What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

This problem with communication is NOT just with Mormons. Catholics have a similar problem and likely others. I usually understand the Catholics as was once one of them, but they also use a lot a words and phrases that other Christian believers do not. This forum is a good teacher if there is enough participation by those using unusual language. Just wait until you see the language of our friend @bbyrd009 . He was suspended for a while, but he should be back just now. Learning to understand him may require an interpreter and he writes in English. The problem will be in finding a capable interpreter.

I agree, Amadeus. I was just thinking about what you're saying concerning some of the terms Catholics use.

 

[Grailhunter]

The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

Mormonism calls its spirit the “Holy Ghost.” It’s not the same as the eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, Holy Spirit of Truth from the Bible. The LDS Holy Ghost is described in the church manual for new members, Gospel Principles, as “a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at one time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.”(55) The Holy Ghost of Mormonism can be in only one place, but the Holy Spirit of the Bible is all places at once (Ps. 139:7 – 10). The Doctrine and Covenants says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false” (D&C 130:3). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit of Truth “lives in you” (1 Cor. 3:16 NIV 1984). As these conflicting passages demonstrate, they’re not the same spirit.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 323-324). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Footnotes:

55. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Principles (1997), 37.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 366). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Yeap, I see what you are saying. A spirit.......that has the form and likeness of a man. Knowing what I know about the Mormons I am going to say that this is a clarification that the Holy Spirit.....Holy Ghost is not poltergeist, in like form. Still, Jane may be able to elaborate on this better. There are many things about Mormon beliefs that you could find issue with, that is just a fact.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yeap, I see what you are saying. A spirit.......that has the form and likeness of a man. Knowing what I know about the Mormons I am going to say that this is a clarification that the Holy Spirit.....Holy Ghost is not poltergeist, in like form. Still, Jane may be able to elaborate on this better. There are many things about Mormon beliefs that you could find issue with, that is just a fact.

LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in one God, same as Christians which subscribe to the Athanasian Creed. The difference between the two beliefs is the *how* three are one: LDS Christians believing through unity and Athanasian Christians through consubstantiality.

Christians which subscribe to the Athanasian Creed and LDS Christians both believe that the Holy Spirit/Ghost is a spirit, laking a body.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

There was some confusion about where and what Lynn Wilder taught. Here are some excerpts from her book that explain this.

Mormonism pervaded every part of life in Utah. Micah [author's son] loved that everyone, absolutely everyone, at his middle school went to seminary. Ninth grade is the first year of the church’s four-year seminary program. Seminary is the religion class that my husband and I had taught in the early morning in Indiana. The curriculum rotates every four years: (1) Old Testament (including the Mormon books Moses and Abraham, from the Pearl of Great Price), (2) New Testament, (3) Book of Mormon, and (4) Doctrine and Covenants / Church History.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 107). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.


This is from her bio:

During more than a decade as a professor and researcher, and 20 years as a public school teacher, she has produced more than 50 scholarly publications, written four books, and mentored hundreds of students. Her experience, passion, and expertise lie in how to advance the academic and social-emotional success of “marginalized” students (in the book she calls them the world’s “throwaways”) who struggle in school. Once tenured faculty at Mormon Church owned and operated Brigham Young University (BYU), Dr. Wilder resigned from BYU and then from the LDS Church in 2008 when she experienced a crisis of faith.​

Source: https://unveilinggracethebook.com/files/Press_Materials/Unveiling_Grace_Wilder_Bio_FINAL.pdf

​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Some of you have been critical that I would post the testimony of a former Mormon (even though she was a devout Mormon for 30 years...sigh). Of course, that's what this thread is all about--her testimony. :)

As I've tended this thread, I've spent more time (than I had previously spent) looking into official LDS documents, etc. I found the following quote from what appears to be the official LDS website:

The Book of Mormon, combined with the Spirit, is your most powerful resource in conversion. It provides powerful evidence for the divinity of Christ. It is also proof of the Restoration through the Prophet Joseph Smith. An essential part of conversion is receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. As a missionary, you must first have a personal testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. This testimony can lead to a deep and abiding faith in the power of the Book of Mormon during the conversion process. Have confidence that the Holy Ghost will testify to anyone who reads and ponders the Book of Mormon and asks God if it is true with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ. This witness of the Holy Ghost should be a central focus of your teaching.​

The Book of Mormon Is the Keystone of Our Religion​

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the Book of Mormon is “the keystone of our religion” (introduction to the Book of Mormon). On another occasion he stated: “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” (Minutes and Discourse, 21 April 1834, Church History Library, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City).​

An arch is a strong architectural structure made from wedge-shaped pieces that lean against each other. The middle piece, or keystone, is usually larger than the other wedges and locks the other stones in place. When Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon “the keystone of our religion,” he taught that the Book of Mormon holds our religion together. President Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone in at least three ways:​

Witness of Christ. “The Book of Mormon is the keystone in our witness of Jesus Christ, who is Himself the cornerstone of everything we do. It bears witness of His reality with power and clarity.”​

Fulness of doctrine. “The Lord Himself has stated that the Book of Mormon contains the ‘fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.’ (Doctrine and Covenants 20:9[; 27:5].) … In the Book of Mormon we will find the fulness of [the doctrine] required for our salvation. And [it is] taught plainly and simply so that even children can learn the ways of salvation and exaltation.”​

Foundation of testimony. “Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it” (A Witness and a Warning [1988], 18–19).​

The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on the earth (see introduction to the Book of Mormon). It teaches the doctrine of Christ plainly, especially in the lessons you teach people. Use it as your main source for teaching the restored gospel. The following are examples of truths taught plainly in the Book of Mormon that you will teach to people.

Source: 5: What Is the Role of the Book of Mormon?
​

If I had read this prior to reading Lynn Wilders's book, some of these terms (such as exaltation) would not have made any sense to me at all. But Lynn explained Mormon lingo so clearly. This is one of the main reasons I decided to post her testimony.

​

 

[Grailhunter]

Some of you have been critical that I would post the testimony of a former Mormon (even though she was a devout Mormon for 30 years...sigh). Of course, that's what this thread is all about--her testimony. :)

As I've tended this thread, I've spent more time (than I had previously spent) looking into official LDS documents, etc. I found the following quote from what appears to be the official LDS website:

The Book of Mormon, combined with the Spirit, is your most powerful resource in conversion. It provides powerful evidence for the divinity of Christ. It is also proof of the Restoration through the Prophet Joseph Smith. An essential part of conversion is receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. As a missionary, you must first have a personal testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. This testimony can lead to a deep and abiding faith in the power of the Book of Mormon during the conversion process. Have confidence that the Holy Ghost will testify to anyone who reads and ponders the Book of Mormon and asks God if it is true with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ. This witness of the Holy Ghost should be a central focus of your teaching.​

The Book of Mormon Is the Keystone of Our Religion​

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the Book of Mormon is “the keystone of our religion” (introduction to the Book of Mormon). On another occasion he stated: “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” (Minutes and Discourse, 21 April 1834, Church History Library, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City).​

An arch is a strong architectural structure made from wedge-shaped pieces that lean against each other. The middle piece, or keystone, is usually larger than the other wedges and locks the other stones in place. When Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon “the keystone of our religion,” he taught that the Book of Mormon holds our religion together. President Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone in at least three ways:​

Witness of Christ. “The Book of Mormon is the keystone in our witness of Jesus Christ, who is Himself the cornerstone of everything we do. It bears witness of His reality with power and clarity.”​

Fulness of doctrine. “The Lord Himself has stated that the Book of Mormon contains the ‘fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.’ (Doctrine and Covenants 20:9[; 27:5].) … In the Book of Mormon we will find the fulness of [the doctrine] required for our salvation. And [it is] taught plainly and simply so that even children can learn the ways of salvation and exaltation.”​

Foundation of testimony. “Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it” (A Witness and a Warning [1988], 18–19).​

The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on the earth (see introduction to the Book of Mormon). It teaches the doctrine of Christ plainly, especially in the lessons you teach people. Use it as your main source for teaching the restored gospel. The following are examples of truths taught plainly in the Book of Mormon that you will teach to people.

Source: 5: What Is the Role of the Book of Mormon?
​

If I had read this prior to reading Lynn Wilders's book, some of these terms (such as exaltation) would not have made any sense to me at all. But Lynn explained Mormon lingo so clearly. This is one of the main reasons I decided to post her testimony.

​

So what do you take exception to...other than it is not your religion. They consider Joseph Smith a prophet. He started the religion because he believed all other religions were wrong. Pretty much the same reason the Protestants started their religions, except the Mormons believe there were revelations. Paul's experience was a revelation of sorts. Can you imagine how the Jewish-Christians took it, that the religion was turning to their own worst enemy, Pagans.....us! Could they understand...How could they? God hated the Pagans in the Old Testament. The kill all that breaths, thing. Change is always hard on some.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

So what do you take exception to...other than it is not your religion. They consider Joseph Smith a prophet. He started the religion because he believed all other religions were wrong. Pretty much the same reason the Protestants started their religions, except the Mormons believe there were revelations. Paul's experience was a revelation of sorts. Can you imagine how the Jewish-Christians took it, that the religion was turning to their own worst enemy, Pagans.....us! Could they understand...How could they? God hated the Pagans in the Old Testament. The kill all that breaths, thing. Change is always hard on some.

Uh, Grailhunter, perhaps you may want to try asking one or two questions, three at the most. When you bombard me like this, I have a hard time processing what you're saying, much less answering your questions. AND I get the feeling that your questions are rhetorical in nature, meaning that you really don't want answers from me.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having a hard time understanding my objections to the doctrines of Mormonism.;)
Do you believe that the Bible is THE written word of God? Do you believe in absolute truth and that God conveys this truth through His written word?

If your answer to these questions is no, then I can see why you don't understand where I'm coming from. Please don't go into the stuff about fundamentalism. I don't care what anyone calls it when I stand on God's written word and use it as THE measure for truth. As I have said before, been doing this for over 40 years, and it has served me very well in life.

Please hear what I'm saying. Any revelation ever given that was truly from God does not contradict His written word, the Bible. God doesn't contradict Himself! Truth NEVER contradicts truth! (Any SEEMING contradiction would be considered a dichotomy.)

The Book of Mormon contradicts God's written word in BIG ways. The revelations of Joseph Smith contradict God's written word.

God did not allow His written word to become corrupted. Any religion that makes this claim is false, not just Mormonism. Did you know that Muslims make the false claim that the written word of God has been corrupted and cannot be trusted? And yet both of these religions include info from the Bible in their scriptures. Go figure!

You might say, doesn't the New Testament contradict the Old Testament? No, it doesn't. From Genesis on, the Old Testament points to the future Messiah. The New Testament is THE New Covenant with this Messiah. It is a perfect covenant based on the perfect sacrifice of this Messiah Jesus Christ that was made once for all time. Jesus Christ finished the work that is the foundation of this New Covenant. Jesus Christ ALONE is the foundation.

There is no NEWER Covenant that God has made with man! There is no "restored" gospel!

As you can see, I am very passionate about this down to the core of my being! And I make no apologies for this passion.

Any further questions? :)

 

[Grailhunter]

Uh, Grailhunter, perhaps you may want to try asking one or two questions, three at the most. When you bombard me like this, I have a hard time processing what you're saying, much less answering your questions. AND I get the feeling that your questions are rhetorical in nature, meaning that you really don't want answers from me.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having a hard time understanding my objections to the doctrines of Mormonism.;)
Do you believe that the Bible is THE written word of God? Do you believe in absolute truth and that God conveys this truth through His written word?

If your answer to these questions is no, then I can see why you don't understand where I'm coming from. Please don't go into the stuff about fundamentalism. I don't care what anyone calls it when I stand on God's written word and use it as THE measure for truth. As I have said before, been doing this for over 40 years, and it has served me very well in life.

Please hear what I'm saying. Any revelation ever given that was truly from God does not contradict His written word. God doesn't contradict Himself! Truth NEVER contradicts truth! (Any SEEMING contradiction would be considered a dichotomy.)

The Book of Mormon contradicts God's written word in BIG ways. The revelations of Joseph Smith contradict God's written word.

God did not allow His written word to become corrupted. Any religion that makes this claim is false, not just Mormonism. Did you know that Muslims make the false claim that the written word of God has been corrupted and cannot be trusted? And yet both of these religions include info from the Bible in their scriptures. Go figure!

You might say, doesn't the New Testament contradict the Old Testament? No, it doesn't. From Genesis on, the Old Testament points to the future Messiah. The New Testament is THE New Covenant with this Messiah. It is a perfect covenant based on the perfect sacrifice of this Messiah Jesus Christ that was made once for all time. Jesus Christ finished the work that is the foundation of this New Covenant. Jesus Christ ALONE is the foundation.

There is no NEWER Covenant that God has made with man! There is no "restored" gospel!

As you can see, I am very passionate about this down to the core of my being! And I make no apologies for this passion.

Any further questions? :)

Don't expect, nor am i looking for an apology. And bombard you...lol you have to be kidding me.

You ask me...Do you believe that the Bible is THE written word of God? Of course I do... And the Jews could say the same thing about the New Testament. and yes it did not happen as foretold. They were expecting a human king warlord that would put them in power. What they got was the Lord, full of peace and love.

If the Old Testament told of the Son of God coming as the messiah, they would have been shouting it from the mountain tops...in every prophetic book, you would be tripping over it, and there probably have been a whole book about it. Imagine the excitement! And then they would not have rejected Christ.

It would be big news, it would not be something you would need a fine tooth comb or microscope to find a couple scriptures to suggest it. Then Christ tells the Jews that parts of the Mosaic Laws are wrong and even suggest that Moses himself wrote at least one...but once you say one, how many more did Moses write? Of course Christ said that not a single letter will ever change. So then, what He said about divorce, eye for eye, and adultery, should we disregard them? It is not a simple as you think....and God's Word does not handcuff the Trinity.

I think you are smart....I think this concern regarding the Mormons is beneath you. Find a better topic. In the mean time...you probably think I am a heckler, if you want me to stop posting on the thread, that is fine. Think well of you, God Bless.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You ask me...Do you believe that the Bible is THE written word of God? Of course I do... And the Jews could say the same thing about the New Testament. and yes it did not happen as foretold. They were expecting a human king warlord that would put them in power. What they got was the Lord, full of peace and love.

If the Old Testament told of the Son of God coming as the messiah, they would have been shouting it from the mountain tops...in every prophetic book, you would be tripping over it, and there probably have been a whole book about it. Imagine the excitement! And then they would not have rejected Christ.

From the time that Adam and Eve sinned, God killed an animal and used the skin to cover their nakedness. This act of God foreshadowed the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God who would take away their sins. As John said when he saw Jesus coming, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

The Old Testament foretold of a suffering Messiah. David prophesied about the crucifixion of Jesus in Psalms 22. Many, not all, of the Jews rejected Jesus as the suffering Messiah because they wanted a king to deliver them, so they tried to seize Jesus and make him their king.

Other OT scriptures speak of the kingly Messiah. Here are two verses: Psalms 2:6 and Zechariah 9:9.

I think you are smart....I think this concern regarding the Mormons is beneath you. Find a better topic. In the mean time...you probably think I am a heckler, if you want me to stop posting on the thread, that is fine. Think well of you, God Bless.

You think that my desire to expose and discuss cults is beneath me because I'm "smart"? I don't understand what intelligence has to do with it. Really. And no, I don't think that you're a heckler. Everyone is free to post in this thread. I've only asked that the finger pointing stop and that we try to stay on topic.

So, please feel free to post. Blessings to you too!

 

[brakelite]

Brakelite said The question is whether Mormons can justifiably call themselves Christian based on what doctrines...true teachings...that both belief systems hold...and there are vast differences.

Justifiably....that is problem! She does not need to justify her beliefs to you or anybody. You do not hold the rule.
True teachings.....Man you have to be kidding! 30,000 some odd different Protestant interpretations of true teachings. Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?
Both belief systems....and you are only worried about two?
How many religions can you say you do not believe in? You could probably say there are a lot of these 30,000 denominations you do not believe in, and that is fine. But when you say justify, that means that you have some sort of self delusion that makes you the judge, and you are no judge in such matters. You only have the right to judge that their religion is not yours....it is not your call, if they are Christians or not. You place yourself as God. That is a problem.
Pot luck lunch....Baskin & Robins...31 flavors, we could only wish the numbers would be that low.
To say you do not believe in their beliefs is enough....anymore than that and you place yourself as a judge in the affairs of God. As I said before the scriptures are there, written in ink on paper, but the Word of God is living and cannot be bound by any book. Beyond that, just common sense, it would be an absurd idea to think that the Trinity has not been active over the last 2000 years. Interacting with humanity in so many ways with revelations and movements of the Holy Spirit, and the Grace of God. No the Trinity did not retire or wait on the justification of brakelite to be God.

You need to reread the very post you quoted. I question...I do not judge. But for perspective maybe you should read the letter to the Galatians. Oh foolish Galatians...I don't speak as such. I am questioning whether any person can call themselves Christian on the basis that they base their faith in anything other than the blood of the Lamb of God... And if in doing so they have added certain requirements in order to make themselves more acceptable or holy that the biblical gospel doesn't require... And calls foolish. I ask this of Catholics...I ask this of Mormons...I ask this of Jehovah witnesses...I ask it off myself.
And if we cannot openly and transparently challenge one another whether it our faith is sound... Just as Jesus did... Just as the apostles did... Just as the apostles admonished us to do...
KJV 2 Timothy 4
The Duties of a Minister
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

If this offends you, then maybe we all need to reassess our purpose for being here. I belong to a denomination that for 160 years has received is share of criticism... Sometimes fully justified. .. And still does get branded as a cult and a teacher of heresy. I fully expect this... Even welcome it.. And it doesn't offend me. It challenges me. It demands that I must at all times fully justify my own faith. Not just to anyone who asks...
KJV 1 Peter 3
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

But for my own sake...
KJV 2 Corinthians 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So I reject your accusations. Elswhere I have fully accepted Jane Does own declaration of her faith in Christ... Ask her... She will agree with this. What I am questioning today is not her faith... But her church's doctrines whether they can be designated Christian on the basis of justification by faith alone as no Christian ought question.. And which all people who seek possible membership of any church ought to understand. Including my own.

 

[Grailhunter]

From the time that Adam and Eve sinned, God killed an animal and used the skin to cover their nakedness. This act of God foreshadowed the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb on God who would take away their sins. As John said when he saw Jesus coming, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

The Old Testament foretold of a suffering Messiah. David prophesied about the crucifixion of Jesus in Psalms 22. Many, not all, of the Jews rejected Jesus as the suffering Messiah because they wanted a king to deliver them, so they tried to seize Jesus and make him their king.

Other OT scriptures speak of the kingly Messiah. I'm sure that you can do an internet search on this. Or maybe someone here can speak to this. (I don't have time to elaborate. Sorry)



You think that my desire to expose and discuss cults is beneath me because I'm "smart"? I don't understand what intelligence has to do with it. Really. And no, I don't think that you're a heckler. Everyone is free to post in this thread. I've only asked that the finger pointing stop and that we try to stay on topic.

So, please feel free to post. Blessings to you too!

The Old Testament foretold of a suffering Messiah. David prophesied about the crucifixion of Jesus in Psalms 22. Many, not all, of the Jews rejected Jesus as the suffering Messiah because they wanted a king to deliver them, so they tried to seize Jesus and make him their king.

Messiah was a belief, and the scriptures indicate that he would see his children...if I remember correctly. If the story would have been about the Messiah-God....hundreds of Scriptures....the Jews would be expecting it, but no, the Jews today are still looking for a human-warlord.

You think that my desire to expose and discuss cults is beneath me

Definition of cult? lol That is topic Lady English teacher. You have a religion here, on this forum, that portrays God as a blood thirsty puppet god that damns people to hell before they are born. Predestines them to sin, they are helpless, innocent, forced to sin by their god. No mercy and no escape. Sounds like the definition of Satan, ahhh. And you are worried about the Mormons? Your sights are set a little low.

I don't understand what intelligence has to do with it. Really.

Intelligence offers no guarantee that we will not make a mistake, but it should help us not to continue doing the wrong thing. Over the course of time there have been good examples of "cults" and their unique characteristics. Study them first. From the Protestant perspective, the Mormons and the Catholic "type" churches have beliefs that are different....but beliefs all the same....not mind control....not physical captivity. The Mormon church is not satanic or a cult. They have different beliefs than you. The information has been presented to you by people that are here talking to you. I have known them for years, they are nothing close to a cult.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Definition of cult? lol That is topic Lady English teacher.

Definition of a cult:

In a Christian context, the definition of a cult is, specifically, “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.” A cult is a group that teaches doctrines that, if believed, will cause a person to remain unsaved. A cult claims to be part of a religion, yet it denies essential truth(s) of that religion. Therefore, a Christian cult will deny one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity while still claiming to be Christian.
Source: What is the definition of a cult? | GotQuestions.org
​

One of the most basic truths of Christianity is that the Bible is the only written word of God. Many Christian statements of faith recognize the Bible as the infallible word of God and ultimate authority in matters of faith.

When we say, “The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice,” we mean that we hold the Bible, God’s Holy Word, to be our ultimate guide for what we believe (“faith”) and what we do (“practice”). We mean that the Bible trumps man’s authority, church tradition, and our own opinions. We mean we will allow nothing that opposes God’s Word to dictate our actions or control our thinking. We mean that we agree with the Reformers’ cry of sola scriptura.
Source: What does it mean that the Bible should be our sole authority for faith and practice? | GotQuestions.org
​

I believe that any group that recognizes any other writings as being above or even equal to the Bible in authority is a cult. This is certainly the case with Mormonism. In some cases, cults rewrite the Bible to fit their unbiblical doctrines, such as in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses with their New World Translation.

You have a religion here, on this forum, that portrays God as a blood thirsty puppet god that damns people to hell before they are born. Predestines them to sin, they are helpless, innocent, forced to sin by their god. No mercy and no escape. Sounds like the definition of Satan, ahhh. And you are worried about the Mormons? Your sights are set a little low.

I don't know of any Christian group that teaches that God predestines people to sin, as you have said. And I don't believe that the biblical doctrine of predestination means that God predestines people to hell. It's my understanding that this is basically Calvin's take on it, but I say this at the risk of oversimplifying his teachings. That's a topic for another thread. There are plenty of threads that discuss this....

The problem with your post is that you're conflating these two issues: the BIBLICAL doctrine of predestination and the UN-biblical doctrines of Mormonism. The fact that some of the fundamental doctrines of Mormonism are unbiblical is the issue we're discussing in this thread. And some of their doctrines are not just slightly unbiblical; they are unbiblical to the extreme. If you didn't read the OP, please read it, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Do you think that it's good and loving to ignore these unbiblical doctrines because you find Mormons that you know to be likable people? Do you not feel that it's unloving to leave them in the error of LDS doctrine, trapped in a lie??

I know that some on this forum would say that it's unloving to offend anyone. But did Jesus ever offend anyone with the truth? Did Peter or Paul??? If the truth offends, this is the problem. If we truly love God, then we truly love His truth because they are inseparable.

So, sometimes God calls us to expose lies that keep people from the truth. This is my motive in starting this thread. Can I change anyone's heart? No! But I can offer the truth and pray that all will come to the truth because it is not God's desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[brakelite]

Leaving aside the specific doctrines of the LDS church, my principle query as to the church's qualification regarding Christian faith and practice lies at the very foundation of their being... That is the reason for their existence. Joseph Smith declared that the reason God need to choose another prophet to translate those golden plates was in order to make known the true gospel which for almost 2000 had been lost to the world because of the great apostasy shortly after the apostles died. Thus the Mormon gospel is supposedly an apostolic gospel which no other church in the history of Christianity was familiar with. So, is it? Is the gospel... The way of salvation... As taught and practiced by the LDS church today the same as was taught in the first century??
When I read from a variety of sources... And hold conversation with different Mormons going back over 40 years, I have come to the conclusion that the beliefs I hear that are so intrinsically and uniquely LDS, beliefs that make Mormons what they are, and could not be disposed of otherwise they would cease to be the LDS church, and which so intimately hold such an essential role in the LDS gospel and way to salvation, can in no manner shape or form be compared to the apostolic church. This in my view, because they are different to the apostolic church while claiming to be a revelation of the apostolic church, belies their claims to being Christian, despite holding to some doctrines that are Christian in nature. I am happy if proved wrong.

 

[4Jesus]

Something got severly messed up quoting him. I see the issue in my quotes of him, and tried to edit it, but it's not saving the edit (and the quotations) for some reason.

The only thing that came out messed up is the two quotes of his, one right after the other. The words are all there though, even if broken up in two quotes.

If that alone is enough for you to not read it and say my words don't count, so be it. I think you're looking for any reason to discredit what I have to say though.

It's not that hard to follow; that's a stretch. If you look back at his post, his words are all there, in order...

Your quote of my post came out whacky looking too, so not sure what's going on.

**************
It appears you are trying to answer three different people in one post. I tried to figure it out three separate times, and then I asked my wife, who is a Language Arts Major, to decipher it. Neither of us could, and she just walked away, shaking her head.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to answer 3 different people: Grailhunter was posting a quote Brakelite had stated, and I was following up to GH. I'm not sure what went wrong there.

My words aren't important enough to worry about it - nothing major to come from it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Definition of a cult:

In a Christian context, the definition of a cult is, specifically, “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.” A cult is a group that teaches doctrines that, if believed, will cause a person to remain unsaved. A cult claims to be part of a religion, yet it denies essential truth(s) of that religion. Therefore, a Christian cult will deny one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity while still claiming to be Christian.
Source: What is the definition of a cult? | GotQuestions.org
​

One of the most basic truths of Christianity is that the Bible is the only written word of God. Many Christian statements of faith recognize the Bible as the infallible word of God and ultimate authority in matters of faith.

When we say, “The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice,” we mean that we hold the Bible, God’s Holy Word, to be our ultimate guide for what we believe (“faith”) and what we do (“practice”). We mean that the Bible trumps man’s authority, church tradition, and our own opinions. We mean we will allow nothing that opposes God’s Word to dictate our actions or control our thinking. We mean that we agree with the Reformers’ cry of sola scriptura.
Source: What does it mean that the Bible should be our sole authority for faith and practice? | GotQuestions.org
​

I believe that any group that recognizes any other writings as being above or even equal to the Bible in authority is a cult. This is certainly the case with Mormonism. In some cases, cults rewrite the Bible to fit their unbiblical doctrines, such as in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses with their New World Translation.



I don't believe that the biblical doctrine of predestination means that God predestines people to hell. It's my understanding that this is basically Calvin's take on it, but I say this at the risk of oversimplifying his teachings. That's a topic for another thread. There are plenty of threads that discuss this....

The problem with your post is that you're conflating these two issues: the BIBLICAL doctrine of predestination and the UN-biblical doctrines of Mormonism. The fact that some of the fundamental doctrines of Mormonism are unbiblical is the issue we're discussing in this thread. And some of their doctrines are not just slightly unbiblical; they are unbiblical to the extreme. If you didn't read the OP, please read it, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Do you think that it's good and loving to ignore these unbiblical doctrines because you find Mormons that you know to be likable people? Do you not feel that it's unloving to leave them in the error of LDS doctrine, trapped in a lie??

I know that some on this forum would say that it's unloving to offend anyone. But did Jesus ever offend anyone with the truth? Did Peter or Paul??? If the truth offends, this is the problem. If we truly love God, then we truly love His truth because they are inseparable.

So, sometimes God calls us to expose lies that keep people from the truth. This is my motive in starting this thread. Can I change anyone's heart? No! But I can offer the truth and pray that all will come to the truth because it is not God's desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

In a Christian context, the definition of a cult is, specifically, “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.

lol That definition would not have come from Webster''s lol Handboook from your church? lol Protestants do not like the definition of cult because it sounds like Marten Luther started a cult. Webster's Encyclopedia Edition...Cult (Kult), n [<Fr. <L. cultus, care <colere, to cultivate] 1. a system of religious worship or ritual. 2. devoted attachment to, or admiration for a person, principle, etc. 3. a group of followers; sect.
A lot of times the word cult is used out of context and sometime gets mixed up with the word occult. lol I am laughing because I am getting a kick out of correcting a English teacher....forgive me...humor.

Truth....truth is the Bible exists. Truth is man has written God's Word in the Bible. The word truth from a religious context is extremely subjective. Truth is, the Bible is not the only written Word. The first Bibles (bound book) were commissioned by Constantine, called the Fifty Bibles of Constantine. The books selected for that were determined to best represent Christianity, but never judged as the only writings of God's word. The various churches of the time, all had favorites texts, and such a claim would not have went well. Again the close of the Bible did not gag the Word of God.

Predestination is God's power. The belief that portrays God as a blood thirsty puppet master god, that damns people to hell before they are born. Predestines them to sin, they are helpless, innocent, forced to sin by their god. No mercy and no escape. Sounds like the definition of Satan, ahhh. Is Calvinism.

Do you think that it's good and loving to ignore these unbiblical doctrines? Who is the judge of that, again subjective. Some believe that the movements of the Holy Spirits and speaking in tongues is unbiblical...some believe that the laying on of hands and oil for healing is witchcraft.
And for the record I am a believer of the Holy Spirit and healing, and it is biblical.

because you find Mormons that you know to be likable people? I am well versed with the fact that likable people can kill you. In a gadda da vida! What I mean, as a whole, from around the world, their character, demeanor, and spirit, sets a good model for Christianity as a whole.

I know that some on this forum would say that it's unloving to offend anyone.... I have often thought of having a tee-shirt printed up that reads "I don't care if I offend you!" lol I consider political correctness, just one of many social insanities...isms.

So, sometimes God calls us to expose lies that keep people from the truth. And there in lays the root of your error....in a world of over 30,000 protestant denominations and 10's of thousands of non-denominational churches....you come from the perspective that you know the truth, that your belief is correct. As I said before....with all love and respect....you need to get a bigger bubble.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

In a Christian context, the definition of a cult is, specifically, “a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.

lol That definition would not have come from Webster''s lol Handboook from your church? lol Protestants do not like the definition of cult because it sounds like Marten Luther started a cult. Webster's Encyclopedia Edition...Cult (Kult), n [<Fr. <L. cultus, care <colere, to cultivate] 1. a system of religious worship or ritual. 2. devoted attachment to, or admiration for a person, principle, etc. 3. a group of followers; sect.
A lot of times the word cult is used out of context and sometime gets mixed up with the word occult. lol I am laughing because I am getting a kick out of correcting a English teacher....forgive me...humor.

Truth....truth is the Bible exists. Truth is man has written God's Word in the Bible. The word truth from a religious context is extremely subjective. Truth is, the Bible is not the only written Word. The first Bibles (bound book) were commissioned by Constantine, called the Fifty Bibles of Constantine. The books selected for that were determined to best represent Christianity, but never judged as the only writings of God's word. The various churches of the time, all had favorites texts, and such a claim would not have went well. Again the close of the Bible did not gag the Word of God.

Predestination is God's power. The belief that portrays God as a blood thirsty puppet master god, that damns people to hell before they are born. Predestines them to sin, they are helpless, innocent, forced to sin by their god. No mercy and no escape. Sounds like the definition of Satan, ahhh. Is Calvinism.

Do you think that it's good and loving to ignore these unbiblical doctrines? Who is the judge of that, again subjective. Some believe that the movements of the Holy Spirits and speaking in tongues is unbiblical...some believe that the laying on of hands and oil for healing is witchcraft.
And for the record I am a believer of the Holy Spirit and healing, and it is biblical.

because you find Mormons that you know to be likable people? I am well versed with the fact that likable people can kill you. In a gadda da vida! What I mean, as a whole, from around the world, their character, demeanor, and spirit, sets a good model for Christianity as a whole.

I know that some on this forum would say that it's unloving to offend anyone.... I have often thought of having a tee-shirt printed up that reads "I don't care if I offend you!" lol I consider political correctness, just one of many social insanities...isms.

So, sometimes God calls us to expose lies that keep people from the truth. And there in lays the root of your error....in a world of over 30,000 protestant denominations and 10's of thousands of non-denominational churches....you come from the perspective that you know the truth, that your belief is correct. As I said before....with all love and respect....you need to get a bigger bubble.

I can see from what you say in this post that you’re not afraid of offending me. Did you ever stop and consider that maybe your bubble is too big???

 

[Grailhunter]

I can see from what you say in this post that you’re not afraid of offending me. Did you ever stop and consider that maybe your bubble is too big???

Third rock from the sun.....Reality is, truth will get you in trouble, truth will offend and truth will set you free. Your zipper is open....a friend tells you that...someone that don't care just chuckles and walks on. Truth is we all have made our mistakes and have sinned. God is real, that is the truth, but reality and beliefs are not enemies.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Third rock from the sun.....Reality is, truth will get you in trouble, truth will offend and truth will set you free. Your zipper is open....a friend tells you that...someone that don't care just chuckles and walks on. Truth is we all have made our mistakes and have sinned. God is real, that is the truth, but reality and beliefs are not enemies.

This is just plain rude.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is just plain rude.

That was not rude, but I believe that, that perspective is for the one that finds it rude. I have beliefs about such things. So what do you say we stop talking.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

For anyone interested, here's a link to a resource for understanding LDS terminology.

A BRIEF REFERENCE GUIDE TO COMMON TERMS OF THE LDS CHURCH

Dictionary of Mormonese — Truth In Love Ministry - Witnessing to Mormons