As usual, I only understood half or less of what you're saying here.
Who is the "she" in the second paragraph? Antecedent, please.
What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor
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Who is the "she" in the second paragraph? Antecedent, please.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I see. Okay, well maybe you should wait and watch the weather after you've posted, lol.
It doesn't matter, really. It's late and my brain is beginning to feel fried. That's when I start making stupid mistakes. I don't take things out of context on purpose, and this can be subjective, depending on what you see as the context. Would you agree?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Context...what is going on as history moves....The ECF's only have so much access to scriptures....a large assortment of writings that are scattered. The choice of books are still in the running during the first few centuries......the Bible is not bound together as a book until Constantine. What I am saying is that you are both smart people......talk straight.
They also quote the the books at times Catholics left in but Protestants omit. Some may or may not be quoting from the New Testament. It's hard to say who possessed which books when. The point is that the early church did not depend on "Bibles" the way current churches do. They survived somehow.
Of course, they're Greek philosophical terms. She seems to conflate things, blurring concepts and rolling several things into the same thing.
An answer that confounds logic.
Could Jesus have said this to Satan, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jesus"?
Why then does the Law of Moses say people will live if they keep the commandments?
I would have thought you would have been taught this in the classes you took. That's how the books were classified. Look it up.
While Genesis doesn't contain many "laws," it does contain one or more.
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
If he converts to Judaism, I guess; or if he believes Gentiles are obliged to keep the law.
What Paul is "trying" to say here is that if people love each other, they automatically keep the law of Moses by the spirit now, not by the letter.
A bold assumption. You cannot describe a "chair" perfectly even with thousands of words. What we have in the way of words is meant to guide us to the truth of the matter. If I say you may sit on that chair and point at it, you will not know what I mean unless you look around. It could be a blue chair or a red one. It could be wood or cushioned.
Moses did his job, acting as an intermediary for people who did not want to hear the Voice of God for themselves. They got written words then. They did not get the Living Word.
Anyone can hear the Living Word. The written Torah is only an expression of the Eternal Law, adjusted for the culture of the time.
Was Timothy reading out of books?
You seem to follow the Catholic Church on which books are and which aren't considered "Scripture."
Yeah, well, doesn't God defy man's logic?? His thoughts are higher than ours, but the Holy Spirit gives us understanding.
Jesus said that He is the truth, but we can't always insert His name where we say the word truth, can we? But that doesn't mean that He was wrong in saying that He IS the truth.
Your question is not clear based on my comment that you quoted. I said that the law cannot make us righteous.
As far as giving us life, eternal life is in the blood, only in the blood of Jesus. Obeying God's OT laws did extend the people's temporal lives. I mean, they didn't get stoned to death, for one thing, if they obeyed certain laws. The dietary and health laws helped them stay healthier.
But the law could NOT give them eternal life, and the law cannot give abundant life, which only comes through knowing God through faith in Jesus Christ (i.e. having a relationship with Him). And this is the whole point of Christianity--KNOWING HIM and LOVING HIM. We focus our eyes on Him, not on the law. He guides us and convicts us through the Holy Spirit sent to indwell us.
This is why Jesus summed up the law AND the prophets in two simple commandments--love God and love others as ourselves. We don't need the hundreds of laws given to Israel. We need HIM (God Himself), living in us and through us. And the only way to receive Him and know Him is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ--the finished work of the cross.
It's so simple even a child can understand it, but we like to muck up the works and make things complicated. Must be the sin nature that thinks something that is so good has to be complex. Like the guy who went to the prophet Elisha with a skin disease and was told to dip in the river seven times to be healed. The guy wasn't going to do it because it was too easy (2 Kings 5).
Or think about the Garden. God's ONE negative command to Adam was so simple. Do not eat from the tree in the middle of the Garden. The devil comes along and complicates God's simple command with his forked tongue.
I was taught that Leviticus is the book of the law.
What he's "trying" to say? LOL! I guess you think you could do better. Perhaps if you don't understand Paul, the fault lies with your lack of understanding, not an inability on Paul's part.
You compare understanding the TRUTH to describing a chair??
Why would God fall short in giving us what we need in His written Word?? If I were writing a book (and I have written a few), I wouldn't leave out essential information. And I'm just a stupid woman. ;)
But yet, you say that the Torah is perfect, but the rest of the Bible is not? The NT is all about the Living Word--encapsulated in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course, we know that He IS the Living Word expressed through His written Word.
I'll have to finish this later. I have to get ready for work right now. It's been fun. :)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
@Giuliano @Prayer Warrior
Statements made….thoughts expressed....thank you....
*The point is that the early church did not depend on "Bibles" the way current churches do. They survived somehow.
*One thing that seems certain is that the early Church Fathers almost never cited any books of the New Testament when writing. They quoted almost exclusively from the Old Testament. That tells me they did consider them of equal authority.
I have responded to this and the statement that the ECF’s quoted mostly the OT. Although they quoted the OT, they mostly were writing about Christianity. When you say “oral tradition” some are offended but before it became written letters, both the OT and NT was passed on by oral tradition, until written. At the time the ECF's did not have many of the NT scripture to quote
*Why then does the Law of Moses say people will live if they keep the commandments?
There is about 72 of these “Obey my commandments” scriptures in OT. None promise heaven, their only rewards was during their lives. All who died went to Sheol…..unless they owned a chariot of fire. All rewards were experienced during their lives. Here are just a few....
Deuteronomy 6:1-2
"Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.
Deuteronomy 8:1
All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers.
Deuteronomy 28:13
The LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,
Leviticus 25:18
'You shall thus observe My statutes and keep My judgments, so as to carry them out, that you may live securely on the land.
Leviticus 26:3
If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out, 4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
1st Kings 3:14
If you walk in My ways, keeping My statutes and commandments, as your father David walked, then I will prolong your days.”
*He must not have explained it that well to begin with, when he was with them, right? And he still didn't explain it that well in that book. You are still confused.
Romans 2:14-16-- So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.
This is not uncommon of Paul. The early church was very fond of Peter and John, but Paul had a tendency to confuse them. It is more so the subject matter than Paul being confusing. He was defining and explaining the most complicated aspects of salvation. Not that he did not have his own issues with synchronicity, at times he rambled, he did some self reflection on himself and the Jews. But like most Christian writings, to understand them you have to step back and take in the big picture. What was Paul trying to accomplish? What were his challenges, distractors, and confrontations? What was the overall message of his writings.
*Paul recognized the purpose of the Mosaic Law….its of God, its of good, but…..
*David said that the law was "perfect." Paul said that the law was "good." The Mosaic law was perfect and good for its main intended purpose--as a tutor or guardian to lead people to Christ.
2nd Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
Galatians 5:3&4
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:12
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”
The Mosaic Law was of God, but produced behavior and character that we would not like in Christianity. Lead us to Christ? Ok. Proved that we needed Christ...Amen.
Mostly PrayerWarrior statements
*So?? You didn't answer my question. How can Genesis be called "the Law"?
*I was taught that Leviticus is the book of the law.
*So?? You didn't answer my question. How can Genesis be called "the Law"?
*I don't agree that the law is the Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible. How is Genesis the law?? The Mosaic law is outlined mostly in Leviticus, with some in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which are PART of the Torah.
Torah Meaning
Torah literally means "teaching," and there are two other meanings that can be derived from it. In a strict sense, Torah refers to the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. And certainly considered the books of Law...but not all Mosaic Law, not all Mosaic commandments.
Mosaic Laws could not occur until Exodus, but…..
Genesis establishes the Law of sacrifice.
The first commandment of God….Don’t eat of the tree……
The second commandment of God was…..Be fruitful and multiply. Which first occurs in Eden and then throughout the OT, This is the only commandment that God repeated over and over again. It was always included in His promises to His champions. But the meaning of this is usually overlooked, disregarded, or ignored by Christians… reasons, the negative views of sex and women in Christianity. The lack of scriptural support in the NT for marriage, romance, and family. Marriage is only given as a concession in the NT. There is a section of Christian history that considered sex, married or unmarried as demonic.
*People whose minds are clouded by misunderstanding what Paul wrote read that to mean Jesus destroyed the law by fulfilling it. It's laughable.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In this verse, Jesus obviously isn't only talking about the law. He said that He fulfilled the law and the prophets as well. How do you explain this in light of your theory that only the Torah was "the Word of God"?
Mostly agree...
The Mosaic Law is eternal to the point of all things being accomplished. It is the Law of the Covenant between God and Israel. Most of the Jews are still in that Covenant and under that Law…Christ did not abolish it or the Old Covenant, He fulfilled it, and it is still in effect for all that are still in the Old Covenant….the Jews.
But that Law is not in the New Covenant, not part of Christianity. Christians are not under the Law and there is a school of thought that those that observe the Law and abide in it, no longer abide in the New Covenant.
Christ did not abolish the Law or the Old Covenant, the Jews are still under both.
None of which we want, none of it! The spirit of the Law, the spirit, that is the worst of it all. What is the spirit of selling our daughters as sex slaves? Do we have multiple wives and concubines? Do we kill all that breaths and not forget the babies and save the virgins for ourselves. What kind of spirit is that!? That is part of the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic Law cannot be changed or subdivided. That ministry of death, that ministry of condemnation, that ministry of cruelty, that ministry that did not lead to salvation...certainly showed the need for Christ!
Statements made….thoughts expressed....thank you....
*The point is that the early church did not depend on "Bibles" the way current churches do. They survived somehow.
*One thing that seems certain is that the early Church Fathers almost never cited any books of the New Testament when writing. They quoted almost exclusively from the Old Testament. That tells me they did consider them of equal authority.
I have responded to this and the statement that the ECF’s quoted mostly the OT. Although they quoted the OT, they mostly were writing about Christianity. When you say “oral tradition” some are offended but before it became written letters, both the OT and NT was passed on by oral tradition, until written. At the time the ECF's did not have many of the NT scripture to quote
*Why then does the Law of Moses say people will live if they keep the commandments?
There is about 72 of these “Obey my commandments” scriptures in OT. None promise heaven, their only rewards was during their lives. All who died went to Sheol…..unless they owned a chariot of fire. All rewards were experienced during their lives. Here are just a few....
Deuteronomy 6:1-2
"Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.
Deuteronomy 8:1
All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers.
Deuteronomy 28:13
The LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,
Leviticus 25:18
'You shall thus observe My statutes and keep My judgments, so as to carry them out, that you may live securely on the land.
Leviticus 26:3
If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out, 4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
1st Kings 3:14
If you walk in My ways, keeping My statutes and commandments, as your father David walked, then I will prolong your days.”
*He must not have explained it that well to begin with, when he was with them, right? And he still didn't explain it that well in that book. You are still confused.
Romans 2:14-16-- So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.
This is not uncommon of Paul. The early church was very fond of Peter and John, but Paul had a tendency to confuse them. It is more so the subject matter than Paul being confusing. He was defining and explaining the most complicated aspects of salvation. Not that he did not have his own issues with synchronicity, at times he rambled, he did some self reflection on himself and the Jews. But like most Christian writings, to understand them you have to step back and take in the big picture. What was Paul trying to accomplish? What were his challenges, distractors, and confrontations? What was the overall message of his writings.
*Paul recognized the purpose of the Mosaic Law….its of God, its of good, but…..
*David said that the law was "perfect." Paul said that the law was "good." The Mosaic law was perfect and good for its main intended purpose--as a tutor or guardian to lead people to Christ.
2nd Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
Galatians 5:3&4
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:12
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”
The Mosaic Law was of God, but produced behavior and character that we would not like in Christianity. Lead us to Christ? Ok. Proved that we needed Christ...Amen.
Mostly PrayerWarrior statements
*So?? You didn't answer my question. How can Genesis be called "the Law"?
*I was taught that Leviticus is the book of the law.
*So?? You didn't answer my question. How can Genesis be called "the Law"?
*I don't agree that the law is the Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible. How is Genesis the law?? The Mosaic law is outlined mostly in Leviticus, with some in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which are PART of the Torah.
Torah Meaning
Torah literally means "teaching," and there are two other meanings that can be derived from it. In a strict sense, Torah refers to the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. And certainly considered the books of Law...but not all Mosaic Law, not all Mosaic commandments.
Mosaic Laws could not occur until Exodus, but…..
Genesis establishes the Law of sacrifice.
The first commandment of God….Don’t eat of the tree……
The second commandment of God was…..Be fruitful and multiply. Which first occurs in Eden and then throughout the OT, This is the only commandment that God repeated over and over again. It was always included in His promises to His champions. But the meaning of this is usually overlooked, disregarded, or ignored by Christians… reasons, the negative views of sex and women in Christianity. The lack of scriptural support in the NT for marriage, romance, and family. Marriage is only given as a concession in the NT. There is a section of Christian history that considered sex, married or unmarried as demonic.
*People whose minds are clouded by misunderstanding what Paul wrote read that to mean Jesus destroyed the law by fulfilling it. It's laughable.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In this verse, Jesus obviously isn't only talking about the law. He said that He fulfilled the law and the prophets as well. How do you explain this in light of your theory that only the Torah was "the Word of God"?
Mostly agree...
The Mosaic Law is eternal to the point of all things being accomplished. It is the Law of the Covenant between God and Israel. Most of the Jews are still in that Covenant and under that Law…Christ did not abolish it or the Old Covenant, He fulfilled it, and it is still in effect for all that are still in the Old Covenant….the Jews.
But that Law is not in the New Covenant, not part of Christianity. Christians are not under the Law and there is a school of thought that those that observe the Law and abide in it, no longer abide in the New Covenant.
Christ did not abolish the Law or the Old Covenant, the Jews are still under both.
None of which we want, none of it! The spirit of the Law, the spirit, that is the worst of it all. What is the spirit of selling our daughters as sex slaves? Do we have multiple wives and concubines? Do we kill all that breaths and not forget the babies and save the virgins for ourselves. What kind of spirit is that!? That is part of the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic Law cannot be changed or subdivided. That ministry of death, that ministry of condemnation, that ministry of cruelty, that ministry that did not lead to salvation...certainly showed the need for Christ!
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
@Prayer Warrior @Giuliano
*I don't believe that OT prophets usually went into a trance when the Spirit moved on them.
That is why it takes a little history to understand the scriptures. It is called altered states or ecstasy. Ever heard of the whirling prophets of Yahweh?
*I have heard some Protestants say that they accept the Book of Enoch. Bible publishers that stick with the 66 have their reasons. If you want to read the Apocrypha, it's widely available.
As of right now we do not seem to have the true book of Enoch. But that may change because they are finding bits and pieces of it at Qumran. Beyond that what we have is what we got. There are several books referenced in the NT that we do not have now.
*2nd Tim 3:16-- All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,...
A very popular verse, generally not understood. Again, perspective and motion…..Paul, and Peter, and James are writing letters and epistles in the biblical era….but there is no indication that they thought they were writing scriptures. 2nd timothy 3:16 is referring to earlier writings, mostly OT and as time went on after the close of the Bible and the Gospels came out and were known, the Gospels were eventually considered scripture, but the other writings were still considered religious writings…. overall….once the Bible was assembled after 325 ad…everything in the Bible was considered scriptures.
PrayerWarrior 2:0 Could Jesus have said this to Satan, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jesus"? Responding in humor.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’” Matthew is referring to God the Father….referencing Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
*love God and love others as ourselves.
Referencing another popular scripture which of course references the OT.
Deuteronomy 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
Context and motion...U.S. Constitution…All men are created equal….not speaking of women and in motion meant middle-aged white men. Love your neighbor here was taken as love your Hebrew neighbor. Loving God was a wonderful thing to say, but the Hebrew / Israelite religion was about God-fearing, and that expression is repeated in the scriptures. Christ was raising the bar, and expanding its understanding. The Jews certainly did not understand this, and Christianity had issues issues with it throughout history because of the negative teaching of respecting others. It is hard to love if you think it is bad to respect one another, much less yourself…..it took Christian sons nearly 2000 years to respect their own mothers.
*Why would God fall short in giving us what we need in His written Word?? If I were writing a book (and I have written a few), I wouldn't leave out essential information. And I'm just a stupid woman.
First off I dare anyone to call you stupid! Why wasn’t everything revealed? My first guess is understanding. Christ spoke and the Apostles struggled to understand. Remembering things you do not understand is harder than remembering things that you do understand. Beyond that....
John 16:12
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
*I don't believe that OT prophets usually went into a trance when the Spirit moved on them.
That is why it takes a little history to understand the scriptures. It is called altered states or ecstasy. Ever heard of the whirling prophets of Yahweh?
*I have heard some Protestants say that they accept the Book of Enoch. Bible publishers that stick with the 66 have their reasons. If you want to read the Apocrypha, it's widely available.
As of right now we do not seem to have the true book of Enoch. But that may change because they are finding bits and pieces of it at Qumran. Beyond that what we have is what we got. There are several books referenced in the NT that we do not have now.
*2nd Tim 3:16-- All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,...
A very popular verse, generally not understood. Again, perspective and motion…..Paul, and Peter, and James are writing letters and epistles in the biblical era….but there is no indication that they thought they were writing scriptures. 2nd timothy 3:16 is referring to earlier writings, mostly OT and as time went on after the close of the Bible and the Gospels came out and were known, the Gospels were eventually considered scripture, but the other writings were still considered religious writings…. overall….once the Bible was assembled after 325 ad…everything in the Bible was considered scriptures.
PrayerWarrior 2:0 Could Jesus have said this to Satan, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jesus"? Responding in humor.
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’” Matthew is referring to God the Father….referencing Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
*love God and love others as ourselves.
Referencing another popular scripture which of course references the OT.
Deuteronomy 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
Context and motion...U.S. Constitution…All men are created equal….not speaking of women and in motion meant middle-aged white men. Love your neighbor here was taken as love your Hebrew neighbor. Loving God was a wonderful thing to say, but the Hebrew / Israelite religion was about God-fearing, and that expression is repeated in the scriptures. Christ was raising the bar, and expanding its understanding. The Jews certainly did not understand this, and Christianity had issues issues with it throughout history because of the negative teaching of respecting others. It is hard to love if you think it is bad to respect one another, much less yourself…..it took Christian sons nearly 2000 years to respect their own mothers.
*Why would God fall short in giving us what we need in His written Word?? If I were writing a book (and I have written a few), I wouldn't leave out essential information. And I'm just a stupid woman.
First off I dare anyone to call you stupid! Why wasn’t everything revealed? My first guess is understanding. Christ spoke and the Apostles struggled to understand. Remembering things you do not understand is harder than remembering things that you do understand. Beyond that....
John 16:12
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
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We really don't know what was quoted orally early on. It could be that the words of Jesus were passed along orally. Of course, all of the epistles were initially written, so I'm not sure how this could be part of the oral tradition only. It could be that these letters to the churches were copied like the scribes copied the Torah....
I don't believe you are correct about what the apostles thought about their writings. Consider what Paul said:
1 Thes. 2:13--This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the message about God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the message of God, which also works effectively in you believers.
I also think when we get a bit overly enthusiastic about "dying on the hill" of defending an exact rendering of any particular Biblical account.... it might be advisable to remember the variances in the different Apostles' telling of identical occurrences. Especially as it is so obvious in the Gospels.
All these "Oral Traditions" had to have, by their very nature, undergone slightly, and even vastly, differing recountings (maybe hundreds) before someone finally wrote them down somewhere.
All these "Oral Traditions" had to have, by their very nature, undergone slightly, and even vastly, differing recountings (maybe hundreds) before someone finally wrote them down somewhere.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
*We really don't know what was quoted orally early on
Are you talking of the Old Testament or New Testament?
*Of course, all of the epistles were initially written, so I'm not sure how this could be part of the oral tradition only.
Are you thinking of a printing press a UPS delivery, or an ad in the Mediterranean newspaper? There writings went to churches, not general distribution. From where they found them it appears they were kept in the custody of the churches. Most of the time they are probably reciting from memory depending on when the Gospels were written and then the time to reproduce and distribute to churches.
Paul’s writings were available before the Gospels were written, much less distributed. Christ’s sayings existed as oral traditions, before the Gospels were written. People being told what Christ said by the Apostles. There is a meaning to the term oral tradition and it is not negative, it is method of preserving and instruction. There is no Bible in the early period. The canon had not been set. There are several texts available.
*It could be that these letters to the churches were copied like the scribes copied the Torah....
No one owned a Torah. They were kept in the holy of holies, behind a veil. So it did not matter how many copies they made. The Torah was not video taped as the events happened. They were kept in memory as an oral tradition….the telling of stories for us laymen. And that is how the Gospels were preserved before they were written down. All relying on the memory of the Apostles.
*I don't believe you are correct about what the apostles thought about their writings.
True that the apostles thought that their writings were important, the message of the Good News, but they would not dare say they were scriptures, and they didn’t.
GH, you speak with such authority as though you KNOW these things, almost as if you were there! But you're not THAT old.
Did you read the scripture I quoted?? Paul said that His message was not a "human message," but was "the message of God," i.e. God's Word.
1 Thes. 2:13--This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the message about God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the message of God, which also works effectively in you believers.
There's one big factor you need to keep in mind. It was the Holy Spirit who inspired the writers of the gospels, and it was the Holy Spirit who brought to mind the things that Jesus said.... And why would this not apply to the inspired things that the apostles said and wrote as well? So, the canon did not depend on men's ability to remember what was said or written because the Holy Spirit brought these things to their minds.
John 14:25-26--“I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit — the Father will send Him in My name — will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
GH, you speak with such authority as though you KNOW these things, almost as if you were there! But you're not THAT old.
Did you read the scripture I quoted?? Paul said that His message was not a "human message," but was "the message of God," i.e. God's Word.
1 Thes. 2:13--This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the message about God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the message of God, which also works effectively in you believers.
There's one big factor you need to keep in mind. It was the Holy Spirit who inspired the writers of the gospels, and it was the Holy Spirit who brought to mind the things that Jesus said.... And why would this not apply to the inspired things that the apostles said and wrote as well? So, the canon did not depend on men's ability to remember what was said or written because the Holy Spirit brought these things to their minds.
John 14:25-26--“I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit — the Father will send Him in My name — will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
.
*GH, you speak with such authority as though you KNOW these things, almost as if you were there! But you're not THAT old.
Hey I am old! And smarter than your average bear!
*Did you read the scripture I quoted?? Paul said that His message was not a "human message," but was "the message of God," i.e. God's Word.
Yea, I correspond with you…to not read what you say. Lol
Scripture had a meaning in the time period. History….history. Again, no doubt they thought what they were writing was of God…no doubt. But they would have made nothing but enemies if they said they were writing scriptures. [[And Peter said, “Excuse me, I must go into my house and continue writing scripture. And then Peter was killed shortly after that!]] That is how it would go.
*There's one big factor you need to keep in mind. It was the Holy Spirit who inspired the writers of the gospels, and it was the Holy Spirit who brought to mind the things that Jesus said.... And why would this not apply to the inspired things that the apostles said and wrote as well? So, the canon did not depend on men's ability to remember what was said or written because the Holy Spirit brought these things to their minds.
I know that God works in mysterious ways….in the spirit of the Good News, certainly. The same was true of the OT. They knew how the OT was preserved and written, and the scripture you provide is almost a blessing. "May your memory run true." They all know the difficulties and limitations...Jewish customs were to write the Torah by memory....they knew....
As far as dictation, to many variants in the telling of the stories, OT and NT. Still I believe in the participation of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in the biblical narrative. Just the survival of the scriptures is proof of that. But mind control, I am not into that. But…but…but I respect your beliefs…..and I do not…do not think you are wrong in thinking that.
<different tangent than Grailhunter's discussion>
@Prayer Warrior , hypothetically, if the Bible has a misspelling, do you think it make it's message any less true? Does it in any way hamper God's ability to convey His message to a seeker?
@Prayer Warrior , hypothetically, if the Bible has a misspelling, do you think it make it's message any less true? Does it in any way hamper God's ability to convey His message to a seeker?
Interesting thought. My answer is no because the meaning is not changed.
However, I would add that legitimate Bible publishers are much too careful to let this happen because they know they're dealing with God's Word, not just another book.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
legitimate Bible publishers are much too careful to let this happen because they know they're dealing with God's Word, not just another book.
You do know that is joke...right!
You do know that is joke...right!
Nope, no joke! Why would this be a joke, GH??
You don't think that those who translate and publish the Bible can be as serious about God's Word as the scribes were?? So, Christians, who are indwelled by God the Spirit, can't do as good a job as the OT scribes? Really???
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Nope, no joke! Why would this be a joke, GH??
You don't think that those who translate and publish the Bible can be as serious about God's Word as the scribes were?? So, Christians, who are indwelled by God the Spirit, can't do as good a job as the OT scribes? Really???
I am sure that the modern publishers do better than the KJV. If by chance you go to a yard sale and find one of the Adulterer's Bibles, or the Vinegar Bible, or the Murmurer's Bible, or the Wife hater's Bibles, Drinker's Bible etc...they are very valuable. And the companies that published them were criminally charged. They all thought it was important, but the human touch is the touch of errors..
Yeah, well those don't sound too legitimate to me. You keep conflating men's stupidity and God's sovereignty.
