What was the date of the Crucifixion?

[jeffweeder]

70th week not complete.

Progress at long last. So now you at least believe the 70th week has already started and we have complete atonement.?

 

[The Light]

It doesn't work light.
70 weeks are decreed for the death to occur for the complete redemption not 69.

Oh no. 70 weeks are determined for the people of Daniel. Only 69 weeks so far as Messiah was cut off. After the fulness of the Gentile comes in, pre 70th week rapture, God will regraft His chosen.

 

[jeffweeder]

Oh no. 70 weeks are determined for the people of Daniel. Only 69 weeks so far as Messiah was cut off. After the fulness of the Gentile comes in, pre 70th week rapture, God will regraft His chosen.

The fullness of the Gentiles can only come in if we have the Gospel of redemption to preach. 70 weeks for redemption (shed blood - death occurs in 70th week.)


15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[The Light]

Progress at long last. So now you at least believe the 70th week has already started and we have complete atonement.?

Yeah, a few days passed before the Messiah was cut off, but that's it.

 

[The Light]

The fullness of the Gentiles can only come in if we have the Gospel of redemption to preach. 70 weeks for redemption (shed blood - death occurs in 70th week.)


15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Those 70 weeks are determined on the people of Daniel. God is coming for His Chosen and the 144,000 are the first fruits of the coming harvest.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yeah, a few days passed before the Messiah was cut off, but that's it.

Took him longer than that to accomplish eternal redemption in Judea, Galilee. Samaria and say all He had to say.
Why are you reluctant to eat into a little more of the 70th week?

 

[jeffweeder]

Those 70 weeks are determined on the people of Daniel.

Exactly, which is why they are over. Gentiles are now able to hear about the eternal redemption through the death of the Messiah.

 

[Phoneman777]

Could you please post the scripture that shows the exact decree that you are referring to?

Ezra 7, "in the 7th year reign of Artaxerxes". This has been proven beyond the shadow of doubt by extraBiblical archaeology to be 457 B.C., and is why older Bibles often have that date in the margins.

Jewish.

You're basing your rejection of a 31 A.D. crucifixion year on extremely flimsy point, and on the number one enemy of Christ, the Jews, which have gone out of their way to conceal the 70 Weeks as pointing to Jesus, even so far as to place the "Rabbinical Curse" on anyone who attempts to find Messiah in this prophecy.

The U.S. Naval observatory confirms what some Jews admit: that it sometimes takes up to 3 or 5 days to confirm the "new moon" and thus find when the new month commences.

The decrees of Cyrus or Darius are roads leading to nowhere, while the Artaxerxes' decree in his 7th year reign (457 B.C.) corroborates with other Biblical criteria, like Jesus' baptism in "the 15th year reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pilate as governor, and Herod as the techarch, of which the Syro-Macedonian calendar finds only one single year where these reigned simultaneously: 27 A.D.

 

[The Light]

Ezra 7, "in the 7th year reign of Artaxerxes". This has been proven beyond the shadow of doubt by extraBiblical archaeology to be 457 B.C., and is why older Bibles often have that date in the margins.

I'm not sure what you are looking at but here is the verse in Daniel 9

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Here is the decree in Ezra 7. Can you kindly point out the verses that show a decree to rebuild Jerusalem? I don't see any. I see some judges and magistrates. I see the house of God being beautified. I don't see anything having to do with the city of Jerusalem being rebuilt. You have the wrong decree unless you can point out what I am missing.

Ezra 7
21 And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,

22 Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.

23 Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?

24 Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.

25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

27 Blessed be the Lord God of our fathers, which hath put such a thing as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem:

28 And hath extended mercy unto me before the king, and his counsellors, and before all the king's mighty princes. And I was strengthened as the hand of the Lord my God was upon me, and I gathered together out of Israel chief men to go up with me.

You're basing your rejection of a 31 A.D. crucifixion year on extremely flimsy point,

Flimsy point???????? The point is Rock of Gibraltar solid. It could not be any more solid. AD 31 cannot be the year Jesus was crucified as Jesus died on a Friday, on the preparation day of the Passover. In AD 31 Passover is on a Monday. Cut and dried FACT.

and on the number one enemy of Christ, the Jews, which have gone out of their way to conceal the 70 Weeks as pointing to Jesus, even so far as to place the "Rabbinical Curse" on anyone who attempts to find Messiah in this prophecy.

What the Jews think about this prophecy is irrelevant. We have the information needed regardless of the Jew.

The U.S. Naval observatory confirms what some Jews admit: that it sometimes takes up to 3 or 5 days to confirm the "new moon" and thus find when the new month commences.

Again, irrelevant. We know that the date of preparation of the Passover falls on the 14th of Nissan. The 14th of Nisan falls on Monday in 31 AD not a Friday as required. Cut and dried FACT. 31 AD is not a viable year.

The decrees of Cyrus or Darius are roads leading to nowhere, while the Artaxerxes' decree in his 7th year reign (457 B.C.)

I have reviewed the decree several times and I see nothing that says the decree in 457 BC is a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The decree in 444 BC is the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

corroborates with other Biblical criteria, like Jesus' baptism in "the 15th year reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pilate as governor, and Herod as the techarch, of which the Syro-Macedonian calendar finds only one single year where these reigned simultaneously: 27 A.D.

The 15th year of Tiberius is 29 AD not 27 AD. Just because Tiberius had a co-regency in 12 AD does mean that was the 1st year of Tiberius. AD 12 would be the 39th year of Caesar Augustus, not the 1st year of Tiberius. Secondly, 31 AD does not fulfill the lunar requirements only 30 AD AND 33 AD are viable dates. And we know that neither 31 AD nor 30 AD have a day of preparation of Passover on Friday. That leaves 33 AD as the year Christ died.

 

[The Light]

Took him longer than that to accomplish eternal redemption in Judea, Galilee. Samaria and say all He had to say.
Why are you reluctant to eat into a little more of the 70th week?

I think it is important to deal with the facts and the truth. Messiah is cut off just after the 69th week when Jesus enters Jerusalem as Messiah at the end of March in 33 AD.

 

[jeffweeder]

I think it is important to deal with the facts and the truth.

Good to hear. Why not start today.:cool:

 

[The Light]

Good to hear. Why not start today.:cool:

Ok. I think it would be wise to check your lamp for oil.

 

[covenantee]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined...

The prophecy begins with that declaration for a very specific reason: It is an unassailable and indisputable statement which identifies the standard and benchmark to which the result of any analyses and calculations relating to the 70 weeks must conform.

Thus in this instance, the analyses and calculations regarding the date of the crucifixion must ultimately arrive at a result which conforms to the declaration.

The analyses and calculations which arrive at the result of the crucifixion being in 30 AD conform to the declaration.

The analyses and calculations which arrive at the result of the crucifixion being in 33 AD or any other date do not conform to the declaration.

The former result is thus valid.

The latter result is thus invalid.

A simple but unfailing test.

 

[The Light]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined...

The prophecy begins with that declaration for a very specific reason: It is an unassailable and indisputable statement which identifies the standard and benchmark to which the result of any analyses and calculations relating to the 70 weeks must conform.

Exactly. And Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks.

Thus in this instance, the analyses and calculations regarding the date of the crucifixion must ultimately arrive at a result which conforms to the declaration.

The analyses and calculations which arrive at the result of the crucifixion being in 30 AD conform to the declaration.

LOL. Yeah I guess you could arrive at 30 AD if you start by using the wrong decree, and then change the date of the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, and then move the Passover from the 14th of Nisan to the 15th of Nisan. We might have to fudge a few more things, but I think if we disregard enough facts, we can arrive at 30 AD if our head is deep enough in the sand.

The analyses and calculations which arrive at the result of the crucifixion being in 33 AD or any other date do not conform to the declaration.

I think it would be unwise to disregard the truth of the facts. You might want to check your lamp for oil.

The former result is thus valid.

The latter result is thus invalid.

A simple but unfailing test.

If you want to believe that, in spite of the evidence presented, that would be an unwise choice. However, I cannot help the blind see. I can only present the facts. You see what you want to see.

 

[covenantee]

Exactly. And Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks.


LOL. Yeah I guess you could arrive at 30 AD if you start by using the wrong decree, and then change the date of the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, and then move the Passover from the 14th of Nisan to the 15th of Nisan. We might have to fudge a few more things, but I think if we disregard enough facts, we can arrive at 30 AD if our head is deep enough in the sand.
I think it would be unwise to disregard the truth of the facts. You might want to check your lamp for oil.

If you want to believe that, in spite of the evidence presented, that would be an unwise choice. However, I cannot help the blind see. I can only present the facts. You see what you want to see.

"Seventy weeks are determined" is the ultimate fact and evidence.

Nothing can overrule it.

 

[The Light]

"Seventy weeks are determined" is the ultimate fact and evidence.

Nothing can overrule it.

Exactly. 69 weeks have occurred. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, and there are a total of 70 weeks to be determined upon the people of Daniel. Your ignorance to the truth is not an excuse for denying the facts presented.

 

[covenantee]

Exactly. 69 weeks have occurred. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, and there are a total of 70 weeks to be determined upon the people of Daniel. Your ignorance to the truth is not an excuse for denying the facts presented.

So why is your 70th week undetermined?

 

[The Light]

So why is your 70th week undetermined?

That's a dandy spit wad you got there. Hardly appropriate in a howitzer fight though.

 

[jeffweeder]

Exactly. 69 weeks have occurred. Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, and there are a total of 70 weeks to be determined upon the people of Daniel. Your ignorance to the truth is not an excuse for denying the facts presented.

Dear Brother Light, you are missing one or two important facts.

Yes, Messiah was cut off sometime AFTER the 69th week.

It would be helpful to know when he actually arrived and what the Prophet said about the manner of his arrival and how that forerunner could recognize the Messiah when he came so he could declare it to Israel.

Jn 1
23 He said, “I am the voice of one shouting in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize [only] in water, but among you there stands One whom you do not recognize and of whom you know nothing. 27 It is He [the preeminent One] who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie [even as His slave].” 28 These things occurred in Bethany across the Jordan [at the Jordan River crossing], where John was baptizing.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I and has priority over me, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah]; but I came baptizing in water so that He would be [publicly] revealed to Israel.”

32 John gave [further] evidence [testifying officially for the record, with validity and relevance], saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah], but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this One is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

34 I myself have [actually] seen [that happen], and my testimony is that this is the Son of God!”



So, Jesus is declared to be Messiah at his baptism and then went on to start his ministry.
In the 70-week context when did he arrive...,

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;



Messiah arrives after 69 weeks to start and accomplish his ministry of Redemption fulfilling the 70 weeks.



24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[covenantee]

That's a dandy spit wad you got there. Hardly appropriate in a howitzer fight though.

Thanks for the guffaw.

I'll use the spit wad of truth. You use the howitzer of fallacy.

We'll see who prevails.