What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Marymog]

"Which Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?"

The "Church" is ALL Christians, it's not the denomination or a building, and all doctrine comes from scripture. My rock is Jesus, not Peter..the Living Word...

Hi Nancy,

If the Church is ALL Christians then, according to Scripture, we are all the pillar and foundation of truth. As you can see that theory does not work since we all have different truths.

Scripture has to be interpreted by humans. You have clearly interpreted Scripture different then other men to come to your conclusion on this matter. So should I believe YOUR interpretation or the interpretation of other men?

Maybe Peter isn't your rock but Jesus thought highly enough of him to call him rock and gave him the keys to heaven and the power to bind on earth what will be bound in heaven. Even though YOU don't think he is a rock....Jesus did and I believe Jesus over you.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

So, I am not allowing you to twist the conversation around and make me the subject here... It is incumbent upon you to justify why you believe your particular church is the church Jesus has granted such authority as described above, and to prove this in light of history and scripture.

Hi brakelite.



I have already MULTIPLE TIMES over the last several years and HUNDREDS of posts justified how the CC is The Church spoken of in Scripture.

No twisting here kiddo and you are not the subject here as you seem to think. It is a simple question that you can't answer. You CLEARLY think that the CC is NOT The Church Jesus spoke of in Scripture. If you KNOW that the CC isn't then you must KNOW which Church is.....or maybe you just haven't figured it out yet thru all your studies? You say the CC is not The Church but have failed to say which church is.

I have already figured out which church is The Church that has been here since Jesus brought it into existence 2,000 years ago. You haven't figured it out yet but I have. You must still be trying to figure out what I figured out a long time ago. Do you really believe that God is hiding from man for 2,000 years the truth of what Church he was speaking of?

Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thank you Nancy.

Your "local body" theory knocks the decision down from billions of people to thousands of churches since there are thousands of different churches sooooo that theory won't work either.

Where does Scripture say that the "local body" decides? Didn't the Apostles settle this at the Council of Jerusalem when the "local body" had a interpretation different than the Apostles? In that dispute the Apostles (The Church) held a meeting telling ALL CHRISTIANS what they were to believe/practice on the matter.

What should we do when my "local body" disagrees with your local body and your elders/deacons/pastors/priests/bishops disagree with mine?


Curious Mary

Mary: GOD decides. We are Christians: disciples of Christ.

 

[Marymog]

Your comment regarding the following would be appreciated...

The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.”

Hi. I will gladly comment on it. Not that it will change your Anti-Catholic stance but repeating the truth instead of your edited out of context garbage can't hurt.

The Council of Toulouse was organized in reaction to the Albigensian heresy which held that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter is evil. From this they concluded that fornication could be no sin and they even encouraged suicide among their members.

The Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today publishing their severely flawed New World Translation of the Bible, which has been deliberately mistranslated to support the sect’s claims). What came from the hands of the Albigensians was an adulterated Bible. The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation.

Sooooo Brakelite you should be THANKING The Church for what they did and stop being soooooo Anti-Catholic.....;)

 

[Marymog]

Mary: GOD decides. We are Christians: disciples of Christ.

Ummmm..... I think YOU decided since YOU told me what I should believe Scripture says. ;)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ummmm..... I think YOU decided since YOU told me what I should believe Scripture says. ;)

Mary, you're trying to proselytize here without understanding the role Christ plays in others Christian's lives.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, you're trying to proselytize here without understanding the role Christ plays in others Christian's lives.

Oh....and YOU aren't proselytizing? YOU understand?

Hmmmm.....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Oh....and YOU aren't proselytizing? YOU understand?

Hmmmm.....

Obviously not.

I also acknowledge the role Christ has in other Christians lives.

 

[marks]

If you KNOW that the CC isn't then you must KNOW which Church is.....

Actually, that's not valid logic.

OK . . . calculators away . . .

"145,995 X 19,220 = 20"

Now, question, who knows that this equation isn't correct, even though you don't know the correct answer?

Just sayin' . . .

 

[marks]

Hi. I will gladly comment on it. Not that it will change your Anti-Catholic stance but repeating the truth instead of your edited out of context garbage can't hurt.

The Council of Toulouse was organized in reaction to the Albigensian heresy which held that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter is evil. From this they concluded that fornication could be no sin and they even encouraged suicide among their members.

The Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today publishing their severely flawed New World Translation of the Bible, which has been deliberately mistranslated to support the sect’s claims). What came from the hands of the Albigensians was an adulterated Bible. The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation.

Sooooo Brakelite you should be THANKING The Church for what they did and stop being soooooo Anti-Catholic.....;)

So this was directed only to that particular translation?

Are these accurate quotes?

"We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out. Concil Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229.

"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned." D. Lortch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910,p. 14.

"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies . . . pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."
December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX

No one can have their own Bible?

Or is this not accurate?

 

[brakelite]

This

The Council of Toulouse was organized in reaction to the Albigensian heresy

Is typical Catholic apologists' lies regarding early Christian communities who refused to accept the pagan garbage the papacy was introducing into the church. The Waldensians, the Albigenses, the Paulicians, were different names of the same people, and the papacy hated them with a vengeance and instigated crusades against them in an evil demon inspired attempt to destroy them, and then invented lies concerning them to justify their murdering vicious Antichrist butchering. You Mary, in your complete ignorance and blindness to history and the stark reality of your own church's apostate growth into a harlot butcher are defending nothing but satanic slander and lies against godly communities to justify killing. You need to educate yourself to the real history of those people and not the dime store fictional version foisted upon a gullible deceived people by the Vatican.

 

[brakelite]

I have already figured out which church is The Church that has been here since Jesus brought it into existence 2,000 years ago. You haven't figured it out yet but I have. You must still be trying to figure out what I figured out a long time ago. Do you really believe that God is hiding from man for 2,000 years the truth of what Church he was speaking of?

Your apostate church was not the church Christ instituted. Your church did not start in Palestine, it started in Rome. Your church did not start with Christ, it started with backsliding political power hungry apostate bishops grovelling before the emperors for fame and fortune, inheriting from the pagan Roman world their love for honour, as well as the Roman penchant for persecuting and torturing their enemies. And while that particular branch of the church fell into the abyss, Christ's church grew and blossomed throughout the world... From Britain to China... Having scriptures in their own languages, Greek, Itala, Syrian etc and not hidden from them in a Latin understood only by intellectuals.
Two branches of "Christianity".... One true that had to resist the persecutions of the false, the papacy, Islam, and the Zoroastrians, as well as the paganism of the Picts and Catholic Kings in Europe such as Clovis... Read your history.

 

[Marymog]

Obviously not.

I also acknowledge the role Christ has in other Christians lives.

As Christians we are called to proselytize. It is not obvious to me by reading your post that you are proselytizing so for you to say you are not doing that is interesting to me.

 

[Marymog]

Actually, that's not valid logic.

OK . . . calculators away . . .

"145,995 X 19,220 = 20"

Now, question, who knows that this equation isn't correct, even though you don't know the correct answer?

Just sayin' . . .

I don't get your math logic but I digress.

Do you really believe after 2,000 years that God is hiding from men His true Church that was established by his Son? We are told that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth but He is not allowing us to KNOW that Church? Fascinating theory on your part.

According to you the CC does not meet your criteria for being The Church that was established by Christ.

Which Church meets YOUR criteria?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

So this was directed only to that particular translation?

Are these accurate quotes?

"We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out. Concil Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229.

"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned." D. Lortch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910,p. 14.

"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies . . . pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."
December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX

No one can have their own Bible?

Or is this not accurate?

Hi,

I can't find any Council of Tolosanum....I suspect you are talking about the Council of Tarragona? It was a local Council not a Church Council. I would encourage you to do your own research instead of cutting and pasting from anti-Catholic websites that can't even get the name of the council correct.

Instead of addressing your partial quotes from what I presume is a lengthy dissertation from Church Council decrees or letters or encyclicals etc. on the matter we should talk about historcial context.

In historical context YES, The Church did forbid bibles that were mistranslated which made them heretical writings. And for that you should be thanking The Church for keeping the word of God pure from heresy.

Mary

Mary

 

[Marymog]

This

Is typical Catholic apologists' lies regarding early Christian communities who refused to accept the pagan garbage the papacy was introducing into the church. The Waldensians, the Albigenses, the Paulicians, were different names of the same people, and the papacy hated them with a vengeance and instigated crusades against them in an evil demon inspired attempt to destroy them, and then invented lies concerning them to justify their murdering vicious Antichrist butchering. You Mary, in your complete ignorance and blindness to history and the stark reality of your own church's apostate growth into a harlot butcher are defending nothing but satanic slander and lies against godly communities to justify killing. You need to educate yourself to the real history of those people and not the dime store fictional version foisted upon a gullible deceived people by the Vatican.

Ignorance and blindness???? Wow....those are strong words! :)

I am an apologist for The Church.

You are an apologist for Protestantism that also has the same "pagan garbage" that The Church has and has divided Christianity. If you are comfortable supporting the division of Christianity then that burden is on your shoulders.

You are an apologist for Protestants that hated Catholics so much they hunted them down and killed them. The same Protestant Church that now allows gay clergy, performs gay marriages and holds prayer vigils outside of abortion clinics praying for the doctors....not the victims of abortion.

You support a teaching that denies the words of Christ when He said "This IS my body".....You and your ilk say it is not. Scripture says "baptism now saves you"....You and your ilk say it does not.

I support a Church that does not allow any of that and has not allowed it for 2,000 years.....You do! Why do you?

I want us all to be one...just like Christ prayed for in John 17. You and your Protestant friends think that YOU know the truth because YOU have been guided by the Holy Spirit. You do not believe that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth

Mary

BTW....the Crusades prevented Muslims from taking over the world and forcing your Christian forefathers to become Muslim or be killed. Why are you against The Crusades? I look forward to your answer on that one kiddo...

 

[Marymog]

Your apostate church was not the church Christ instituted. Your church did not start in Palestine, it started in Rome. Your church did not start with Christ, it started with backsliding political power hungry apostate bishops grovelling before the emperors for fame and fortune, inheriting from the pagan Roman world their love for honour, as well as the Roman penchant for persecuting and torturing their enemies. And while that particular branch of the church fell into the abyss, Christ's church grew and blossomed throughout the world... From Britain to China... Having scriptures in their own languages, Greek, Itala, Syrian etc and not hidden from them in a Latin understood only by intellectuals.
Two branches of "Christianity".... One true that had to resist the persecutions of the false, the papacy, Islam, and the Zoroastrians, as well as the paganism of the Picts and Catholic Kings in Europe such as Clovis... Read your history.

Yes, The Roman Church did start in Rome....that is only logical! It was started by Peter. You remember Peter? The one who Jesus said "Upon this rock I will build my Church".

Who started your Church?

You do keep me in stitches kiddo....

 

[marks]

I don't get your math logic but I digress.

The logic is that you don't have to know what the right answer is in order to know that an answer is wrong.

That was the logic presented, which I am debunking. That's all.

 

[Marymog]

Which ones were those?

Learn YOUR Christian history.....it was the ones that contained heretical errors and mistranslations.

 

[Marymog]

The logic is that you don't have to know what the right answer is in order to know that an answer is wrong.

That was the logic presented, which I am debunking. That's all.

Hmmmm.......according to your theory we don't have to know the right answer of what is written in Scripture to recognize a lie. Interesting theory....