When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[Triumph1300]

Hey there @aspen

Smacking you head...you are moving the thread an a different direction...

Get back in line....

But its such a nice cartoon. ;-)

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

"faith" as a noun, hmm

Faith is the substance of, it's not blind faith as that is worthless.

One may say that they have faith in a governments election promises and another may have more of a understanding of the subject at hand and point out the humbug ? does he have faith ? yes he may have faith but has to have reason for his faith that is not just a fantasy.

My brother said to me about a tradesman bloke 60yo that he is working with, my bro said what a fool this bloke is, no car, so bro has to take him from job to job and this idiot smokes dope and try's to sell it openly and has it on him, I said don't let him in your car, to hell with him, he is nothing but trouble and you will be the one busted and he will get off regardless, so you will have to draw the line.

Now that's about faith ? does my bro blindly have faith that old mate will not play him if the cops pull him up, what is old mate going to do ? you can be sure that that rat will palm it on to my brother in anyway that he could, well I am sure that trash like that should never be trusted at all and I would keep it in mind all the time. this dog hates the police and is a self obsessed glutton to himself not to mention has no idea about truth or reality, can't handle his own money but expects all to take heed to him, sadly if we all followed that type of idiots example, a Nation would be a total disaster and lead everyone to die.

Look a mate when asked does he have faith and he says no ! well that's a honest response. but what if one is just peddling a blind faith ? well that could be worse. that's the blind leading the blind.

I have faith is some people that I would trust them and some that I would not trust at all, now why is that ? I will let one go out and do a job with total faith that he can handle it on his own, but as to another, no way would I let him even be out their.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Reggie, I did not understand how that related to the topic, tho. Was it about if a person
has no faith they are not Christian, when they do they are? I'm reaching as to how this relates.

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith is the substance of, it's not blind faith as that is worthless.

One may say that they have faith in a governments election promises and another may have more of a understanding of the subject at hand and point out the humbug ? does he have faith ? yes he may have faith but has to have reason for his faith that is not just a fantasy.

My brother said to me about a tradesman bloke 60yo that he is working with, my bro said what a fool this bloke is, no car, so bro has to take him from job to job and this idiot smokes dope and try's to sell it openly and has it on him, I said don't let him in your car, to hell with him, he is nothing but trouble and you will be the one busted and he will get off regardless, so you will have to draw the line.

Now that's about faith ? does my bro blindly have faith that old mate will not play him if the cops pull him up, what is old mate going to do ? you can be sure that that rat will palm it on to my brother in anyway that he could, well I am sure that trash like that should never be trusted at all and I would keep it in mind all the time. this dog hates the police and is a self obsessed glutton to himself not to mention has no idea about truth or reality, can't handle his own money but expects all to take heed to him, sadly if we all followed that type of idiots example, a Nation would be a total disaster and lead everyone to die.

Look a mate when asked does he have faith and he says no ! well that's a honest response. but what if one is just peddling a blind faith ? well that could be worse. that's the blind leading the blind.

I have faith is some people that I would trust them and some that I would not trust at all, now why is that ? I will let one go out and do a job with total faith that he can handle it on his own, but as to another, no way would I let him even be out their.

those sound like real faith to me, RB :)
the bottom ones, not the goverment one lol
your faith in them manifests certain actions in you, that you cannot act toward the others that way, yeh? I think we read Paul's seen/unseen there and all that more or less goes right out the window?

 

[farouk]

Adult believers don't need Godparents.

I don't see the so called Godparent thing in Scripture...

 

[Pearl]

I don't see the so called Godparent thing in Scripture...

No it isn't. Only babies need Godparents because they can't consent for themselves. But hey we are off topic.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

those sound like real faith to me, RB :)
the bottom ones, not the goverment one lol
your faith in them manifests certain actions in you, that you cannot act toward the others that way, yeh? I think we read Paul's seen/unseen there and all that more or less goes right out the window?

Paul is correct as it does not have to be seen. as it's the Holy Spirit giving one light as to the subject.
Saul had blind faith but Paul did not have blind faith at all as he had the Holy Spirit.
All that Saul was doing was mans works and he was lost, until he became Paul.
Paul was faith personified. he should be an example to you of the fact.

 

[brakelite]

There were wars right afterwards? I am not an historian ...I love what I have learned over the years on forums!!

Ever wondered about the etymology of the word 'barbarian'? Barbarous and the like mean uncultured, uncouth, uncivilized etc. After Romam Empire fell, or disintegrated, in the 4th to the 5th centuries, Germanic tribes took over the former Roman territories. All of those tribes began as pagan entities but we converted, at least nominally to Christianity as they progressed through the new territories. Some of the conversions were genuine, some more political. But by the 6th century the lines were divided between those who accepted the Catholic Nicean Trinitarian concept, and those that accepted the teachings of Arius. Those later tribes were the Goths, the Heruli, and the Vandals. They were destroyed by the eastern Emperor Justinian who supported the popes of Rome, while the remaining seven who submitted to papal supremacy laid the foundations for modern Europe. The Goths were genuinely converted Christians, the entire nation accepting the gospel through the missionary Wulfilas. Though they rejected Nicea, and were labelled "barb-arians', they believed in the divinity of Christ, His Sonship to the Father, and other foundational tenets of the Christian faith. But through the encouragement of the Pope, Justinian destroyed them, for two main reasons. They ruled Rome, and no Pope was elected without their permission, and second, they didn't believe in the Trinity.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Hi Reggie, I did not understand how that related to the topic, tho. Was it about if a person
has no faith they are not Christian, when they do they are? I'm reaching as to how this relates.

I had faith in all around me about Jesus being the Christ from as young as I can remember and that's a good thing, but my faith could of been strangled by all the weeds, as is explained in the parable of the weeds.
Now I struggled with religion for years and yes I had faith and that is good as it is said that one can not deal with solid food, just like a baby can't.
So faith is good but you need solid food that comes from Jesus Christ himself who is the well spring.
One is only religious a follower in that religion as to your faith, now that's ok but the point is to be born again and that's when Jesus himself leads you because you do know him personally and I am not looking to any religious denomination for answers.

The Bible does point out, oh you of little faith and also points out of Faith that can move mountains.
So the point is that the hope is that your faith is that that can move mountains and the pointing out of, oh you of little faith is one of sorrow for one, because it's not enough to cut it.
So if we had a Nation of people who had the faith that can move mountains, now that's cooking and a people on fire for the Lord Jesus, what a awesome world that would be hey !
But what if we had only a lukewarm Nation of people ? well they could be easy deceived by Satan.

So when I try to bring the Lord into the lives of others I pray that they become born again of the Holy Spirit and not just religious, not to mention that I take that prayer very seriously.

 

[brakelite]

Brakelite you should read scripture instead of your anti-Catholic "history" books. ;)

Scripture talks about heresy or heretics and how The Church (or we) is to treat them: 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Matthew 18:17, Romans 16:17-18 are a few example's.

Bible study Mary

Positng those scriptures might support something, but didn't answer my post. I asked, what authority does the church have to punish heretics? I didn't ask about identifying them and distancing ourselves from those who were unrepentant d and unwilling to hear the truth. I am talking about the willingness of the medieval church to not only punish heretics, but put them to death, confiscate their property, and persecute their children. Where is the biblical justification for that?

 

[tabletalk]

You are talking a load of rubbish here.
If you read the post correctly you would have understood what this thread was about. What I was trying to convey ( and most people understood) ...any clown can just respond to any post with a bible scripture , that does not a discussion make.

What I asked for was not 'what or who a christian is '...but who has the right to tell someone else that they are not. (obviously you feel very qualified to do so.)

If we are being forthright here, as you seem to be...
I have read your posts in many threads and often wondered if you have ever had a real face to face encounter with the Lord.

But, that is not my call, God knows . Just as it is not your place to tell someone else that because they don't cross this T , or dot that 'I' their salvation experience is not valid. ( in your eyes)

Did you read post #11 by the way?
That is the clarification that I was after when I started this thread.

"What I asked for was not 'what or who a christian is '...but who has the right to tell someone else that they are not. (obviously you feel very qualified to do so.)"

You are correct; I missed the question you were asking.
I think Christians have the 'right' to tell someone that he/she is not a Christian (especially to someone who says they hate God, or doesn't claim to be a Christian). But, always to keep in mind that only God knows the heart. So, whether or not I call someone a Christian, or not a Christian, I do not know if they will be saved.
Also, the Elders of the church have the right to 'tell someone .. that they are not' a Christian (to deny membership). Many Christian Churches would deny membership to a person who rejects the triune nature of God.

You are correct:I haven't had 'a real face to face encounter with the Lord.' Not like Moses, for example.

You said:"Just as it is not your place to tell someone else that because they don't cross this T , or dot that 'I' their salvation experience is not valid. ( in your eyes)"
Like I said above, I can't determine a person's 'salvation experience'.

So, since I have not had 'a real face to face encounter with the Lord', would you call me a Christian? Would you say I am saved?

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul is correct as it does not have to be seen. as it's the Holy Spirit giving one light as to the subject.
Saul had blind faith but Paul did not have blind faith at all as he had the Holy Spirit.
All that Saul was doing was mans works and he was lost, until he became Paul.
Paul was faith personified. he should be an example to you of the fact.

i'm reminded of the reaction water has to the words "do it!" v the words "let's do it!" there, quite a profound difference actually, i guess, i dunno if i can find a snip or not, dont have the book with me. Anyway, the v makes a good bridge if it is read right i guess, as you say when we "understand" something more fully we dont really "see" anything different at all, yet we see things completely differently, too.

The v is usually used a diifferent way though i guess, i usually ask the other poster in situations like this if they know where Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" :)

 

[Miss Hepburn]

@brakelite---Thank you, that was some information, luvit. :)
@tabletalk---Hi, I know this was directed to someone else - I have not known many that have had face to face encounters with the Lord...(shhh, I have and now will be challenged as usual, lol, fun for another thread!).
Belief and/or faith seem to be the basis of Christianity 'to me'...and so did the Nicene Council.. (Another thread topic...'The diff between faith and belief'!)

In other words, you can still be stealing pens from work, telling lies to your parents,
cheating on your taxes, holding back on that $1 to the homeless man ...and still be a Christian ...No?
So direct contact with the Lord is not necessary....
(Rem to all here...this thread isn't about 'Being saved' or anything else, being Born again, doing good works, true Christians or bad Christians, etc.,
just about what makes it ok to be called a Christian or not, paraphrase).
And you sure are correct...God knows the heart...actually who cares what anyone else thinks!

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul is correct as it does not have to be seen. as it's the Holy Spirit giving one light as to the subject.
Saul had blind faith but Paul did not have blind faith at all as he had the Holy Spirit.
All that Saul was doing was mans works and he was lost, until he became Paul.
Paul was faith personified. he should be an example to you of the fact.

ya, cant find the quote, anyway the "water" thing up there might possibly lead you to the Naive dialectic, strangely enough, if you contemplate the diff in telling someone "do it!" as opposed to "let's do it!"

imo its mostly a commentary about how we assimilate things we have "seen" that are unseen; we unfortunately then like cement this new understanding in our brains as now being "truth," iow when you say "Paul is correct" you indicate that you fully understand Paul now, yes? Which you might, dont get me wrong, but you also might not, yeh? Has any room been left for an even better understanding, iow?

but your reply to "where does Paul say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" would tell us more i guess. Paul is hard to read, and most ppl read him to their destruction, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I had faith in all around me about Jesus being the Christ from as young as I can remember and that's a good thing

ah, well, so you say, but i was kind of fishing around a minute ago for an example just like this tbh. Bc see we get "Jesus = Savior" pounded into us real early, right, that comes with the "God, please forgive me" shtick, but see we dont get any of the "I said 'you are elohim' " to like balance that any, right

So then when you even hear "Meet John Doe" it cannot be heard, iow all the meaning and impact of "Jesus of Nazareth" is removed, even with the can anything good come from Nazareth? hint.

And see we--as in all of us, everyone--now know that Nazareth was not even inhabited in 1ad, as it was before and even afterward. I say "know" when i mean there is no certainty of course, but our anthropology is developed enough now to be able to say with reasonable certainty that at the very least locating a rabbi in Nazareth in the first century would have been understood quite differently by them than by us, "can anything good come from Nazareth?"

which no one really even knows for sure where the term "Nazareth," which comes to us from the Greek, even originated i guess. Point being that really see you say you had "faith in all around you about Jesus being the Christ" but that is a belief wadr, and no faith is required at all to hold a belief, number one, and two we have been given an illustration of Jesus that just wont stand up to any close scrutiny at all, and the movie "Meet John Doe" 's central point is dismissed out of hand?

and, if we are prepared to hear it, all of our "faith" then becomes invested in Jesus as Apollos coming to take us away, or bring us, literally, to some other place, either heaven--no one has ever gone up to heaven; (never mentioned in the same paragraph as Enoch, of course, so we can pretend that Enoch went up to heaven)--or the New Jerusalem, only the literal one, the Zionist one, right, and really no "believer" is quite sure which, but whichever one they settle one will be an absolute truth to them, and danged if you can tell anybody that neither one is going to manifest like they have imagined.

i mean just try and reveal the foundations in "What will (future tense, notice right off) the New Jerusalem be made out of" is i think the thread title here, at CB? and see what kind of response you get.
Jasper better be the literal semi-precious stone and i guess it better be polished, too, lol, see, no one wants to hear
Meaning
Jasper, Guiding Fire At The Edge
Etymology
From the verb שפה (shapa), to sweep, shave bare or establish a border by means of beacon fires.
Related names
• Via שפה (shapa): Saph, Shapham, Shepham, Shephi, Shephupham, Shephuphan, Shuppim, Siphmoth, Sippai, Suph, Suphah, Yam-sup

 

[bbyrd009]

Not like Moses, for example.

who also never did right :)

 

[Helen]

You said:"Just as it is not your place to tell someone else that because they don't cross this T , or dot that 'I' their salvation experience is not valid. ( in your eyes)"
Like I said above, I can't determine a person's 'salvation experience'.

So, since I have not had 'a real face to face encounter with the Lord', would you call me a Christian? Would you say I am saved?

Good, nice to agree. :)

Earlier in this thread I too said...we cannot tell what is in a persons heart.
I would , and have never , told anyone that they are not a believer.
( unless they were asking me how to come into a living relationship with the Lord...) only then do I talk to them about it, and pray with them 'into the kingdom'.

 

[Pearl]

( unless they were asking me how to come into a living relationship with the Lord...) only then do I talk to them about it, and pray with them 'into the kingdom'.

Sometimes you can tell if somebody is or isn't a Christian even when they talk about going to church.

I remember one such lady who had been on her way to town on a Sunday and saw lots of people going into our church building so followed them thinking it was a car-boot sale.

She was surprised but stayed for the meeting and then was invited with the rest of the church to the pastor's home for a barbecue in the afternoon. We found ourselves chatting and she quite latched on to me and we arranged to meet up in town for a coffee during the week.

She told me how she had been going to a CofE church until it had shut down and that she missed it. Then she asked me to explain what had been meant by somebody she'd spoken to on Sunday, about being born again.

I told her how I had always thought I was a Christian because I'd gone to church and that I had eventually discovered there was more to it. And I gave her a copy of the booklet I'd been given. She did come to Christ and I had the wonderful experience of baptising her a while later.

 

[Helen]

Sometimes you can tell if somebody is or isn't a Christian even when they talk about going to church.

I remember one such lady who had been on her way to town on a Sunday and saw lots of people going into our church building so followed them thinking it was a car-boot sale.

She was surprised but stayed for the meeting and then was invited with the rest of the church to the pastor's home for a barbecue in the afternoon. We found ourselves chatting and she quite latched on to me and we arranged to meet up in town for a coffee during the week.

She told me how she had been going to a CofE church until it had shut down and that she missed it. Then she asked me to explain what had been meant by somebody she'd spoken to on Sunday, about being born again.

I told her how I had always thought I was a Christian because I'd gone to church and that I had eventually discovered there was more to it. And I gave her a copy of the booklet I'd been given. She did come to Christ and I had the wonderful experience of baptising her a while later.

Amen! Great post :)

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

ah, well, so you say, but i was kind of fishing around a minute ago for an example just like this tbh. Bc see we get "Jesus = Savior" pounded into us real early, right, that comes with the "God, please forgive me" shtick, but see we dont get any of the "I said 'you are elohim' " to like balance that any, right

So then when you even hear "Meet John Doe" it cannot be heard, iow all the meaning and impact of "Jesus of Nazareth" is removed, even with the can anything good come from Nazareth? hint.

And see we--as in all of us, everyone--now know that Nazareth was not even inhabited in 1ad, as it was before and even afterward. I say "know" when i mean there is no certainty of course, but our anthropology is developed enough now to be able to say with reasonable certainty that at the very least locating a rabbi in Nazareth in the first century would have been understood quite differently by them than by us, "can anything good come from Nazareth?"

which no one really even knows for sure where the term "Nazareth," which comes to us from the Greek, even originated i guess. Point being that really see you say you had "faith in all around you about Jesus being the Christ" but that is a belief wadr, and no faith is required at all to hold a belief, number one, and two we have been given an illustration of Jesus that just wont stand up to any close scrutiny at all, and the movie "Meet John Doe" 's central point is dismissed out of hand?

and, if we are prepared to hear it, all of our "faith" then becomes invested in Jesus as Apollos coming to take us away, or bring us, literally, to some other place, either heaven--no one has ever gone up to heaven; (never mentioned in the same paragraph as Enoch, of course, so we can pretend that Enoch went up to heaven)--or the New Jerusalem, only the literal one, the Zionist one, right, and really no "believer" is quite sure which, but whichever one they settle one will be an absolute truth to them, and danged if you can tell anybody that neither one is going to manifest like they have imagined.

i mean just try and reveal the foundations in "What will (future tense, notice right off) the New Jerusalem be made out of" is i think the thread title here, at CB? and see what kind of response you get.
Jasper better be the literal semi-precious stone and i guess it better be polished, too, lol, see, no one wants to hear
Meaning
Jasper, Guiding Fire At The Edge
Etymology
From the verb שפה (shapa), to sweep, shave bare or establish a border by means of beacon fires.
Related names
• Via שפה (shapa): Saph, Shapham, Shepham, Shephi, Shephupham, Shephuphan, Shuppim, Siphmoth, Sippai, Suph, Suphah, Yam-sup

The Jesus thing was never pounded into me, my mum and dad never went to Church when I was a child.

Faith has to start from somewhere you know, we do have faith that our mum and dad have our well being at hand, are they going to feed me and look after me as a child ? yes I had faith that they would because they loved their children, so yes that's faith. and I looked around at most people back them days and they all supported Christianity and if I came across one that did not they were criminal types that no one would trust at all as they were always dogs that only looked out for number one, themselves and had children that they did not truly care for did not surprise me at all, seen that time and time again over the years.

Sure people can only look at the subject from where they are at.