When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[Truth7t7]

But I will speak plainly--just as it is written: The "falling away" is the fall--the fall of all mankind...which has been made manifest in the birth of all who are born since Adam, that "that man of sin", that man of flesh and blood, should be revealed. Yes--these happen first!

I Disagree with your claim "Falling Away" being representative of man from Adam to present

"Falling Away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is represented by the Greek word "Apostasia" which is the root word for the english "Apostasy" meaning "Defection From Truth"

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).

 

[Truth7t7]

By Jesus' own word, there is nothing greater. There is only one event in all the history of the world that meets that criteria.

Sorry you don't see it, but look for something more.

There is nothing more.

We Disagree, Matthew 24:15-27 clearly shows at the time of Daniel's Abomination, this "Starts" the time of trouble seen in "Great Tribulation", a far cry from a claim of the Lords death, burial, resurrection

The church on earth is instructed to flee Jerusalem/Judea, the Church is warned of false Christ's and prophets performing signs and wonders

Scott how can you state that which is seen below, is representative of the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus Christ

For "Then" shall be great tribulation, after Daniel's Abomination takes place

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:15-27KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Truth7t7]

"This generation", "future generation." --That is not even good English.

You really don't see the error in that??

No response to the claims seen below, in a complete diversion in distraction

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"This Generation" is referring to a ",Future" generation, that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and the Lords return "Future" unfulfilled

1.) What is near, even at the doors, "The Lords Return"

2.) What is the the day and hour no man knows, "The Lords Return"

Matthew 24:33-
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Truth7t7]

Indeed we are not close enough. But it is only because you do not accredit Christ with having suffered all. Only when you do that, will all truth be given to you.

Your claim the Lords death, burial, resurrection, fulfilled Matthew 24:21 in the "great tribulation" has been clearly discredited, and isnt even hinted at in the scripture as seen in Matthew Chapter 24

 

[CadyandZoe]

The complete chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the signs that will precede the Lords return in the clouds of heaven as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

I don't think all of Matthew 24 is in our future. Otherwise, Jesus doesn't answer the disciples questions, which seems unlikely.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is there a verse that says “when people die, we go “immediately to heaven” before a judgment?

Scripture clearly teaches when the righteous believers die they are in comfort, and will be in the Lords presence, Abraham's bosom seen below is the biblical teaching

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[ScottA]

I did nothing of the foolish sort. He spoke the words in Luke before He went up to heaven obviously.

I told you you had it out of order, and gave you the proper order...now you deny it, but finish with agreeing that order I told you was correct.

You are going to have to do better than that.

 

[ScottA]

Right, and that means that there is 3 and a half years time involved for the tribulation.

That is the translation and teachings of men. Not the truth.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Scripture clearly teaches when the righteous believers die they are in comfort, and will be in the Lords presence, Abraham's bosom seen below is the biblical teaching

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Yes but I didn’t ask about rest or comfort. I asked specifically where does it say on death we immediately go to heaven before judgment?

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't think all of Matthew 24 is in our future. Otherwise, Jesus doesn't answer the disciples questions, which seems unlikely.

I cant disagree, my statement was a generalization

The temple being destroyed not one stone upon another was symbolic of the Lords body in his death, burial, resurrection, that took place in the 1st century, other than that "Symbolic" fulfillment, Matthew 24 is 100% future

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[ScottA]

The Tribulation period involves world wide things. The AC, the plagues, etc etc. Again, you need some minute modicum of understanding of the bible to debate these things.

Indeed it does. But you do not understand the architecture...and project your shortcomings on me. How will you come to know all truth if you reject every revelation just as those who went before?

This is not a debate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes but I didn’t ask about rest or comfort. I asked specifically where does it say on death we immediately go to heaven before judgment?

It's my understanding "heaven" would be defined as being in the presence of the Lord

The heavens are his throne, and the earth is his footstool?

We cant put God in a box with female Angel's flying around, with harps and long hair?

The scripture provided clearly shows to be absent from the body is to be in the Lords presence, nothing more can be said in my opinion

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[ScottA]

The Tribulation is a timed event in the end of the world that has a plethora of specific events in a certain sequence. Revelation is a revealing Of Jesus. The things that were, and are and that will be. You conflate these in such an obtuse way that we need to ask what you are doing pretending to debate here?

Again...you speak of the teachings of men, but do not understand the architecture just as those who went before. You are doing exactly what those of Jesus' time did, not thinking a carpenter's son could be God with us, or expecting a Lyon instead of a Lamb. Is it not when and what you least expect...just as you were warned?

Your expressed expectations in these last posts are your Lyon version of what you imagine and believe...but I have told you of the Lamb version according to the true architecture of God...and you make the same mistake as Israel. Would you rather I only told you what your ears want to hear?

 

[Truth7t7]

That is the translation and teachings of men. Not the truth.

Gods words of truth clearly teach, the future human man (The Beast) will be given 42 months or 3.5 years

Revelation 13:5KJV
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[Truth7t7]

Again...you speak of the teachings of men, but do not understand the architecture just as those who went before. You are doing exactly what those of Jesus' time did, not thinking a carpenter's son could be God with us, or expecting a Lyon instead of a Lamb. Is it not when and what you least expect...just as you were warned?

Your expressed expectations in these last posts are your Lyon version of what you imagine and believe...but I have told you of the Lamb version according to the true architecture of God...and you make the same mistake as Israel. Would you rather I only told you what your ears want to hear?

It appears that the writing has elevated itself as the pinnacle of truth above all, and its void of scripture to support its claims?

 

[ScottA]

The synoptic word is took in Matthew, and destroyed in Luke. They are both quoting Jesus.

That only means you misunderstand. You nor I can use one scripture to contradict the other--they must agree, and that is what I have told you.

 

[No Pre-TB]

It's my understanding "heaven" would be defined as being in the presence of the Lord

The heavens are his throne, and the earth is his footstool?

We cant put God in a box with harps and female Angel's flying around with long hair?

The scripture provided clearly shows to be absent from the body is to be in the Lords presence, nothing more can be said in my opinion

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

But that scripture you provided doesn’t say death=immediately in heaven or another place. That scriptures context doesn’t even suggest that.

2Cor 5:1
We have a our fleshly body (corruptible) and a heavenly body (uncorrupted) once we are resurrected/raptured

verse 2: we want the new immortal body Christ will give us
Verse 4: while in this corruptible body, we await for the day we get a new body that is immortal. Oh death, where is thy sting…
Verse 6: while we are alive in a corrupted body, we do not have that new uncorrupted body
Verse 8: we would rather not be in a corrupted body and instead have an uncorrupted body thereby we would be with Christ
Verse 9: we strive that whether we are alive in our fleshly body or in our imperishable body, we may please him
Verse 10: because we must appear before the bema seat

Does the bema seat happen immediately upon death or at a specific time? 2 Tim 4:1 says 1 time. At his appearing/kingdom.

So when Paul said he’d rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord is what we all want. We all want to be with him. Wanting that is not the same as saying when we die we are immediately in heaven. And he clarified that when he says we must all appear before the judgment seat.

 

[Truth7t7]

But that scripture you provided doesn’t say death=immediately in heaven or another place. That scriptures context doesn’t even suggest that.

2Cor 5:1
We have a our fleshly body (corruptible) and a heavenly body (uncorrupted) once we are resurrected/raptured

verse 2: we want the new immortal body Christ will give us
Verse 4: while in this corruptible body, we await for the day we get a new body that is immortal. Oh death, where is thy sting…
Verse 6: while we are alive in a corrupted body, we do not have that new uncorrupted body
Verse 8: we would rather not be in a corrupted body and instead have an uncorrupted body thereby we would be with Christ
Verse 9: we strive that whether we are alive in our fleshly body or in our imperishable body, we may please him
Verse 10: because we must appear before the bema seat

Does the bema seat happen immediately upon death or at a specific time? 2 Tim 4:1 says 1 time. At his appearing/kingdom.

So when Paul said he’d rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord is what we all want. We all want to be with him. Wanting that is not the same as saying when we die we are immediately in heaven. And he clarified that when he says we must all appear before the judgment seat.

We Disagree, the scripture teaches "Absent From The Body" representing physical death, and at this time the believer is present with the Lord

No further response will be given, the horse is way dead

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We are being tried and purified. Sorry if you thought you made it.

I quoted Scriptures. Sorry you don't like them!

It IS for those seeing the signs JESUS mentioned to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their redemption draws near.

I don't think you understand the concept. We are not supposed to *time* when the eschatological Kingdom will happen. Jesus clearly denied that. We're not supposed to try to anticipate the times and the seasons, which are in the hands of God.

Rather, he said that the Kingdom had already drawn near in his own time, precisely because the Kingdom was near in his own presence. When things go from bad to worse we are to look to him in heaven, because it is his presence that makes the coming of his Kingdom near. We are to be encouraged when we look at various events, knowing that all these things are leading to his Coming.

Yes it is. The seals are wrath as is the Tribulation. It says so in case you missed it.

I didn't miss anything. The opening of the seals lead to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. It is the coming of Christ that brings eternal wrath to men. Punishments do precede his Coming in the present age, and presage the eternal wrath to be poured out at his Coming. The punishments on earth that precede his coming are but a segue to the coming eternal judgment to take place at Christ's coming.

Yes. It does. Since they died in the Tribulation. What, just because people die you think that means it could not be in the time of the wrath of God!?
Chapter and verse for that false claim you made up?

God's wrath is defined as God's punishment, which often means a transition to eternal death. When Christians go through periods of time in which the world is being punished, it does not mean that God is punishing Christians! We are not experiencing "God's Wrath" in these times. Suffering the persecution of Antichrist does not meant the saints are experiencing "God's Wrath!"

Do you need a verse for that? Try reading the book of Jeremiah. He went through the full wrath of God being poured out on disobedient Israel in the time of the Babylonian invasion. It is just as apparent in the book of Revelation that the saints persecuted by Antichrist are treated with honor and dignity--not as Pretribbers describe them, as having "missed the Rapture due to their lack of vigilance."

So when it says He comes with His saints you think that actually means that He doesn't?
Except that is made up whole of cloth and Jesus said nothing of the sort.
There is a multitude no man could number who are saved at the end of the Tribulation. Those are not a majority of Jews! There are no Christian nations. Seriously??

I never said any of this. The "Rapture" takes place in an instant. We rise within the course of a single second, obtain new bodies, and return with Christ to establish his Kingdom on earth. It's just that we need new glorified bodies to engage in this procedure together with Christ--we cannot do it in our old mortal bodies. We return with Christ because "in an instant" we are transformed to immortality so that we may participate in his Coming and in his Coming Kingdom. That's how we Return with him!

You have trouble understanding how this can all happen in a second? You want to engineer the process, and ensure there is time to go up and to come down? This is God we're talking about!

It doesn't take him any time at all to catch us up, give us new immortal bodies, and then appear with us on earth, together with his Kingdom.

Nothing about this is an explanation from an engineering, or a navigational, point of view. That is clearly missing the point. It is the purpose of these events that is being referred to--not *How* it will happen!

 

[ScottA]

I Disagree with your claim "Falling Away" being representative of man from Adam to present

"Falling Away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is represented by the Greek word "Apostasia" which is the root word for the english "Apostasy" meaning "Defection From Truth"

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).

You are apparently not hearing yourself.

The fall of all mankind beginning with Adam--is not a "Defection From Truth"--from God??

You explained what I have already told you, then tell me I am wrong, and that you disagree. You just defined what I said--but you do not believe it? That is the definition of unbelief.