at the grammatical possibilities inherent to the original Hebrew.
Is there a majestic plural in ancient Hebrew?
In Genesis 1 God (Elohim) says "Let Us make man in Our image" Now Elohim (plural) is used throughout the Bible with verbs in the singular, so it can be seen as just a title of God roughly
-----------------------continued on next post below-------------
--------the cause of the plural 'us' for the Creator-King continued-----------------
by Tovia Singer
Question: Did Someone Find the Doctrine of the Trinity In the Name of God? Why is God’s Name “Elohim” Plural?
Dear Rabbi Singer,
First, let me say that what you are doing is a great service to Jews and the religious community at large. You are setting the record straight – one that has needed correction for almost 2,000 years! Thank you.
Yesterday, a Christian business associate made a point that in the very first verse of Genesis G-d is referred to as “Elohim” which is plural. She also said that it is a plural form of three (something I have never heard before). That, she concludes, is proof of the Trinity! Why is G-d’s name plural in this verse?
Answer:
The claim advanced by your business associate is one of the more well-known arguments used by missionaries to defend the doctrine of the Trinity, the most guarded and untenable creed of the Church. It would be difficult to imagine a doctrine more hostile to the uncompromising monotheism preached in the Jewish Scriptures than the Christian claim that there is a plurality within the divine nature of God. Yet, armed with little knowledge of the Hebrew language, many Trinitarians brazenly argue that the name of God, as it appears in the first verse in the Bible, “proves” there are three distinct Persons in the godhead.
More specifically, missionaries point to the plural form of the Hebrew name of God אֶלהִים, (Elohim), which appears frequently in the Torah, to bolster their claim that there is a complex unity in the godhead. They argue that the use of the Hebrew letters “ ים” (yud and mem, pronounced “im”), which is a plural suffix at the end of the word Elohim, provides ample evidence from Tanach that there is a plurality within the nature of God. Your business associate went out on an even more bizarre limb when she declared that this Hebrew syntax is somehow indicative of the “plural form of three.”
You can rest assured that the Hebrew tongue is a foreign language to your business associate, and that both of her contentions are erroneous. While her first assertion can be easily explained away by her lack of familiarity with the biblical language, her second point cannot. Her latter comment that the plural suffix in Elohim is indicative of “a plural form of three” is particularly preposterous, and illustrates the desperation and frustration some Trinitarians display in their rash effort to defend this alien Church creed.
While I too have never heard any missionary make the astounding claim that plurals somehow mean “a plural form of three,” the incentive for spawning this irresponsible contrivance is clear. If you examine the few verses evangelicals use from the Jewish Scriptures as they seek to buttress the doctrine of the Trinity, you will notice that none of them, even in Christian terms, speaks of three persons. In essence, her flawed declaration was born out of a desperate desire to weave the Trinity out of whole Jewish cloth. This is an impossible task.
Bear in mind, there is no mystery as to the origins of the Trinity, nor is there any secret for how this aberrant doctrine emerged. The doctrine of the Trinity was forged out of the crucible of the Catholic Church long after the Christian century. It is, therefore, no wonder that this pagan doctrine was unknown to authors of the New Testament (click here to see list). Church history reveals that it was not until three hundred years after the birth of Christianity that the doctrine of the Bianity (325 C.E.) and Trinity (381 C.E.) received formal approval in the Christian community. These well documented events occurred under circumstances rife with contention, political agitation, and radical dissension in the early Church.
In essence, the Jewish people never believed in a Trinity, and the Church adopted it under enormous political pressure from the most pagan segments of the young Catholic Church. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to prove this fourth century doctrine from a radically monotheistic Torah which is timeless. Let’s examine your business associate’s claim.
There is an enormous difficulty with the interpretation that the name Elohim signifies a sort of plurality in the godhead; for if Elohim implies a plurality of persons, how can missionaries explain that the identical word Elohim in Tanach refers to Moses as well? Regarding Moses, the Torah says,
The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made thee a god אֶלהִים, (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”
(Exodus 7:1 KJV)
Are missionaries suggesting that there was a plurality of persons in Moses? Is your associate going to insist that Moses was part of a Trinity? The notion that Moses, who is called Elohim in the Torah, possessed more than one person is preposterous. Moreover, if the name of God is to signify a plurality in the godhead, why wasn’t the nameJehovah, which is by far the most frequently used name for God in the Jewish Scriptures, also written in the plural? Clearly, this sort of Trinitarian argument is baseless.
The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. In Hebrew, the suffix ים (im), mainly indicates a masculine plural. However with Elohim the construction is grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the God of Israel, but grammatically plural elohim (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).
This is self-evident from the fact that the verb “created” בָּרָה (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is in the singular. This linguistic pattern is well known and widely used throughout the Jewish Scriptures. For example, I am certain that many readers are familiar with the Hebrew word חַיִים (chayim), meaning “life.” Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix “im,” as inElohim, yet it repeatedly means “life”, in the singular, throughout the Bible. Examples are:
And Rebekah said to Isaac, “I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life חַיִים (chayim) be to me?”
(Genesis 27:46)
You have granted me life חַיִים (chayim) and favor, and Your care has preserved my spirit.
(Job 10:12)
The fact that the name of God, Elohim, does not in any way imply a plurality in the godhead is well known and widely recognized even among Trinitarian Christians. For example, in the New International Version Study Bible (NIV), which is a Christian commentary that can not be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith, the Christian author writes in his commentary on Genesis 1:1:
God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.
(New International Version Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 6.)
Finally, it is important that we explore the crucial message which the name Elohim conveys to the Children of Israel. To be sure, two questions must be answered. 1) Why does the Torah employ this intensive plural name for the Almighty throughout the Torah? 2) Why is this name predominant throughout the creation narrative in the beginning of Genesis?
There is a fundamental principal regarding the many names of the Almighty as they appear in the Torah – they are exalted descriptions of the God of Israel. The name Elohim, which is not an exception to this rule, comes from the Hebrew root el, which means “might” or “power.” This common root appears in a variety of words throughout the Jewish Scriptures. For example, we find this word used in the famous opening words to Psalm 29, הָבוּ ליהוה בְּנֵי אֵלִים(havu la’donai b’nai eylim). This chapter is well known because this Psalm is joyously sung in every synagogue as the Torah scroll is returned into the ark following a congregational reading. What do these noble words mean?
“Ascribe to the Lord, O sons of the mighty. Ascribe to the Lord glory and strength”
(Psalm 29:1)
continued below---------------
by Tovia Singer
Question: Did Someone Find the Doctrine of the Trinity In the Name of God? Why is God’s Name “Elohim” Plural?
Dear Rabbi Singer,
First, let me say that what you are doing is a great service to Jews and the religious community at large. You are setting the record straight – one that has needed correction for almost 2,000 years! Thank you.
Yesterday, a Christian business associate made a point that in the very first verse of Genesis G-d is referred to as “Elohim” which is plural. She also said that it is a plural form of three (something I have never heard before). That, she concludes, is proof of the Trinity! Why is G-d’s name plural in this verse?
Answer:
The claim advanced by your business associate is one of the more well-known arguments used by missionaries to defend the doctrine of the Trinity, the most guarded and untenable creed of the Church. It would be difficult to imagine a doctrine more hostile to the uncompromising monotheism preached in the Jewish Scriptures than the Christian claim that there is a plurality within the divine nature of God. Yet, armed with little knowledge of the Hebrew language, many Trinitarians brazenly argue that the name of God, as it appears in the first verse in the Bible, “proves” there are three distinct Persons in the godhead.
More specifically, missionaries point to the plural form of the Hebrew name of God אֶלהִים, (Elohim), which appears frequently in the Torah, to bolster their claim that there is a complex unity in the godhead. They argue that the use of the Hebrew letters “ ים” (yud and mem, pronounced “im”), which is a plural suffix at the end of the word Elohim, provides ample evidence from Tanach that there is a plurality within the nature of God. Your business associate went out on an even more bizarre limb when she declared that this Hebrew syntax is somehow indicative of the “plural form of three.”
You can rest assured that the Hebrew tongue is a foreign language to your business associate, and that both of her contentions are erroneous. While her first assertion can be easily explained away by her lack of familiarity with the biblical language, her second point cannot. Her latter comment that the plural suffix in Elohim is indicative of “a plural form of three” is particularly preposterous, and illustrates the desperation and frustration some Trinitarians display in their rash effort to defend this alien Church creed.
While I too have never heard any missionary make the astounding claim that plurals somehow mean “a plural form of three,” the incentive for spawning this irresponsible contrivance is clear. If you examine the few verses evangelicals use from the Jewish Scriptures as they seek to buttress the doctrine of the Trinity, you will notice that none of them, even in Christian terms, speaks of three persons. In essence, her flawed declaration was born out of a desperate desire to weave the Trinity out of whole Jewish cloth. This is an impossible task.
Bear in mind, there is no mystery as to the origins of the Trinity, nor is there any secret for how this aberrant doctrine emerged. The doctrine of the Trinity was forged out of the crucible of the Catholic Church long after the Christian century. It is, therefore, no wonder that this pagan doctrine was unknown to authors of the New Testament (click here to see list). Church history reveals that it was not until three hundred years after the birth of Christianity that the doctrine of the Bianity (325 C.E.) and Trinity (381 C.E.) received formal approval in the Christian community. These well documented events occurred under circumstances rife with contention, political agitation, and radical dissension in the early Church.
In essence, the Jewish people never believed in a Trinity, and the Church adopted it under enormous political pressure from the most pagan segments of the young Catholic Church. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to prove this fourth century doctrine from a radically monotheistic Torah which is timeless. Let’s examine your business associate’s claim.
There is an enormous difficulty with the interpretation that the name Elohim signifies a sort of plurality in the godhead; for if Elohim implies a plurality of persons, how can missionaries explain that the identical word Elohim in Tanach refers to Moses as well? Regarding Moses, the Torah says,
The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made thee a god אֶלהִים, (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”
(Exodus 7:1 KJV)
Are missionaries suggesting that there was a plurality of persons in Moses? Is your associate going to insist that Moses was part of a Trinity? The notion that Moses, who is called Elohim in the Torah, possessed more than one person is preposterous. Moreover, if the name of God is to signify a plurality in the godhead, why wasn’t the nameJehovah, which is by far the most frequently used name for God in the Jewish Scriptures, also written in the plural? Clearly, this sort of Trinitarian argument is baseless.
The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. In Hebrew, the suffix ים (im), mainly indicates a masculine plural. However with Elohim the construction is grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the God of Israel, but grammatically plural elohim (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).
This is self-evident from the fact that the verb “created” בָּרָה (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is in the singular. This linguistic pattern is well known and widely used throughout the Jewish Scriptures. For example, I am certain that many readers are familiar with the Hebrew word חַיִים (chayim), meaning “life.” Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix “im,” as inElohim, yet it repeatedly means “life”, in the singular, throughout the Bible. Examples are:
And Rebekah said to Isaac, “I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life חַיִים (chayim) be to me?”
(Genesis 27:46)
You have granted me life חַיִים (chayim) and favor, and Your care has preserved my spirit.
(Job 10:12)
The fact that the name of God, Elohim, does not in any way imply a plurality in the godhead is well known and widely recognized even among Trinitarian Christians. For example, in the New International Version Study Bible (NIV), which is a Christian commentary that can not be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith, the Christian author writes in his commentary on Genesis 1:1:
God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.
(New International Version Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 6.)
Finally, it is important that we explore the crucial message which the name Elohim conveys to the Children of Israel. To be sure, two questions must be answered. 1) Why does the Torah employ this intensive plural name for the Almighty throughout the Torah? 2) Why is this name predominant throughout the creation narrative in the beginning of Genesis?
There is a fundamental principal regarding the many names of the Almighty as they appear in the Torah – they are exalted descriptions of the God of Israel. The name Elohim, which is not an exception to this rule, comes from the Hebrew root el, which means “might” or “power.” This common root appears in a variety of words throughout the Jewish Scriptures. For example, we find this word used in the famous opening words to Psalm 29, הָבוּ ליהוה בְּנֵי אֵלִים(havu la’donai b’nai eylim). This chapter is well known because this Psalm is joyously sung in every synagogue as the Torah scroll is returned into the ark following a congregational reading. What do these noble words mean?
“Ascribe to the Lord, O sons of the mighty. Ascribe to the Lord glory and strength”
(Psalm 29:1)
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----------------3 of 3 posts on the support for the Creator-King-------------
With these passages in mind, we have a deeper understanding of the name Elohim. The pagan mind ascribed a separate and distinct god for each of the powers in the world which it observed, and on whom it depended. The nations gazed upon the life-giving and perplexing energy emanating from the sun and the rain, and they worshiped the many gods who they believed controlled these forces. They craved an abundant harvest and boundless fertility, and they venerated each god who they believed governed each of these abodes. The ancients were mystified by the powers which sustained them and awestruck by the forces that terrified them, and venerated each with elaborate rituals and oftentimes gruesome rites in order to “appease the gods.”
The Torah conveys a radically different message for mankind. All the life-sustaining forces in the universe, all the power that man can behold, emanate from the One Master of the world, One Creator of the universe – the Lord of Hosts is His name. This grand message is contained in the name of God, Elohim. All the forces of the world emerged from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore, the God of Israel alone – Elohim – is worthy of our worship and devotion.
It is for this reason that the Torah employs the word Elohim almost exclusively as the name of God throughout the first two chapters of Genesis. In these opening passages of the Book of Genesis, the Almighty is creating all the powers and forces which stir and sustain the universe.
Therefore, the nation of Israel, to whom God revealed Himself at the foot of Mount Sinai, knew nothing about a plurality of persons in the godhead. No fact could be more firmly established once all of our sacred literature – both canonical and rabbinical – is used as our eternal guide. This matter is indisputable.
Best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year.
Sincerely yours,
Rabbi Tovia Singer
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...This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what is intended by the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of Bible sources from the Jewish scriptures to support its position that “God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”
Jewish Understanding of “Let Us” in Genesis 1:26
by Jason DeMarsMay 14, 2010
With these passages in mind, we have a deeper understanding of the name Elohim. The pagan mind ascribed a separate and distinct god for each of the powers in the world which it observed, and on whom it depended. The nations gazed upon the life-giving and perplexing energy emanating from the sun and the rain, and they worshiped the many gods who they believed controlled these forces. They craved an abundant harvest and boundless fertility, and they venerated each god who they believed governed each of these abodes. The ancients were mystified by the powers which sustained them and awestruck by the forces that terrified them, and venerated each with elaborate rituals and oftentimes gruesome rites in order to “appease the gods.”
The Torah conveys a radically different message for mankind. All the life-sustaining forces in the universe, all the power that man can behold, emanate from the One Master of the world, One Creator of the universe – the Lord of Hosts is His name. This grand message is contained in the name of God, Elohim. All the forces of the world emerged from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore, the God of Israel alone – Elohim – is worthy of our worship and devotion.
It is for this reason that the Torah employs the word Elohim almost exclusively as the name of God throughout the first two chapters of Genesis. In these opening passages of the Book of Genesis, the Almighty is creating all the powers and forces which stir and sustain the universe.
Therefore, the nation of Israel, to whom God revealed Himself at the foot of Mount Sinai, knew nothing about a plurality of persons in the godhead. No fact could be more firmly established once all of our sacred literature – both canonical and rabbinical – is used as our eternal guide. This matter is indisputable.
Best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year.
Sincerely yours,
Rabbi Tovia Singer
Did Someone Find the Doctrine of the Trinity In the Name of God? Why is God’s Name “Elohim” Plural? - Outreach Judaism
Question: Dear Rabbi Singer, First, let me say that what you are doing is a great service to Jews and the religious community at large. You are setting the record straight – one that has needed correction for almost 2,000 years! Thank you. Yesterday, a Christian business associate made a point...
outreachjudaism.org
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...This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what is intended by the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of Bible sources from the Jewish scriptures to support its position that “God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”
Jewish Understanding of “Let Us” in Genesis 1:26
by Jason DeMarsMay 14, 2010
Behold
Well-Known Member
He's talking to the "our".
That is the pre-incarnate Word, who became flesh ... 1 Timothy 3:16, Virgin born.
Find Him here.
John 1:10
1 Colossians 1:16
He is the Bread of Life who came down from heaven and said...>"I am from above and you are from below'
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Apparently pope francis THINKS GOD is talking to Him . but allow me a few parting words .
the god he does follow , AINT GOD . we better follow and learn Christ well is all i can say .
John 1:1-3 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
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