What Need I of Grace?

[Eternally Grateful]

So which of these 4 options would you choose?

According as I also am of Christ

non of the above

Its WHY jesus came in the first place

Because if you COULD keep the law. Christ had no need to come. He would just judge us according to our works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you suggesting that we can't take Yahshua at his word?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That word means mature

Do you really think you are sinless?

I think you need to rithink that position if you think you are

1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[HARK!]

Why do you not become justified. so that the law in the present perfect tese can be fulfilled in your life?

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You won't be under the tutor, when you can walk like Messiah. Are you there yet? Apparently Paul didn't believe that he was; because he phrased it in the present perfect tense. I'm getting there; but I don't have that walking on water thingy down yet.

I am not under a tutur Because As paul said, I am justified.

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

If your not justified by faith. You are still under a tutor. no matter how well you think you walk

 

[charity]

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Some say that, as believers in Yahshua, we have no more commitment to the law.
Now if there is no law, there is no transgression. If there is no transgression; there is no sin.
If there is no sin; then I would ask, "what need I of grace?

Hello @Hark,

Your question, 'What need I of grace?' is a good question, and I thank you for asking it. It is challenging and that is good. Is not the simple answer that the grace of God in Christ Jesus is the only means of attaining to God's righteousness. As is seen with the example of Israel, in Romans 10:1-4, and in Galatians 2:19-21:-

In Romans 10:4, using the version of your choice, the CLV:- Paul said 'For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing.' and in Galatians 2:19-21 says:-

'For I, through law, died to law, that I should be living to God.
With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living;
no longer I, but living in me is Christ.
Now that which I am now living in flesh,
I am living in faith that is of the Son of God,
Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me.
I am not repudiating the grace of God,
for if righteousness is through law,
consequently Christ died gratuitously.'

*So, @Hark, are we agreed that where the righteousness of God is concerned the law is ineffectual? Paul testified concerning this in Philippians 3:4-11:-

4 'And am I having confidence in flesh, also? If any other one is presuming to have confidence in flesh, I rather:
5 in circumcision the eighth day, of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, in relation to law, a Pharisee,
6 in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
7 But things which were gain to me, these I have deemed a forfeit because of Christ.
8 But, to be sure, I am also deeming all to be a forfeit because of the superiority of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord,
because of Whom I forfeited all, and am deeming it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.'

* Surely that is why you need the grace of God, (Ephesians 2:8-10)

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

Or in the CLV:-

'For in grace, through faith, are you saved,
and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present,
not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
For His achievement are we,
being created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God makes ready beforehand,
that we should be walking in them.'

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Eternally Grateful]

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

Abraham was declaired righteous before he did any works.

He was justified by Faith.

Will you join him?

 

[HARK!]

Do you really think you are sinless?

Do you? If not, the law is for you. We've covered this already.

(CLV) 1Ti 1:9
being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,

(CLV) 1Ti 1:10
paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,

 

[CharismaticLady]

How do we know what YHWH's standard is?

Hi Hark, you didn't answer this in your email, so what are the points derived from this passage:

Study Romans 8:1-9 and tell me what you see.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[HARK!]

Abraham was declaired righteous before he did any works.

He was justified by Faith.

Will you join him?

I have. Have you?

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

 

[Candidus]

But it does not mean you are perfect Your not Jesus. You do not love perfect. If you think you do you are in danger

Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

If anyone thinks that they are exempt from what Jesus says, they are in danger.

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. " 1 Jn. 4:16-17.

I would not claim spiritual high-ground in denying that God perfects people in love; that would be dangerous.

“And above all these things put on charity [love], which is the bond of perfectness.” Col. 3:14.

Is this another false claim or command to do something? Will you claim that Paul was a failure in this respect?

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God..,” Hebrews 6:1.

You claim that no one goes onto perfection... which makes the commands and possibilities of the Bible to be false. If God commands that we "be" perfect, and He cannot make us "perfect," then how can you ever believe God when He promises heaven?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you? If not, the law is for you. We've covered this already.

No. and the law can not make me sinless

And yes we have been though this already

The law was NEVER given to make you sinless. It does not tell you each and every possible sin you could ever commit. Jesus made this clear in the sermon on the mount, how defective the law was in that area. It was never given for that purpose

(CLV) 1Ti 1:9
being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,

(CLV) 1Ti 1:10
paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,

lol..

Again, John said you are deceived if you think are sinless..

So do you still think you are sinless?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have. Have you?

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

Yeah

John 3, jhn 4 John 5 John 6, Roman 10 Romans 4, Eph 1 and 2.

Why are you giving me james, james does not tell me how to be saved?

 

[justbyfaith]

Your teachers are morons! Honey, RUN!!! What they are teaching you is greasy grace. Jude 1:4 spoke against turning the grace of God into licentiousness! Just believe in Jesus and you can do whatever you want.

It has been said that this is the case because if you believe in Jesus, what you want to do will be different than what it was before; because now you have holy desires and inclinations.

I would say however that the flesh is sinful and that this produces a desire for sin...and therefore a comparison between 1 John 3:9 and Galatians 5:17 is in order; focus on the word "cannot".

Believing isn't some ethereal Greek philosophy. If we believe; there is action behind it.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Rom 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Past tense.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.


(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.



(CLV) 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

I like to let this verse really sink in, every time I read it.

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

So your perfect today? You are in a state where you do not sin, and have been in this state how long?

Romans 7:6 has a bearing on this in conjunction with a literal rendering of 1 John 3:9...

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

The law of Christ is the law that YHWH gave to Moses.

The law of Christ is set forth in that we now have the Spirit of God and are obedient to His leadings and promptings. Because we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that would condemn our behaviour. And this is truly the law of Christ. Also, technically, it is the law of love; that we bear one another's burdens (Galatians 6:2).

That law was given to lead us as a schoolmaster to Christ.

Not according to Paul. According to Paul, the law was given for the lawless.

Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Because if you COULD keep the law. Christ had no need to come.

Indeed.

Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness does not come through law-keeping; however law-keeping comes through righteousness (see Romans 8:4, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:9)

Again, John said you are deceived if you think are sinless..

So do you still think you are sinless?

1 John 1:8 is referring to the fact that sin dwells in our mortal flesh; not to the fact that it is inevitable but that we must commit sin in the future. If it were saying that we must commit sin, it would be in contradiction to 1 John 3:4-9.

There is more that I have to say on this subject:

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

 

[Renniks]

What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

James does not teach that we are saved by our good works. It teaches that we are saved by faith… but by the kind of faith that produces good works.
James is arguing against the false notion that “a merely spoken or mentally assented” faith is a substitute for saving faith.
So, no, we should not be murderers or thieves or blasphemers and so on, but none of the laws we might break condemn us to hell.

 

[Candidus]

That word means mature

Do you really think you are sinless?

I think you need to rithink that position if you think you are

1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 Jn. 1:8 has nothing to do with Christians; you know, Christians he just said (v.7) were cleansed from ALL sin! ( And immediately after that said he tells the non-Christians that if they confessed their sins they would not only be forgiven of those sins, but to be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. (v.9). Just like those Christians he told them about!

Explain how someone "cleansed from ALL sin, still has sin! Explain how someone who has been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness still has sin!

If John says that Christians who have been cleansed of ALL sin still "have" sin in verse 8, then John is a liar! He cannot be believed in anything he says! You do not believe John when he says that he writes that we do not sin [singular, even once!] You do not believe John when he says, "He who sins is of the devil," or when he says that we can be Perfect in love. You don't believe that it is only "if" we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light... the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin.., every passage I have ever quoted from 1 John to you, you have denied as true and authoritative; so why would you accept what he says in 1 Jn. 1:8? Why would that, wrenched out its context, be authority?

The word does not merely mean "mature," for you have nothing to gauge whether you are "mature." Are you "mature"? Are you "mature" as your Heavenly Father is "mature"? Nonsense! I am more "mature" than you! Therefore... are you not mature? What is the gauge, how do you know you have arrived?

Even "mature" must be defined. A casual dismissal of the weight of the term by merely saying "mature" is meaningless. Even "mature" must bend to the meaning in the Greek as "Complete, wanting nothing." Do "mature" Christians fight so hard for sin? Does failing God's promises and continuing in sin make you "Complete"?

Perfect means complete, flawless, wanting nothing. Perfect, fully completing what you were created for. Therefore, being Perfect or Complete does have something to do with sin, for we could not be Perfect and Complete with it! God created Adam without sin; that is what a Perfect man looks like. In fact, if we hold to firmly to this claim that it only means "mature" and not "Perfect, complete, wanting nothing..." then the words of Jesus on the Cross would be: "It is Mature!"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 John 1:8 is referring to the fact that sin dwells in our mortal flesh; not to the fact that it is inevitable but that we must commit sin in the future. If it were saying that we must commit sin, it would be in contradiction to 1 John 3:4-9.

There is more that I have to say on this subject:

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

I think John was telling us if we think we are sinless we are decieved

Not that we must sin, But the inevitability is that we will. Its our fallen nature. We do not love 24/7 perfectly as Christ did For this reason. When we do fail to love, we have in fact committed sin..

What the issue is, I think to many people do not actually know what sin is..

 

[justbyfaith]

I think John was telling us if we think we are sinless we are decieved

Not that we must sin, But the inevitability is that we will. Its our fallen nature. We do not love 24/7 perfectly as Christ did For this reason. When we do fail to love, we have in fact committed sin..

What the issue is, I think to many people do not actually know what sin is..

While it is possible to cease from abiding in Christ, I believe that the ideal is that we should abide 24/7. And I don't think that this is impossible, see Luke 1:37 (kjv).

Luk 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

I have more thoughts on this issue:

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

 

[justbyfaith]

Its our fallen nature.

Christ died on the Cross to deal with our fallen nature.

Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29, 1 John 1:7.

Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11, Galatians 5:24.

Galatians 2:20.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

While it is possible to cease from abiding in Christ, I believe that the ideal is that we should abide 24/7. And I don't think that this is impossible, see Luke 1:37 (kjv).

Luk 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

I have more thoughts on this issue:

entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

Then, I suggest you head John 1:8,

we cay say we (he included himself) are without sin we are deceived.

We need to learn what sin is, Not think because I do not do certain physical sins I am ok..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christ died on the Cross to deal with our fallen nature.

Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29, 1 John 1:7.

Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11, Galatians 5:24.

Galatians 2:20.

Yep

Yet in rom 7, he spoke of his war with his fallen nature.

If Paul still warned with his nature far be it for me to think I am better than paul