What was the date of the Crucifixion?

[covenantee]

You obviously are unaware of the truncated past participle pronoun conversion.

Not sure anyone is aware of it. :)

Link?

 

[Timtofly]

This in fact proves that AD 30 is not the year Christ died, as proven by your own criteria. Passover falls on the 14th of Nisan in AD 33 therefore it is the year that Jesus died.

The only reason you choose 33 AD is because of landing on Friday. Which is the worse reason of all.

So stop making it about the 14th or 15th and own up to your illogical reason.

No person who actually observes the OT passover is going to declare it a specific date on any calendar past a certain year. All calendars are suspect, and not according to the actual full moon.

The full moon could land on any day. So even if one thinks they know when the full moon happened, why would that matter? That would mean they could only have the Passover on the years the full moon landed on the 14th and not when it landed on any other day. Since their calender started or was figured out by the full moon each year. That would mean you leave your 14th for a proper full moon day. And that would be hypocritical saying well guess what, my year the 14th and full moon happened to work out in my favor. It is still contradicting Scripture. An actual Hebrew Calendar would be set up based on the moon and that would be the 14th of their first month. Which means they don't even know when the first day of the month is until the full moon is seen, and then they can start their year. That may sound strange, but the only way to have the 14th fall on a full moon every single year. The issue is, do you want mathematical precision or a Scriptural basis for the year and time of the Cross? Or are we back to, it had to be a Friday?

The point about 30AD is that the full moon was still on Friday. But that was by calculation the 16th of Nissan. So you have the preparation on the 14th, the Passover 15th, and the high (full) moon 16th, and the Sabbath day itself. Explain that one, or keep your Friday, with Jesus in and out of the tomb 24 to 27 hours later.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no date in post #30 just a time period but who knows what date the Pharisees said that. All they are saying is that it took 46 years to build the temple they could of said that 2 years after the completion of the temple.

Once more no one will ever know if it was important the gospel writers would of recorded the date but they didn’t. God didn’t put it in the bible for a reason.

We know the date of the destruction of the temple from recorded history so all we know is that the temple was destroyed within forty years of Jesus giving the Olivit discourse. The reason we know is because Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed within that generation and it was which proved that Jesus was God thus that date was important.

So we know that Jesus was crucified within 40 years of 70AD thus that’s all we need to know so any date setting is just speculation.

Don’t get me wrong it can be fun to try and figure out the date buts it’s not that important and only speculation.

And 40 is not a biblical time period for a generation. The Bible never states the length of a generation. So if you want something biblical, you should drop 40 years as defining a generation. That is only human opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

Thank you very much for this, Chris. I have not come back here (or to any forum) even to read for quite a few months now. I don't know what prompted me to do so again last night, but I'm really glad I did. I notice the argument about whether or not Jesus was crucified on the 14th or the 15th Nisan.

I agree with you, the 14th is impossible:

Exodus 12
5 Your lamb must be perfect, a male, one year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.
6 You must care for it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then the whole community of Israel will kill it around sundown.

Leviticus 23
4 "'These are the LORD's appointed times, holy assemblies, which you must proclaim at their appointed time.
5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, is a Passover offering to the LORD.
6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month will be the festival of unleavened bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.
8 You must present a gift to the LORD for seven days, and the seventh day is a holy assembly; you must not do any regular work.'"

Mark 14
12 And the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the passover, His disciples said to Him, Where do You desire that we go and prepare that You may eat the passover?
13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, Go into the city, and there you shall meet a man bearing a pitcher of water. Follow him.

Luke 22
15 And He said to them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I say to you, I will not any more eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Twilight / sunset of the 14th begins the 15th day (every Jewish person knows this), and Jesus ate this, His last Passover meal, with His disciples at that time (on the 15th, the first day of unleavened bread, after the sunset of the 14th):

Mark 14
12 And the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the passover, His disciples said to Him, Where do You desire that we go and prepare that You may eat the passover?
13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, Go into the city, and there you shall meet a man bearing a pitcher of water. Follow him.

Mark 14
17 And in the evening He came with the Twelve.
18 And as they reclined and ate, Jesus said, Truly I say to you, One of you will betray Me, the one eating with Me.

So Jesus was not crucified at the same time that the Passover lamb was slaughtered (as some claim). How could He have eaten the slaughtered lamb with His disciples if He died on the cross at the same time as the Passover Lamb? No, the Lord was crucified on the same date that He had eaten the Passover with his disciples - the 15th of Nisan. He had been betrayed by Judas, was arrested after the meal, tried and sentenced - all on the 15th - and scripture testifies to this, leaving absolutely no doubt in Mark 14:12.

If He was crucified on the 14th, this would mean that His disciples slaughtered the Passover lamb on the evening of the previous night, just after sunset of the 13th. (Also, both Friday and Saturday would have been sabbath days when Jesus was crucified (I'm assuming 7 April was a Friday).

So thanks again for sharing this in this thread.

That would mean they ate it on Tuesday evening then, since our Tuesday evening starts the 14th, the day of preparation. That was the evening of the 14th. Jesus was still tried and crucified on the 14th, after sunrise.

Jesus was in the tomb, the whole of the 15th, 16th, and 17th.

 

[Zao is life]

No Sir. Christian Gedge did not answer Johns placing Jesus death on the Passover. And He will not be able to with those type of explanations. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that Jesus ate the Passover meal with them and died the next day. I believe them. John tells us that Jesus died on the Passover. I believe him also. The Word of God is not wrong, only our understanding is wrong. The only way I know of that Jesus could have died the day after Passover and died on Passover would be that there are two Passovers. Jesus held a Passover with the disciples the day before the scheduled Passover. All are telling the truth as thy Word is Truth.

That is what happens continually and should NEVER happen. It is why people are blind to the truth and lack understanding and end up with blind teachers. The blind leading the blind. Do not interpret what is written by what you think or want the outcome to be. Interpret what is written by the truth. It is the truth that sets us free. Should we guess whether the 70th week of Daniel has been completed or listen to others. Or should we go by the Word of God which tells us in Luke 3 that in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar the word of God came unto John the Baptist and he went forth preaching. That tells us that there is no way Jesus died in 30 AD. Straight from the Word of God. That is why when you presented Mark 14:12-13 I knew things did not add up and the answer had to be in the Word of God. And the Word of Truth was given by John that Jesus died on Passover. That's a fact.

I certainly have not either guessed or listened to others to conclude that the 70th week of Daniel was completed in the 1st century. I simply read the text without reading a "magical mouse cut 'n paste into another place" job into Daniel 9:27.

The Hebrew word achar in Daniel 9:26 in the text taught me that it was in Daniel's final 'week' that Messiah was cut off, because like the word after, it's always only used to denote something that follows after something else - like April is achar March, and Sunday is achar Saturday.

CG most certainly did explain it. It's you who isn't able to explain it. Jesus would not have observed the Passover meal with His disciples the day before the Jews observed it.

In the West we start the new day at midnight, but the biblical calendar starts the new day hours earlier, immediately after twilight, at nightfall - and this has been the case since Genesis 1:5.

From the days of the Exodus onward, there was only one night that the Jews would observe the Passover meal - the first hours of 15 Nisan (the nightfall after twilight of 14 Nisan), when the Passover Lamb was slaughtered. This is what all three of the synoptic gospels say. Is that just a coincidence?

I allow the scripture to create theology. The trouble though for many is either

1. If they have stood behind a pulpit or taught any group of people and been adamant for years that something is the case when it's not the case, instead of just admitting in humility that they were wrong, they desperately try to prove the facts wrong because they're afraid of 'losing face'.Or

2. The trouble for many others is that they have blinded themselves by placing all their faith in an interpretation that is false, and then when it comes to light that the notion they placed their faith in was wrong, they suffer a sense of cognitive dissonance and wind up like yourself of coming up with non-biblical assertions based on the ether, like Jesus observing the Passover seder with His disciples the night before the first night of Unleavened Bread (which according to law strictly followed by Jews starts immediately after twilight on 14 Nisan).

Thank goodness I didn't go down the "Teacher, Teacher" route - I am 100% free to allow scripture to say what it says, because if I see scripture pointing "this way", then I feel free to go "this way" and not "that way".

Exodus 12
5 Your lamb must be perfect, a male, one year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.
6 You must care for it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then the whole community of Israel will kill it around sundown / twilight.

Leviticus 23
4 "'These are the LORD's appointed times, holy assemblies, which you must proclaim at their appointed time.
5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, is a Passover offering to the LORD.
6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month will be the festival of unleavened bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.

Nightfall follows twilight, and marks the first night of 15 Nisan, the day Jesus was crucified.

 

[Zao is life]

The Word of God still hasn't changed. The fifteenth day of the first month on the MORROW AFTER the Passover, means the Passover is on the 14th day. Why do you argue against the Word of God?
Numbers 33

New York is hours behind Los Angeles in time?

The Passover lamb was slaughtered each year at twilight of 14 Nisan. Nightfall follows twilight, and nightfall begins the first day of Unleavened Bread - the "morrow" of the Passover seder was on the 15th Nisan.

But if you like, New York is hours behind L.A in time.

 

[Zao is life]

That would mean they ate it on Tuesday evening then, since our Tuesday evening starts the 14th, the day of preparation. That was the evening of the 14th. Jesus was still tried and crucified on the 14th, after sunrise.

Jesus was in the tomb, the whole of the 15th, 16th, and 17th.

I don't know where you get Tuesday = day of preparation. 14 Nisan of the biblical calendar does not fall on the same day of our calendar year after year. Each year it falls on a different day. You need to 100% ignore the Roman calendar to understand this correctly.

The Jews slaughtered the Passover lamb at twilight of 14 Nisan - ALWAYS - since the very first time they did this, the twilight before the exodus.

In the West we start "the following day" at midnight. The biblical calendar begins "the following day" hours earlier - from immediately after twilight, at nightfall.

Jesus celebrated the Passover seder with his disciples in the first few hours of 15 Nisan - in our Western reckoning, this would be "the night of 14 Nisan", after twilight - but we need to throw our calendar out the window when we deal with biblical time. In the biblical calendar it was the first hours of 15 Nisan that He ate the Passover with His disciples, following the twilight that closed 14 Nisan. The Jews always did this - and that year, 14 Nisan fell on our Thursday, and 15 Nisan on our Friday.

 

[Zao is life]

That’s because John’s Gospel uses the Roman time system, the sixth hour being 6 am.

Thank you! So glad I came back here. I've learned something new x 2 from you in this thread now.

 

[Philip James]

Nisan that He ate the Passover with His disciples, following the twilight that closed 14 Nisan.

Nope. Jesus offered Himself as the paschal lamb precisely the time proscriibed by Moses. In the evening (the start!) of Nisan 14 (Thurs night) He was crucifed in the afternoon Nisan 14 (Friday) and was placed in the tomb before sundown (the start) of Nisan 15.

Pax et Bonum

 

[The Light]

CG most certainly did explain it. It's you who isn't able to explain it. Jesus would not have observed the Passover meal with His disciples the day before the Jews observed it.

If Chris explained it then that makes John in error or lying. John said Pilate wanted to release Jesus as was the Passover custom to release someone on Passover. So, is John wrong?

In the West we start the new day at midnight, but the biblical calendar starts the new day hours earlier, immediately after twilight, at nightfall - and this has been the case since Genesis 1:5.

From the days of the Exodus onward, there was only one night that the Jews would observe the Passover meal - the first hours of 15 Nisan (the nightfall after twilight of 14 Nisan), when the Passover Lamb was slaughtered. This is what all three of the synoptic gospels say. Is that just a coincidence?

Exactly. The new day begins at nightfall as I have been saying. Looks like you got it. So is John lying or just in error in your opinion?

1. If they have stood behind a pulpit or taught any group of people and been adamant for years that something is the case when it's not the case, instead of just admitting in humility that they were wrong, they desperately try to prove the facts wrong because they're afraid of 'losing face'.Or

2. The trouble for many others is that they have blinded themselves by placing all their faith in an interpretation that is false, and then when it comes to light that the notion they placed their faith in was wrong, they suffer a sense of cognitive dissonance and wind up like yourself of coming up with non-biblical assertions based on the ether, like Jesus observing the Passover seder with His disciples the night before the first night of Unleavened Bread (which according to law strictly followed by Jews starts immediately after twilight on 14 Nisan).

So it is John that is in error?

Exodus 12
5 Your lamb must be perfect, a male, one year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.
6 You must care for it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then the whole community of Israel will kill it around sundown / twilight.

Leviticus 23
4 "'These are the LORD's appointed times, holy assemblies, which you must proclaim at their appointed time.
5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, is a Passover offering to the LORD.
6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month will be the festival of unleavened bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.

Nightfall follows twilight, and marks the first night of 15 Nisan, the day Jesus was crucified.

It's already been proven that the only date that Jesus could have died on is April 3, AD 33. Unless Luke is also in error.

 

[Zao is life]

Nope. Jesus offered Himself as the paschal lamb precisely the time proscriibed by Moses. In the evening (the start!) of Nisan 14 (Thurs night) He was crucifed in the afternoon Nisan 14 (Friday) and was placed in the tomb before sundown (the start) of Nisan 15.

Pax et Bonum

He died at 3pm. In Israel the sun is still shining at 3pm. Keep guessing.

If you were concentrating on the facts that CG spoke about (and that he did not suck out of his thumb), there were two lambs slaughtered on the 15th as part of the usual daily sacrifices - one at 9am when Jesus was placed on the cross, and one at 3pm when Jesus died.

The blood of the Passover lamb that was slaughtered on the very first Passover saved the lives of Israel's firstborn in Egypt. Jesus is the firstborn. Think about it. The next 24-hour period was Israel's deliverance from bondage in Egypt. Think about it - and while you think about it, try not to deny facts.

 

[Zao is life]

If Chris explained it then that makes John in error or lying. John said Pilate wanted to release Jesus as was the Passover custom to release someone on Passover. So, is John wrong?
Exactly. The new day begins at nightfall as I have been saying. Looks like you got it. So is John lying or just in error in your opinion?



So it is John that is in error?




It's already been proven that the only date that Jesus could have died on is April 3, AD 33. Unless Luke is also in error.

If you got arrested for a crime you did not commit and CNN, New York Times and everyone else besides were demanding you go to the electric chair, and on 26 December the supreme court judge said, publicly, "As is custom I am allowed to pardon and release one prisoner at Christmas time. Which one of these two would you have me release - this murderer, or "The Light"? Would you argue with him too that it was not Christmas day so it cannot happen?

The Day of Passover and the night of the meal (the start of the 15th), and the Unleavened Bread which began the same night, lasted 7 days. It was called "Passover" by Rome.

In the UK and Australia the Christmas holidays are both 25th and 26th December. In Germany they eat their Christmas dinner on the night of the 24th - Christmas Eve. The 24th-26th are all Christmas holidays.

The blood of the Passover lamb saved Israel from the death of the firstborn in Egypt. Jesus was the firstborn.

@The Light I edited this post here:

Jesus did not take the flesh of the Passover lamb that had been slaughtered and slice it up, sharing it with His disciples, saying, "Take, eat. This is (represents) my body".

No. He did not do that. "As they were eating, Jesus took (the unleavened) bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is My body. And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:26-28).

The flesh of the Passover lamb represents the sacrifice of the lamb whose blood was shed to save Israel from the death of the firstborn in Egypt.

Jesus is the firstborn of God. He gave His own body and shed His own blood of the New Covenant to save Israel and the whole world from our sins.

If Jesus was crucified for all of us on 15 Nisan - the first day of Unleavened Bread - it does not defy the law of Moses. Think about it. The same night and following day (15 Nisan) marked Israel's deliverance from bondage in Egypt. Jesus died to deliver us from our sins:

1 Corinthians 5
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For also Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast; not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Here's the difference. If you found that in the Word of God I would believe it. If I found in the Word of God, what you are saying is untrue, your track record says you would not accept the Word of God.

Here it is in the Word of God: Compare John 19:14 with Mark 15:25.

St. John was counting from midnight (Roman time) when he describes Jesus trial as the “sixth hour.” St. Mark was counting from daybreak when he describes Jesus crucifixion as the “third hour.”

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know where you get Tuesday = day of preparation. 14 Nisan of the biblical calendar does not fall on the same day of our calendar year after year. Each year it falls on a different day. You need to 100% ignore the Roman calendar to understand this correctly.

The Jews slaughtered the Passover lamb at twilight of 14 Nisan - ALWAYS - since the very first time they did this, the twilight before the exodus.

In the West we start "the following day" at midnight. The biblical calendar begins "the following day" hours earlier - from immediately after twilight, at nightfall.

Jesus celebrated the Passover seder with his disciples in the first few hours of 15 Nisan - in our Western reckoning, this would be "the night of 14 Nisan", after twilight - but we need to throw our calendar out the window when we deal with biblical time. In the biblical calendar it was the first hours of 15 Nisan that He ate the Passover with His disciples, following the twilight that closed 14 Nisan. The Jews always did this - and that year, 14 Nisan fell on our Thursday, and 15 Nisan on our Friday.

That does not mean Jesus and the disciples did that.

The last supper was bread and wine. It was not a Passover supper. It was the preparation for the Lamb of God, not just the yearly Passover.

The evening before the daylight of the 14th is always our day before midnight. The Lord's Supper was in the evening, then they went to the garden and prayed. Then at day break still on the 14th the soldiers came to the garden. Jesus was buried at the evening of the 15th around 6pm just hours after dying on the 14th.

 

[The Light]

Here it is in the Word of God: Compare John 19:14 with Mark 15:25.

St. John was counting from midnight (Roman time) when he describes Jesus trial as the “sixth hour.” St. Mark was counting from daybreak when he describes Jesus crucifixion as the “third hour.”

Nice. Ok, give me the punchline. How does that affect your view?

 

[The Light]

If you got arrested for a crime you did not commit and CNN, New York Times and everyone else besides were demanding you go to the electric chair, and on 26 December the supreme court judge said, publicly, "As is custom I am allowed to pardon and release one prisoner at Christmas time. Which one of these two would you have me release - this murderer, or "The Light"? Would you argue with him too that it was not Christmas day so it cannot happen?

The Day of Passover and the night of the meal (the start of the 15th), and the Unleavened Bread which began the same night, lasted 7 days. It was called "Passover" by Rome.

In the UK and Australia the Christmas holidays are both 25th and 26th December. In Germany they eat their Christmas dinner on the night of the 24th - Christmas Eve. The 24th-26th are all Christmas holidays.

The blood of the Passover lamb saved Israel from the death of the firstborn in Egypt. Jesus was the firstborn.

@The Light I edited this post here:

Jesus did not take the flesh of the Passover lamb that had been slaughtered and slice it up, sharing it with His disciples, saying, "Take, eat. This is (represents) my body".

No. He did not do that. "As they were eating, Jesus took (the unleavened) bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is My body. And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:26-28).

The flesh of the Passover lamb represents the sacrifice of the lamb whose blood was shed to save Israel from the death of the firstborn in Egypt.

Jesus is the firstborn of God. He gave His own body and shed His own blood of the New Covenant to save Israel and the whole world from our sins.

If Jesus was crucified for all of us on 15 Nisan - the first day of Unleavened Bread - it does not defy the law of Moses. Think about it. The same night and following day (15 Nisan) marked Israel's deliverance from bondage in Egypt. Jesus died to deliver us from our sins:

1 Corinthians 5
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For also Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast; not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

It's a nice explanation and all and I certainly understand what you are saying. Here is the problem with your point of view.

John 9
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Preparation of the Passover takes place on the 14th of Nisan. Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, not the 15th as you suggest.

 

[covenantee]

Preparation of the Passover takes place on the 14th of Nisan. Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, not the 15th as you suggest.

In each case, what were the implications for the 70th week?

 

[Philip James]

He died at 3pm. In Israel the sun is still shining at 3pm. Keep guessing.

. Think about it - and while you think about it, try not to deny facts.

Hello Fullness,

how bout these facts:

On Thursday evening, during the evening twilight, the beginning of Nisan 14,
when 'the hour had come' as proscribed by Moses,
Jesus our Lord and High Priest
offered Himself as our paschal Lamb in the form of bread and wine.
'this is My Body, take and eat'

On Friday afternoon (still Nisan 14) Jesus was crucified, died and was laid in a tomb
before sundown (the start of Nisan 15)

Pax et Bonum

 

[The Light]

In each case, what were the implications for the 70th week?

Jesus death on the 14th of Nisan on April 3, 33 AD means that Messiah is cut off after the 69th week as the scripture says. As for the proposed death of Jesus on Nisan 15 AD 30 I see no scriptural support for the April 7, AD 30 death.

The 70th week is just around the corner. You should be seeing signs of the beginning of sorrows, with wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilences. The Lord is coming soon.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus death on the 14th of Nisan on April 3, 33 AD means that Messiah is cut off after the 69th week as the scripture says. As for the proposed death of Jesus on Nisan 15 AD 30 I see no scriptural support for the April 7, AD 30 death.

The 70th week is just around the corner. You should be seeing signs of the beginning of sorrows, with wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilences. The Lord is coming soon.

What of grammatical scriptural support, which clearly identifies Messiah as the prince in Daniel 9:26, and Messiah as the "he's" in Daniel 9:27; and thus an historically fulfilled 70th week?