What was the date of the Crucifixion?

[ewq1938]

A diadem is a crown of royalty. A stephanos is awarded a lesser person by or on behalf of someone wearing a diadem.

I have already proven that stephanos can be a royal crown.

 

[ewq1938]

that's why the two witnesses are only killed by the beast when they finish their testimony, three and a half days before the resurrection.

He kills the two prophets not the two witnesses. The two prophets are one of the two witnesses. The other are two churches.

The "arrows" of the bow that are not mentioned in the text (but that you insist on mentioning in your text), are spiritual, not carnal.

Everyone already understands that.

To assign it to the antichrist is really a nasty error.

No, the "nasty" error is to claim Jesus uses a bow to conquer when scripture says he has a sword. The enemy uses symbolic arrows.

 

[covenantee]

No he wasn't. You are. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. I know you are unable to understand the facts.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:.......

Scripture says "Seventy weeks are determined".

Dispen says "Sixty-nine weeks are determined, but one isn't".

I believe Scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thanks for the lunar phases. Yes, full moon was about 9.30 pm, Thursday, 6th April. Then Jesus was arrested at midnight and nailed to the cross at 9.00 am, Friday, 7th April.

What is sometimes overlooked is how the paschal meal as well as the crucifixion was on Passover because the Hebrew day was from evening to evening - that is Thur/Fri, 15th Nisan.

Yeap.
So no questions?

 

[The Light]

One thing we know for sure, Christ was not crucified on the day He ate the His Last Supper. But the Jews would have normally been eating the Passover meal on the day Christ was crucified, that would be Friday before dusk.

Exactly.

The Jewish Passover which lasts around 7 days, that year occurred on Saturday April 8th 30 AD, and started at dusk (As the Full Moon rose) on April 7th. The Jewish Sabbath and the beginning of Passover occurring on the same day, that year. Computerized astronomical calculations (NASA) shows a full Moon on the evening of April 7th when the Passover began. So the Passover for that year occurred on the Jewish Sabbath...Saturday.

So, you have Passover occurring on Saturday April 8, AD 30. Christian Gedge wants Passover to be on Thursday April 6, AD 30, the 15th of Nissan. But he doesn't appear to follow Biblical facts.

Both of you are incorrect. Passover falls on the 14th of Nisan, according to the Word.

Leviticus 23
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

In AD 30 Passover falls on Wednesday. This is fact. Therefore, it is impossible for Christ to have died in AD 30 as Christ died on Friday just as you said, on the preparation day of the Passover.

John 19
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

Why April 7th 30 AD?

There is no reason why Christ died in AD 30. It's impossible. Christ died on a Friday, on the preparation day of the Passover. Passover falls on a Wednesday in AD 30, so if you are looking for when Christ died, the only date that fits the criteria, including the lunar criteria, would be April 3, AD 33, Friday, the preparation day of the Passover on the 14th of Nisan. No other date works. FACT.

The death of Herod is well documented, so is the date of his successors. So in order to include the story of the Herod, the Magi, the Star, and death of the innocences, Christ's birth has to happen before Herod's death. March 12th 4 BC. Now if you go to add this up from Christ's birth to the day of his Crucifixion, keep in mind that you lose a year between 1 BC and 1 AD. No year zero, so one year passes between April 1 BC and April 1 AD. So in 30 AD Christ would have been 33 years old, give or take a few months.

We can consider April 3rd 33 AD, but Christ would be 36 years old and since it was said that Christ started Him ministry when He was 30 years old, that would make His ministry 6 years long. So odds are, it is 30 AD.

The date of Herod the Greats death is not as cut and dried as you think. I see that date being challenged. And you know it has to be wrong because Jesus did not die in AD 30 because Passover falls on Wednesday in AD 30 not on Friday. So AD 30 is out for the year of Christs death. This is fact.

We also have Luke 3 telling us that John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius.

Luke 3
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

The 15th year of Tiberius is 29 AD as Caesar Agustus died in August AD 14.

This would mean Christs ministry could not have begun before that so there is no way that Jesus could minister for 3.5 years and then die in AD 30. But AD 33 fits perfectly.

 

[The Light]

Scripture says "Seventy weeks are determined".

Dispen says "Sixty-nine weeks are determined, but one isn't".

I believe Scripture.

Well, go ahead and walk in blindness, as no one can help you see. If you reject the truth and follow the blind that tickle your ears, so be it. However, the Word says Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. That's a fact.

But Scriptural facts don't seem to matter to many.

 

[Grailhunter]

Exactly.


So, you have Passover occurring on Saturday April 8, AD 30. Christian Gedge wants Passover to be on Thursday April 6, AD 30, the 15th of Nissan. But he doesn't appear to follow Biblical facts.

Both of you are incorrect. Passover falls on the 14th of Nisan, according to the Word.

Leviticus 23
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

In AD 30 Passover falls on Wednesday. This is fact. Therefore, it is impossible for Christ to have died in AD 30 as Christ died on Friday just as you said, on the preparation day of the Passover.

John 19
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.



There is no reason why Christ died in AD 30. It's impossible. Christ died on a Friday, on the preparation day of the Passover. Passover falls on a Wednesday in AD 30, so if you are looking for when Christ died, the only date that fits the criteria, including the lunar criteria, would be April 3, AD 33, Friday, the preparation day of the Passover on the 14th of Nisan. No other date works. FACT.




The date of Herod the Greats death is not as cut and dried as you think. I see that date being challenged. And you know it has to be wrong because Jesus did not die in AD 30 because Passover falls on Wednesday in AD 30 not on Friday. So AD 30 is out for the year of Christs death. This is fact.

We also have Luke 3 telling us that John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius.

Luke 3
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

The 15th year of Tiberius is 29 AD as Caesar Agustus died in August AD 14.

This would mean Christs ministry could not have begun before that so there is no way that Jesus could minister for 3.5 years and then die in AD 30. But AD 33 fits perfectly.

You can make it up as you go.....I don't care.

 

[covenantee]

Well, go ahead and walk in blindness, as no one can help you see. If you reject the truth and follow the blind that tickle your ears, so be it. However, the Word says Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. That's a fact.

But Scriptural facts don't seem to matter to many.

The Word also says "Seventy weeks are determined". That's a fact.

I believe the Word.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for the lunar phases. Yes, full moon was about 9.30 pm, Thursday, 6th April. Then Jesus was arrested at midnight and nailed to the cross at 9.00 am, Friday, 7th April.

What is sometimes overlooked is how the paschal meal as well as the crucifixion was on Passover because the Hebrew day was from evening to evening - that is Thur/Fri, 15th Nisan.

Many want to have Jesus dying at the same time as the lamb that was slaughtered at twilight, because this has been taught in many churches for a long time.

But what is also overlooked is the fact that Jesus did not take the flesh of the paschal lamb and share pieces with His disciples saying it represents His body - He took the unleavened bread.

The paschal lamb represented the fact that the Israelites had been saved from the death of the firstborn by the blood of the lamb.

Jesus is the firstborn of God. He was sacrificed on the first Day of Unleavened Bread - still the Passover, as you point out.

 

[Zao is life]

I have already proven that stephanos can be a royal crown.

No, you only proved that it was a crown bestowed by someone with royal rank. You read what you read in such a way as to interpret it in the light of what you want it to be, thus misreading it.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yeap. So no questions?

Mostly no questions because I agree with most of your link. Uh, maybe one clarification. You say:

One thing we know for sure, Christ was not crucified on the day He ate the His Last Supper. But the Jews would have normally been eating the Passover meal on the day Christ was crucified, that would be Friday before dusk.

So, when do you say the the Jews kill and eat the Passover lamb?

 

[Zao is life]

He kills the two prophets not the two witnesses. The two prophets are one of the two witnesses. The other are two churches.

Everyone already understands that.

No, the "nasty" error is to claim Jesus uses a bow to conquer when scripture says he has a sword. The enemy uses symbolic arrows.

The error is to fail to understand that John was seeing visions that represent things. The "arrows" of the Word of God which the text does not have (but you have in your text) would be metaphorically referred to as the sword of the Word elsewhere. The Word of God uses different metaphor for the same things often.

But there are no arrows mentioned. Only the color of the horse, the bow, and the type of crown its rider wears is mentioned. And both the color of the horse and the crown tell you what it represents - it's the opposite of the red horse that follows it.

@ewq1938 A stéphanos is best understood as a crown of victory, which is an honor bestowed upon people or a person by someone with the authority to bestow it:

James 1:12
"Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown [stéphanos] of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him."

The crowns on the heads of all the following entities mentioned in the Revelation, are stéphanos:-

Revelation 12:1 (crown of 12 stars on the woman's head);
Revelation 2:10 & 3:11 (the crowns of the saints);
Revelation 4:4 & 10 (the crowns of the 24 elders).

The crowns on the heads of the dragon in Revelation 12:3 and the ten kings in Revelation 13:1 are diádēma.

JESUS IS SEEN WEARING BOTH TYPES OF CROWN

* Revelation 14:14 (Christ). In Revelation 14:14 Jesus is crowned with a stéphanos (a crown of victory and honor). In this passage His appearance is in the form of the Son of man (who, as we know, has been given a name above all names).

* In contrast to the Revelation 14:14, in Revelation 19:19 Christ is crowned with MANY diádēma. In this passage He is returning as King of (all) kings and Lord of (all) Lords (Revelation 19:16).

* The rider of the white horse seen in the first seal is given a stéphanos.

The locusts of the fifth trumpet that come out of the bottomless pit are also wearing something that has the appearance of stéphanos crowns, but though they look like the real thing, they are not the real thing:

Revelation 9:7 "And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns [stéphanos] like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men."

White always and without exception signifies purity, holiness, righteousness in the Revelation:

Jesus' head and hair appear white like wool (Rev 1:14).
A white stone with a saint's name written on it (Rev 2:17).
The white raiment of the saints (Rev.3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, 13 & 14).
The white clothing of the 24 elders (Rev 4:4).
The white clothing of angels (Rev 15:6).
The white raiment of the bride of Christ (Rev 19:8).
The Great White Throne (Rev 20:11).
Christ seated on a white cloud (Rev 14:14).
Christ returns on a white horse, leading His armies (Rev 19:11 & 14).
Christ's armies are riding white horses (Rev 19:14).

The first horseman of the Apocalypse is riding a white horse (Revelation 6:2). He is given a stéphanos crown. He has a bow, but no arrows are mentioned, yet he went forth conquering and to conquer.

@ewq1938

 

[ewq1938]

The error is to fail to understand that John was seeing visions that represent things. The "arrows" of the Word of God which the text does not have (but you have in your text)

Nothing is my text. My info comes from Greek scholars.

would be metaphorically referred to as the sword of the Word elsewhere.

No.

But there are no arrows mentioned. Only the color of the horse, the bow, and the type of crown its rider wears is mentioned.

Arrows are part of the words meaning. You show ZERO studying on this matter.

 

[ewq1938]

No, you only proved that it was a crown bestowed by someone with royal rank.

Wrong. I quoted the definition of the word and it can be a royal crown by itself.

 

[Zao is life]

Wrong. I quoted the definition of the word and it can be a royal crown by itself.

See post # 212

 

[Christian Gedge]

But what is also overlooked is the fact that Jesus did not take the flesh of the paschal lamb and share pieces with His disciples saying it represents His body - He took the unleavened bread.

Interesting point. Thanks.

Jesus is the firstborn of God. He was sacrificed on the first Day of Unleavened Bread - still the Passover, as you point out.

Yes, the first Tamid lamb was sacrificed at 9am at the same time Jesus was being nailed to the Cross. The second Tamid lamb at 3pm when Jesus died.

 

[Grailhunter]

Mostly no questions because I agree with most of your link. Uh, maybe one clarification. You say:

So, when do you say the the Jews kill and eat the Passover lamb?

Passover is a topic. At one time it was a family thing and it actually evolved.
And most of it makes sense.
Passover was commanded as a special festival to Yahweh in chapter 12 of Exodus.
The Tabernacle was not built yet.
So it talks about families conducting this celebration to the Yahweh.
So there were not strict rules for when the Lamb or goat would be slaughtered.
But the animal had to be completely eaten by sundown...dusk. So there had to be time to allow for slaughtering the animal, ritually draining its blood and cooking it while smear its blood on the sides and top of the doorframes. And then eating it at supper with the family before dusk.

After the tabernacle sanctuary and the temple were built in Exodus chapter 25 and Kings respectively.....things became centralized and lines formed for slaughtering the animals. So again the time had to allow for groups slaughtering the animals...around 3:00 in the afternoon they were pretty busy....not to say that they did not start a little early to get things done in the allotted time.

 

[Zao is life]

Passover is a topic. At one time it was a family thing and it actually evolved.
And most of it make sense.
Passover was commanded as a special festival to Yahweh in chapter 12 of Exodus.
The Tabernacle was not built yet.
So it talks about families conducting this celebration to the Yahweh.
So there were not strict rules for when the Lamb or goat would be slaughtered.

I disagree that the above could have been the case because YHVH said very clearly that the month would be to them the begnning of the months and it was clear which day of the first month and at what time of day the lamb was to be slaughtered:

Exodus 12

2 This month shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.
3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth of this month they shall take to them each man a lamb for a father's house, a lamb for a house.
4 And if the household is too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take according to the number of the souls, each one, according to the eating of his mouth, you shall count concerning the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You shall take from the sheep or from the goats.

6 And you shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month. And the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7 And they shall take of the blood and strike on the two side posts and upon the upper door post of the houses in which they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roasted with fire, and unleavened bread. They shall eat it with bitter herbs.
9 Do not eat of it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted with fire, its head with its legs, and with its inward parts.

10 And you shall not let any of it remain until the morning. And that which remains of it until the morning you shall burn with fire.
11 And you shall eat of it this way, with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in a hurry. It is the LORD's passover.

I don't think any of them were surprised with the stipulations in the law which later followed.

 

[The Light]

You can make it up as you go.....I don't care.

Oh. You don't care. You want to keep your head in the sand instead of accepting the facts and the truth. Oh, I know. You have your own truth.

Let's see what I made up.

1. Passover is on the 14th of Nisan. Did I make that up?

Leviticus 23
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

Nope. Didn't make that up.

2. Jesus died on Passover. Did I make that up?

John 19
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

Nope. Didn't make that up.

3. Jesus died on a Friday. Did I make that up?

I'll just quote you. "One thing we know for sure, Christ was not crucified on the day He ate the His Last Supper. But the Jews would have normally been eating the Passover meal on the day Christ was crucified, that would be Friday before dusk."

Nope. Didn't make that up.

4. In AD 30 Passover was on a Wednesday. Did I make that up?

You can look that up easy enough.

So, nope. Didn't make that up.

I'm not capable of lying to myself. So many in the Church seem to have mastered this so-called art. Just not a talent that I want to gain.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh. You don't care. You want to keep your head in the sand instead of accepting the facts and the truth. Oh, I know. You have your own truth.

Let's see what I made up.

1. Passover is on the 14th of Nisan. Did I make that up?

Leviticus 23
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

Nope. Didn't make that up.

2. Jesus died on Passover. Did I make that up?

John 19
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

Nope. Didn't make that up.

3. Jesus died on a Friday. Did I make that up?

I'll just quote you. "One thing we know for sure, Christ was not crucified on the day He ate the His Last Supper. But the Jews would have normally been eating the Passover meal on the day Christ was crucified, that would be Friday before dusk."

Nope. Didn't make that up.

4. In AD 30 Passover was on a Wednesday. Did I make that up?

You can look that up easy enough.

So, nope. Didn't make that up.

I'm not capable of lying to myself. So many in the Church seem to have mastered this so-called art. Just not a talent that I want to gain.

Some of that is right. But I am not going to waste my time with you because you do not like history....and the Bible is history....and you are picking a choosing what you WANT to believe.....not what was.