What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Grailhunter]

LOL! You sound like the dwarves in The Hobbit movie who were offended by the elves' "green food." Ever see the movie?

Oh of course I saw the movie. Very good.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I am assuming you guys are talking to me....coffee....
I do not like water....but drink all the time....coffee, tea, milk, juice, etc....but not much water.
Healthy old ox. Burgess Meredith...movie....Grumpier Old Men.. He talks about it...something like Those flat bellied-Green loving doctors say I should have died years go.....but I am a healthy old ox and they are little weaklings eating their lettuce and worry about their health...that is not even close to what Burgess said....it is the point. lol

It helps if you have good-tasting water. We use a Berkey filter to get all the crine and other junk out, so the water tastes very fresh. If I don't drink plenty of water, my lungs tend to dry out and I have a hard time breathing, so I'm very thankful for good water.

 

[Grailhunter]

It helps if you have good-tasting water. We use a Berkey filter to get all the crine and other junk out, so the water tastes very fresh. If I don't drink plenty of water, my lungs tend to dry out and I have a hard time breathing, so I'm very thankful for good water.

I do like fresh spring water....had some about five years ago.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I do like fresh spring water....had some about five years ago.

Five years ago? lol

 

[Grailhunter]

Five years ago? lol

So far the concept of liquid is liquid has worked for me....lots of liguid....4 or 5 cans of Coke a month.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Prayer Warrior, let me know if you actually want to talk about this.

 

[Marymog]

Does it make any sense that if a person was lied to in order to get them to join an organization... that they would stay there for even a day more if they were suddenly made to now know all sorts of things that had been kept secret from them when they were recruited? I sure would on the first bus outta there.

Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?

 

[Enoch111]

Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?

The Holy Spirit decides, and shows you from Scripture what is true and what is a lie.

Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. (John 16:13).

So are you depending on the Holy Spirit or some Catholic priest?

 

[Marymog]

The Holy Spirit decides, and shows you from Scripture what is true and what is a lie.

Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. (John 16:13).

So are you depending on the Holy Spirit or some Catholic priest?

Thank you Enoch.

I love bible study. Did you know that Jesus was speaking to his Apostles when he said that? That passage is NOT meant for all Christians. If it were meant for all Christians then all Christians can rightfully say (under a false belief) they personally have been guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth. In that passage Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide THE APOSTLES into all Truth; NOT every Christian. One example of the Spirit guiding the Apostles was at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:28). Notice how THEIR decision was binding upon ALL Christian's. Each individual Christian DID NOT get to decide what the Truth was.....the Church (church elders) did.

Soooo lets put your interpretation, Scripture says Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth, to the test. The Holy Spirit has shown you a different truth then he has shown @brakelite @amadeus @Prayer Warrior @Nancy and @Jane_Doe22 Martin Luther and John Calvin. All of you can't be right and we KNOW the Holy Spirit isn't confused so clearly your theory (interpretation of that verse) doesn't work. Soooooo someone is confused. Is it the Holy Spirit or one of the aforementioned eight? Is a Priest only right when he agrees with YOUR Truth?

Scripture never says that individual Christians will be guided to the Truth by the Holy Spirit. Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus built a (singular) Church and Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and to settle our differences we take it to the Church to decide who is right and who is wrong. Which brings us full circle back to......The Council of Jerusalem.

So Enoch...In an effort to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference?

Bible Study Mary





Sooooo, once again: Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?

Bible study Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you Enoch.

I love bible study. Did you know that Jesus was speaking to his Apostles when he said that? That passage is NOT meant for all Christians. If it were meant for all Christians then all Christians can rightfully say (under a false belief) they personally have been guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth. In that passage Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide THE APOSTLES into all Truth; NOT every Christian. One example of the Spirit guiding the Apostles was at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:28). Notice how THEIR decision was binding upon ALL Christian's. Each individual Christian DID NOT get to decide what the Truth was.....the Church (church elders) did.

Soooo lets put your interpretation, Scripture says Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth, to the test. The Holy Spirit has shown you a different truth then he has shown @brakelite @amadeus @Prayer Warrior @Nancy and @Jane_Doe22 Martin Luther and John Calvin. All of you can't be right and we KNOW the Holy Spirit isn't confused so clearly your theory (interpretation of that verse) doesn't work. Soooooo someone is confused. Is it the Holy Spirit or one of the aforementioned eight? Is a Priest only right when he agrees with YOUR Truth?

Scripture never says that individual Christians will be guided to the Truth by the Holy Spirit. Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus built a (singular) Church and Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and to settle our differences we take it to the Church to decide who is right and who is wrong. Which brings us full circle back to......The Council of Jerusalem.

So Enoch...In an effort to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference?

Bible Study Mary





Sooooo, once again: Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?

Bible study Mary

That’s the CC’s interpretation of that verse. You’re welcome to believe that if you so choose, but the Holy Spirit guides me into truth.... PTL!!!

 

[Marymog]

That’s the CC’s interpretation of that verse. You’re welcome to believe that if you so choose, but the Holy Spirit guides me into truth.... PTL!!!

Thank you Prayer Warrior.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide the men of the Catholic Church or Martin Luther or Calvin or any of your fellow Christians on this forum?

Curious Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you Prayer Warrior.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide the men of the Catholic Church or Martin Luther or Calvin or any of your fellow Christians on this forum?

Curious Mary

Nope. Now you’re confusing me. I thought that’s what YOU were saying.

Edit: BTW, Marymog, how are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a long time. Did you have a nice Christmas?

 

[Marymog]

Nope. Now you’re confusing me. I thought that’s what YOU were saying.

Edit: BTW, Marymog, how are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a long time. Did you have a nice Christmas?

Thank you. I did have a nice Christmas. Time with the kids, good food, good presents and a 4 day vacation, which included the Sight and Sound theater, after Christmas. How was yours?

YOU SAID that the Holy Spirit guides YOU into the truth. Since YOUR truth is different then the aforementioned then that means the Holy Spirit DIDN'T guide the others to the Truth....only YOU. So....to ask it a different way..... do you believe that only YOU and not the aforementioned have been guided by the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I am saying that the Holy Spirit did not guide the aforementioned to the Truth. It only guides The Church to the Truth and it is The Church that decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector....just like Scripture says. I thought I made that clear in my post....but I guess I didn't.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you. I did have a nice Christmas. Time with the kids, good food, good presents and a 4 day vacation, which included the Sight and Sound theater, after Christmas. How was yours?

YOU SAID that the Holy Spirit guides YOU into the truth. Since YOUR truth is different then the aforementioned then that means the Holy Spirit DIDN'T guide the others to the Truth....only YOU. So....to ask it a different way..... do you believe that only YOU and not the aforementioned have been guided by the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I am saying that the Holy Spirit did not guide the aforementioned to the Truth. It only guides The Church to the Truth and it is The Church that decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector....just like Scripture says. I thought I made that clear in my post....but I guess I didn't.

I had a great Christmas, despite having the flu.

Of course I don't believe that the Holy Spirit only guides ME into truth. I didn't say that or imply it. Sorry, if I gave you that impression.

As far as different truths, I just don't know about that. I do know that we will know fully even as we are fully known--at some point, according to 1 Cor 13:12. I'm counting on it!

 

[Marymog]

..... despite having the flu.

 

[Marymog]

I had a great Christmas, despite having the flu.

Of course I don't believe that the Holy Spirit only guides me into truth. I didn't say that or imply it. Sorry, if I gave you that impression.

As far as different truths, I just don't know about that. I do know that we will know fully even as we are fully known--at some point, according to 1 Cor 13:12. I'm counting on it!

Thank you.

You have me confused. Since, by your own admittance, the Spirit does not guide ONLY you into the Truth then how do we know what the Truth is when your truth is different then someone else's? How can you say "That’s the CC’s interpretation of that verse" and then you give a different interpretation of the same verse and be confident that the Spirit guided you to the correct interpretation when you do not believe that the Spirit guides only YOU to the truth? Maybe, in that one interpretation, the Spirit guided the CC into the correct interpretation and not YOU?

I don't see how 1 Corinthians corresponds to the subject at hand.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you.

You have me confused. Since, by your own admittance, the Spirit does not guide ONLY you into the Truth then how do we know what the Truth is when your truth is different then someone else's? How can you say "That’s the CC’s interpretation of that verse" and then you give a different interpretation of the same verse and be confident that the Spirit guided you to the correct interpretation when you do not believe that the Spirit guides only YOU to the truth? Maybe, in that one interpretation, the Spirit guided the CC into the correct interpretation and not YOU?

I don't see how 1 Corinthians corresponds to the subject at hand.

Oh, my, there's seems to be a lot of confusion here, but God is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:23).... So, let me see if I can clear up any misunderstandings about what I believe.

1. I believe that absolute truth exists. I believe that this truth doesn't change and is not influenced by how we see it (or interpret it) and that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide the followers of Jesus Christ into all truth (John 16:13). I don't believe that any one Christian denomination has the total truth, but all legitimate denominations share basic Bible truths and emphasize different aspects of Bible doctrines....

2. I believe that as the followers, or disciples, of Jesus Christ, we CAN know the truth (John 8:32).

3. I believe that we will not understand ALL truth here in this life, but now we see in a "glass darkly." HOWEVER, there will come a time when we will know even as we are fully known (1 Cor 13:12)....

A while back, you and I went round and round about doctrine, so I don't see any point in debating this with you. But I hope that this answers your questions about my beliefs.

 

[Marymog]

Oh, my, there's seems to be a lot of confusion here, but God is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:23).... So, let me see if I can clear up any misunderstandings about what I believe.

1. I believe that absolute truth exists. I believe that this truth doesn't change and is not influenced by how we see it (or interpret it) and that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide the followers of Jesus Christ into all truth (John 16:13). I don't believe that any one Christian denomination has the total truth, but all legitimate denominations share basic Bible truths and emphasize different aspects of Bible doctrines....

2. I believe that as the followers, or disciples, of Jesus Christ, we CAN know the truth (John 8:32).

3. I believe that we will not understand ALL truth here in this life, but now we see in a "glass darkly." HOWEVER, there will come a time when we will know even as we are fully known (1 Cor 13:12)....

A while back, you and I went round and round about doctrine, so I don't see any point in debating this with you. But I hope that this answers your questions about my beliefs.

Thank you.

In point #1 you say that not any one denomination has the total truth. How can you know that unless YOU know what the truth is? Does that not make YOU the arbiter of truth? What is the criteria for a "legitimate denomination"? Who decides which ones are legitimate? In John 16:13 Christ was talking to his Apostles and his Apostles ONLY and told them that THEY would be guided by the Spirit into truth. And they were!!! :) If EVERY Christian was guided by the Spirit into the Truth then we would all agree with each other and there would not be any denominations. Matthew 18:17 says to take our differences to the Church and the Church (singular) is the final judge on what the truth is. You seem to believe that all churches have some version of the truth and not one (singular) Church has the truth. Scripture says opposite of that belief.

In point #2 you reference John 8:32 to support your theory. In vs 13 the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about his self witness and what he was teaching. In CONTEXT Jesus was telling the Jews in vs 32 if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. He was telling them don't listen to the Pharisees and if they continue to follow him that they will know (come to learn) the truth of which will set them free. He was not saying that as a disciple of His they (all Christians) would know all truths because they are being guided by the Spirit. You are cherry picking Scripture to fit your theory and taking two verses out of context and trying to make them compatible with each other when they are not.

1 Corinthians in point #3 has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

I agree. There is no point in debating this. You believe you know the Truth and everyone (denomination) has a portion of the Truth but no one knows the entire truth. I believe what Scripture says in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17.


Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you.

In point #1 you say that not any one denomination has the total truth. How can you know that unless YOU know what the truth is? Does that not make YOU the arbiter of truth? What is the criteria for a "legitimate denomination"? Who decides which ones are legitimate? In John 16:13 Christ was talking to his Apostles and his Apostles ONLY and told them that THEY would be guided by the Spirit into truth. And they were!!! :) If EVERY Christian was guided by the Spirit into the Truth then we would all agree with each other and there would not be any denominations. Matthew 18:17 says to take our differences to the Church and the Church (singular) is the final judge on what the truth is. You seem to believe that all churches have some version of the truth and not one (singular) Church has the truth. Scripture says opposite of that belief.

In point #2 you reference John 8:32 to support your theory. In vs 13 the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about his self witness and what he was teaching. In CONTEXT Jesus was telling the Jews in vs 32 if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. He was telling them don't listen to the Pharisees and if they continue to follow him that they will know (come to learn) the truth of which will set them free. He was not saying that as a disciple of His they (all Christians) would know all truths because they are being guided by the Spirit. You are cherry picking Scripture to fit your theory and taking two verses out of context and trying to make them compatible with each other when they are not.

1 Corinthians in point #3 has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

I agree. There is no point in debating this. You believe you know the Truth and everyone (denomination) has a portion of the Truth but no one knows the entire truth. I believe what Scripture says in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17.


Mary

What you and I will never agree on, Mary, is your belief that the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH possessing THE TRUTH.... You and I debated this idea in a different thread. This thread was set up to debate Mormonism.

 

[Marymog]

What you and I will never agree on, Mary, is your belief that the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH possessing THE TRUTH.... You and I debated this idea in a different thread. This thread was set up to debate Mormonism.

Thank you.

If the CC is not The Church spoken of in Scripture then which Church is?

Since i believe the CC is the Church spoken of in Scripture then that means the Mormon church and your church is not sooooo in effect we are debating Mormonism "truth" and your "truth". :)

But I get the gist of what you are saying soooo getting back to the topic of Mormonism.....

I think we can both agree that the Mormon "truth" is not true? I have come to that conclusion because what they believe is not what The Church teaches.

Why do you believe that the Mormon truth is not true?

Mary