Who founded your church?

[FHII]

So now we are discussing Mary. My take on it is this... Catholics say they don't worship Mary. Fine. I don't like when people tell me what I worship (though some Catholics do it on this site quite a lot), so I am not about to say they do when they say they don't.

However, I see this, and it makes me wonder:

(From Roserycenter.org)

How to pray the Rosery:

1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
2. Say the “Our Father”
3. Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
4. Say the “Glory Be”
5. Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
6. Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
7. Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
8. Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
9. Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
10. Make the “Sign of the Cross”

Well.. I see one mention of "the Father" and one mention of Jesus (which is optional, and still connected to Mary), but 13 times "Hail Mary" is to be said. Furthermore, its repeated 20 times because there are 20 mysteries. Well, that's 20 times the Father is acknowledged, 20 times (which is optional) Jesus is acknowledged as long as long as you know Mary requested it, and a whopping 260 times "hail Mary" is said. There isn't even one "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father".

So at a ratio of 13:13 (optional):260.... Do Catholics really have a reason to be upset when someone wonders why some might suspect they worship Mary?

 

[BreadOfLife]

That i understand the New Testament, seems to be a problem you want to solve for me?
Good luck with that...
Also, Noah's Ark in the OK is not the Blood Atonement as found in the NT, and shame on you for pretending that it is...
The only "ark" that saves us, is the Cross and Jesus on it.
The "ark" that justifies, is the Blood that Purifies.
Water can't save you, (notice the dying Thief who BELIEVES and was saved with no water around...).....
Water Baptism does symbolize that you are born again......that is water baptism.
If a water cult teaches that water saves you, "born again by or of water", then don't believe that Lie.
And more importantly, dont let your family believe it.
Get away from it.
Leave it.

Why do yo keep repeating this stupid lie when I have corrected you several times now?

The Catic Church does NOT teach - nor has it ever taught that we are saved BY the water of Baptism.
We are saved AT Baptism, yes - but NOT by the water. How many times do I need to repeat this before you finally understand?

As for the Thief on the cross - I've explained this you you ad nauseam as well. He was an exception. God can and DOES make exceptions - but YOU should never base your doctrines on an exception. The normative way to be forgiven and to receive the Holy Spirit is by BAPTISM (Acts 2:38-39, Matt. 28:19, John 3:5, Acts 19:1-7, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6: 3-4, Col. 2:11-12, Tit. 3:4-8, 1 Pet. 3:21)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Listen,
Im making perfect sense, to anyone who can hear me.
You can't.
You have been taught to believe something and this is a spiritual darkness regarding your SIGHT.
I just told you that If Jesus is in Heaven, never having been to the Cross, then how would Water save you?
You can't answer this, all you can do is be rude, as that is how you try to hide the deceit, so you think.
And you are wrong about that, also.

It's an idiotic question because that's NOT what we Catholics believe - nor have we ever taught this.
As I schooled you in my last post - the washing of (Baptismal) Regeneration is ONLY possible BECAUSE of what Jesus did on the cross.

Baptism without His Sacrifice on the cross is called taking a bath . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That was not his glorified body, BOL, that was his ressurrected body, just like Lazarus, just like Dorcas, just like Eutychus, Jarius' daughter, widow's son from Nain, etc... When he ascended and sat on the throne, he was changed, just as we will be changed on his return. Learn your theology, ...or eschatology rather! Read the scriptures that I gave you, they will help your archaic understanding.

WRONG again, my Scripturally-bankrupt friend.

After His Resurrection, Jesus was in His GLORIFIED Body.
- He was able to change His apperance so that His closest friends wouldn't recognize Him (Mark 16:9-11, John 20:11-18, Luke 24:13-32).
- He was able to enter locked rooms without coming through the door (John 20:19-25).
- He vanished into thin air (Luke 24:31).

These are NOT the normal abilities of corrupt flesh.
These connote a GLORIFIED Body . . .

 

[DNB]

WRONG again, my Scripturally-bankrupt friend.

After His Resurrection, Jesus was in His GLORIFIED Body.
- He was able to change His apperance so that His closest friends wouldn't recognize Him (Mark 16:9-11, John 20:11-18, Luke 24:13-32).
- He was able to enter locked rooms without coming through the door (John 20:19-25).
- He vanished into thin air (Luke 24:31).

These are NOT the normal abilities of corrupt flesh.
These connote a GLORIFIED Body . . .

Peter walked on water, so did Christ, prior to any resurrection. Enoch was translated into heaven, as was Elijah (vanished into thin air).
Christ did not change his appearance, but Cleopas' mind was closed, as was Mary Magdalene's at the tomb.
But, quit your contradictions - if he ate fish, then he cannot walk through solid matter, both experiences cannot be produced by the same medium. In other words Christ adopted to the circumstance, but the circumstance does denote the body that he had. Again, the temporal does not inherit the eternal. Christ does not have flesh, and if he did, there is absolutely no efficacy or edification in eating from it.
Which part of cannibalism do you not understand????

 

[Truther]

You don't get it at ALL.
We will have GLORIFIED bodies like that of Christ.

1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

That's what the "Resurrection" is ALL about.

You can kiss those verses goodbye if you don't obey Acts 2:38.

 

[Truther]

Like I keep telling you - because you ignorantly isolate Acts 2:38 and divorce it fro ALL other verses regarding Baptism - you LOSE your persepctive.

Now - tell me WHY both Peter and Paul Baptuzed entire households (adults & children) based on the faith of the leaders of those households.
And TRY to respond with something remotely intelligent . . .

No, I am rubbing Acts 2:38 in your face until you can smell it, taste it and eventually see it.

The buck stops at whether you obeyed Acts 2:38 or not.

If you obeyed Acts 2:38 correctly, you may continue to read and apply the following portions of your Bible to your life.

If you cannot pass Acts 2:38 and you are stuck before it, then you are stuck in the O.T.

So, you can only go back to Matt 1 and read the gospels over and over again for the rest of your life until you obey Acts 2:38.

Think of it as a board game and you cannot pass go, but keep getting sent back to "start".

 

[Behold]

Why do yo keep repeating this stupid lie when I have corrected you several times now?
The Catic Church does NOT teach - nor has it ever taught that we are saved BY the water of Baptism.
We are saved AT Baptism, yes - but NOT by the water. How many times do I need to repeat this before you finally understand?
As for the Thief on the cross - I've explained this you you ad nauseam as well. He was an exception. God can and DOES make exceptions - but YOU should never base your doctrines on an exception. The normative way to be forgiven and to receive the Holy Spirit is by BAPTISM (Acts 2:38-39, Matt. 28:19, John 3:5, Acts 19:1-7, Acts 22:16, Rom. 6: 3-4, Col. 2:11-12, Tit. 3:4-8, 1 Pet. 3:21)

FYI, there is a "catholic" on this forum right now, that is talking to me, telling me that water saves.
that "baptismal regeneration" is salvation.
So, is this Catholic lying, or are you?

Now, notice this...
In the Acts of the Apostles....(not the Christians) but the APOSTLES.....its THEIR ACTS.....which is why the epistle is showing you the Apostles deeds....
Notice that everytime an Apostle water baptizes, or if you read of a water baptism, in ACTS ....it always follows....>"they BELIEVED".
They BELIEVED.
BELIEVED
BELIEVED= FIRST.
Every single time, in the ACTS of the APOSTLES.

That is """Justification by FAITH.""
That is ""Grace Through Faith.""
That is "Paul's Gospel".

Why is that?

Because "all that believe on Jesus shall be saved".
"SAVED" means born again..

'"" Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it <. IT.....= the BELIEVEING........ was COUNTED as RIGHTEOUSNESS"..
Not later.
But THEN.
This is why Abraham is the "Father of our FAITH".


DID YOU NOTICE that there is no water involved?
Take a good look.

 

[Behold]

It's an idiotic question because that's NOT what we Catholics believe - nor have we ever .

The Catholic Bible, created the water cult theology of "baptismal regeneration".
Its this verse that was made heretical... "born again of/by water".

So, if you say that the CC does not teach this, then you are denying the truth as found in the Catholic Bible that is taught by the Pope.

At least be honest.

 

[Behold]

So now we are discussing Mary. My take on it is this... Catholics say they don't worship Mary. Fine. I don't like when people tell me what I worship (though some Catholics do it on this site quite a lot), so I am not about to say they do when they say they don't.

However, I see this, and it makes me wonder:

(From Roserycenter.org)

How to pray the Rosery:

1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
2. Say the “Our Father”
3. Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
4. Say the “Glory Be”
5. Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
6. Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
7. Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
8. Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
9. Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
10. Make the “Sign of the Cross”

Well.. I see one mention of "the Father" and one mention of Jesus (which is optional, and still connected to Mary), but 13 times "Hail Mary" is to be said. Furthermore, its repeated 20 times because there are 20 mysteries. Well, that's 20 times the Father is acknowledged, 20 times (which is optional) Jesus is acknowledged as long as long as you know Mary requested it, and a whopping 260 times "hail Mary" is said. There isn't even one "hail Jesus" or "hail The Father".

So at a ratio of 13:13 (optional):260.... Do Catholics really have a reason to be upset when someone wonders why some might suspect they worship Mary?

-

 

[Marymog]

You' "suspect"?

You suspect that people who believe that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, who believe she is the Mediatrix, ..

= In Catholic Mariology, the title Mediatrix refers to the intercessory role of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mediator in the salvific redemption by her son Jesus Christ and that he bestows graces through her.<

You "suspect" that Catholics, who believe that Mary is helping Jesus save souls...who are kneeling before her statue.... you "suspect" they are not worshipping her..

Uh huh.
Right.

Yes, I suspect. Unless one goes up and asks them “are you worshiping that porcelain statue” then how could one know.

So tell me detective behold; Do you KNOW they are worshiping the statue? Please provide your evidence inspector Clouseau.

As far as Mary being the Queen of Heaven I can see where over 1,600 years ago Christians interpreted Revelations 12 as the woman with a crown on her head as that being Mary.

I don’t know the exact wording on the Mediatrix doctrine of The Church. Pretending you are right that Jesus bestows graces thru Mary to suggest that if Mary was to ask Jesus to do something he would do it. That seems pretty logical to me. God has answered my prayers many times. Why wouldn’t He answer her prayers?

Know Mary, Know Jesus. No Mary No Jesus, Uh huh, Right!!!

 

[Behold]

Yes, I suspect. Unless one goes up and asks them “are you worshiping that porcelain statue” then how could one know.

Let me ask you a simple question, Marymog.

Would Jesus be found kissing the feet or any other part of a statue?

Yet your "mouth of God on earth", is doing it.

So, my answer is, stop the pretending and the excuse making, and realize the deceived situation, and get away from the water & mary cult.
Thats the final answer.-
-

 

[Marymog]

Marymog,
The fly is not in their face, the fly is in the baptism salvation theory.

Let me show you something..
Its this.
In the Acts of the Apostles....(not the Christians) but the APOSTLES.....its THEIR ACTS.....which is why the epistle is showing you the Apostles deeds....
Notice that everytime an Apostle water baptizes, or if you read of a water baptism, in ACTS ....it always follows....>"they BELIEVED".
They BELIEVED.
BELIEVED
BELIEVED= FIRST.
Every single time, in the ACTS of the APOSTLES.

That is """Justification by FAITH.""
That is ""Grace Through Faith.""
That is "Paul's Gospel".

Why is that?

Because "all that believe on Jesus shall be saved".
"SAVED" means born again..

'"" Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it <. IT.....= the BELIEVEING........ was COUNTED as RIGHTEOUSNESS"..
Not later.
But THEN.
This is why Abraham is the "Father of our FAITH".

Look again,...
"All that call on the Name of the Lord, shall be SAVED"...

You "call", because you have BELIEVED.

Now look at your verse, Marymog..

""""And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37: And Philip said, = If thou BELIEVEST with all thine heart, =thou mayest....

See that?

He is saying..>If you BELIEVE in CHRIST, if you have this true FAITH, then SURE.......we can find the WATER.

The Eunuch has BELIEVED, so he is BORN AGAIN.....>He's SAVED..........so Philip agrees to the Water Baptism request.

So, do you see that BELIEVING is BEFORE THE WATER BAPTISM?

And that is EVERY SINGLE TIME, in the ACTS of the APOSTLES..
They BELIEVE First........born again.......then the water baptism FOLLOWS.
Every .... SINGLE.......>TIME.

Hi Behold,

If I have written in any post that one does not have to believe before they are baptized please reference that post. I will save you some time, you won’t find it so your entire diatribe was Unnecessary.

However, using (y)our argument that Belief came first water baptism came second can one cut out the water part and still be in compliance with Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles?


Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

and @Marymog

There only needs to be one witness who is doing the baptizing. Like Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch. There was no crowd of witnesses.

Hi Lady,

Scripture does not make it clear that a crowd was watching. However, I can also understand if this Eunuch had some servants and soldiers with him that they may have, against their own free will or because they were on duty, been present.

I agree: There only needs to be one witness. The one who is doing the baptizing!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I don't hate Catholics. Your doctrines on sacraments are scriptural. It is the addition of the holy traditions regarding Mary that has corrupted your denomination. Other than this huge misstep, your doctrines are not so false as some out of the Reformation (Rev. 3 Sardis). But that's another story. None of the epistles from any of the Apostles even mention Mary. That should give you pause. The Bible's New Testament is the foundation for all Church beliefs. No pope can alter those beliefs. But they have taught you that they can.

Have you read Revelation 2:18-29. It is a prophecy of the fourth church age depicting your church and the Orthodox church as you both have added what Jesus calls Jezebel to your belief system. He also calls this addition the "depths of Satan." If nothing I say can help you, you should take the words of Jesus seriously.

I don't care about the popes, but you should know the truth about the desposyni. But there are no more of them around. They were killed off. By guess who?

Thank you for your heartfelt response. I believe it is Mary who is portrayed as the woman with the crown on her head in Revelations. If you don’t think it is Mary, who is it?

I can’t find any reliable information on the Desposyni theory so I don’t know who killed them off. I suspect the Jews or Roman government who killed a lot of Christians.

Are you able to provide me with a reliable source that supports the Desposyni theory?

Willing to learn, Mary

 

[Marymog]

My entire point is that in scripture there is no example of anyone being baptized without witnesses. Thus baptism, in every example given in scripture, even with Christ Himself, was an act wherein the one being baptized was publicly testifying to his commitment to a new life in Christ. If you cannot see that, your claims to "Bible study Mary' fall flatter than road kill.

Ummm......well that is not what you said earlier sooooo based on your new statement about witnesses being present...I agree with you.

 

[Marymog]

From the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible...
Exodus 20:4-5
[4]Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
[5]Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

View attachment 13404

Ok....and your point is???? A statue of Mary is a graven image???

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Let me ask you a simple question, Marymog.

Would Jesus be found kissing the feet or any other part of a statue?

Yet your "mouth of God on earth", is doing it.

So, my answer is, stop the pretending and the excuse making, and realize the deceived situation, and get away from the water & mary cult.
Thats the final answer.-
-

Ok...I see where you are confused...You equate kissing something as a sign of worshiping the thing that is kissed!!

Fair enough...That’s my final answer.

 

[Taken]

Let me ask you a simple question, Marymog.

Would Jesus be found kissing the feet or any other part of a statue?

Yet your "mouth of God on earth", is doing it.

So, my answer is, stop the pretending and the excuse making, and realize the deceived situation, and get away from the water & mary cult.
Thats the final answer.-
-

Behold- Correct.

It's the Individual, the Individuals Heart that Confesses Belief IN the Lord God Almighty.

The Father, Son, Witness the Individuals True Heartful Confession...
The Holy Spirit is The Power that Saves the man's "soul" and Quickens with Gods Baptism the man's "spirit"...
BEFORE "any voluntary ceremonial Water sprinkling or emerging a man may "choose" to do with Human witnesses".

Human men Baptize with water...
God Baptizes with His Holy Spirit...

Only ONE Baptism; Gods Holy Baptism; is a man's Assurance of OF Salvation of his soul and Rebirth VIA Gods Seed.

Glory to God, Most High and Holy,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Ok...I see where you are confused...You equate kissing something as a sign of worshiping the thing that is kissed!!

Fair enough...That’s my final answer.

Greet your brother with a kiss.
Bow in worship to the Lord.

The Converted are not Scripturally Taught to bow before and kiss statutes, relics, trinkets, images...is the Point.

Glory to God,
Taken