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[Job]

Show me some verses that say there is no hell.

Post the quote where I said hell doesn't exist.

.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never said there wasn't a hell. You assumed.

And I never stated that mentally handicapped children are going to hell.

If I said these things, show me the quote. If you can't, you need to stop making these accusations. You're lying about something I said and I don't like it.

If you're so sure of yourself, back up your accusations.

.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood Job.
I made statements as to the above and you were not agreeing with me so it would seem that you agree with the opposite.

I apologize. Please state your position.

Does hell exist?
Are innocent children going there?
Did God create evil?

 

[Job]

I made statements as to the above and you were not agreeing with me so it would seem that you agree with the opposite.

Do you always attack people who don't agree with you?

You need to stop playing the mind reader and look at what's written. I never said any of the things you accused me of and it really pisses me off.

.

 

[Job]

And maybe Job could learn how to exegete a verse instead of putting down persons who know how.

Job doesn't believe in spoon feeding. If the scriptures are veiled to you, there's gotta be a reason.

.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you always attack people who don't agree with you?

You need to stop playing the mind reader and look at what's written. I never said any of the things you accused me of and it really pisses me off.

.

Depends what it is.
Calvinism...YES
Innocent children going to hell...YES

And, I've apologized...nothing more I can do.

 

[Richard_oti]

Were YOU not being very condescending in our past conversation?
But in a rather coy way---

Actually, no, I wasn't.

I, OTOH, like to say what I have to say up front.

You keep letting us all know about your schooling and how we need to learn.

As to my name:
Irony of irony.
Sarcasm of sarcasm.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer each one.

The one who is saying that the innocent are saved (me) is being told she should change her name from "grace".
The one who is saying that the innocent go to hell, is portraying himself (you) as the hero.

Oh, how victimized you must be.

<snip>

AND you end your post with A QUESTION!!

Look again. It was a statement.

Well, why don't you ANSWER your questions every now and then since apparently I'm too dumb to?

I have, nor have I insinuated that you are dumb.

Was Paul a learned person?
Were all the Apostles dumb persons?
Gee. Maybe we shouldn't be placing our future in their hands?
Maybe they were so dumb they can't remember WHAT Jesus said and we have it all wrong!!

Like all eyewitness accounts, there are minor discrepancies between their accounts. Which, has led to misunderstandings and to error. However, that also is for the good and serves a purpose.

BTW, You sound pretty learned yourself.
Maybe you should dumb-down a bit??

How dumb would you like it?

 

[Richard_oti]

Wow.
Why didn't you speak as above when we were having our conversations.
It would have been interesting.

So am I to step it up a notch, dumb it down, or go to school to learn?
Make up my mind.

No more rain --- but maybe fire?

Is that rhetorical, or is that the type of question that you have gotten irritated with me asking?

Isa 66:16 For by fire will YHVH execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and the slain of YHVH shall be many.

2Pe 3:7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

So God was grieved?
So He didn't know beforehand that His creation would grieve Him?
So why did He create us to begin with?

Rev 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

And maybe Job could learn how to exegete a verse instead of putting down persons who know how.

Perhaps Job didn't see a need to expound or to interpret it for you. As for knowing how, even you are limited in that regard, for there is much in which I know you can not do so. So get off your throne.

Perhaps, as an example of "GodsGrace", you could have gently demonstrated the doing of such and taught, rather than respond as you did.

(even when they don't answer the question asked)

So be satisfied, for I answered the question. Which brought up more questions.

So YOU attribute evil to God the creator?
Wonderful....

He floods the earth, He kills innocent children, sends the mentally impaired to hell, etc etc.

How are you going to handle the wrath of "God" being poured out upon the earth if you can not accept the flood? And no where, did I state nor insinuate anything with regard to the impaired.

It seems to me that Jesus taught that God is a God of love.

Yet, for what reason did "God" raise up Pharaoh? Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

Can not the "Potter" do with the "clay" as he sees fit?

Since you're so intelligent, something you'd like ME not to be

I have not claimed to be. As for you, I'd like to see use your intelligence in a more befitting manner.

<snip>

 

[Richard_oti]

See post 109.
Luke 16 was NOT a holding pen for those who were in torment.
They were where they were meant to be.

Post 109 doesn't really say anything.

The conditions within or of a "holding pen", are that which they are given to be. Ultimately, that "holding pen" also shall be thrown into the lake of fire. If you read Enoch, if memory serves, there are three such places for wicked, and only one for the righteous.

For someone so "God is love" all the time, you sure seem to also be enamored with the thought of "hell".

 

[Richard_oti]

The creator HOPED His creation would respond in love.
HE DIDN'T KNOW???

Why was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world?

Major flaws in your theology.
No response is necessary.

So the question was rhetorical in nature.

Jesus was the perfect representation of God Creator, whom you call
Yahweh. YWVH. Are you even Christian?

<chuckle> Ahh, the casting of more aspersion. Not much different from @Job 's signature line.

The God I love DOES NOT kill children or anyone else.

Not even the wicked? Or, do you prefer eternal torment for them?

Perhaps you should read more of the New Testament if you want to be Christian and less of the Torah.

<chuckle>

That would be nice.
And do you really believe I need preaching on Jesus being found in the O.T.?

I think you still have much to learn with regard to Jesus in the O.T.. Or, was that intended as rhetorical in nature? Perhaps I better go to school to learn the difference.

<snip>

I guess we'll find out when we get to heaven...

Which begs the question.

 

[Helen]

2 Sam 12:14 Nathan said:- "because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.."...it died.

David did not point the finger at God...but when the baby died David anointed himself and went into the Temple to worship God.
God obviously took that baby ( conceived in sin) unto himself...and David knew without doubt that he would when he died, join his child in glory.

22 "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

All babies go to God's arms and grow there before Him.

 

[Job]

@Richard_oti

Excellent posts.

 

[amadeus]

You can believe what you will.
But you will not so easily proclaim that the innocent are lost.
And the REASON you so easily could believe this is BECAUSE of your belief regarding the hereafter.
.....of which you cannot be absolutely sure.

You say that Luke 16 is a holding pen...but ONLY for those in Abraham's Bossom.
The others on the other side of the gulf are where they belong and in torment...sounds like hell, no?

When one accepts hell as a reality, he is much more careful as to his beliefs regarding the innocent.

:)
Oh, sister, I am very careful about my beliefs on anything. I strive not to condemn or reward beyond what God would have me to do. Only what is in my job description is what I work to do.

You apparently presume that I am wrong. In fact I have been wrong too many times in the past to simply say nay or that it cannot be. On the other hand I cannot change what I believe for you or any other person. I keep on trying to live each day as if it were the last one. What else can anyone do? We cannot deny what we already believe unless and/or if God gives us something else.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28

Give God the glory!

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I am going to pray over your question for a while. I will say this though:

1) I believe God is Just.
2) I also believe God can reveal the Son to whomever He chooses.
3) The word says every knee will bow before the Lord.

If we are willing to speculate that God will make an exception for babies and the mentally ill unable to comprehend ...would God be just in not making the same exception for someone spiritually blinded and incapable of seeing?

No speculation on my part.:)

What is your definition of being "spiritually blinded" and "incapable of seeing"?

Wouldn't a mentally ill/deficient or infant be "incapable of seeing"?

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Yes.

Does the person who has heard of Jesus but decides not to follow Him get the wrath of God?

Does the person who heard of Jesus, reads scripture, interprets scripture to say that abortion and same sex marriage is OK and is backed up by scripture get the wrath of God?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

YES!

What drug are you on?
Have you ever heard of the age of reason?
What do you think it means?

It means that if you CANNOT reason, God does not hold you responsible.

You mean those kids down at the Stella Maris near Livorno are going straight to hell when they die because they don't even know they're alive?

Please post some scripture on this.

I'll post this:
1 Timothy 2:4
1 John 4:8

Jesus healed the sick, the simple, the demon possessed.
Will He not do this for His children that are disabled?

What a terrible answer you gave.
Also read
Revelation 21:4
There shall be no more mourning, or crying or pain.

WHO has more pain than the disabled?

Please rethink.

This is a hard answer...but it is correct:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

But I believe you simply misunderstood that he meant that those who could not possibly navigate the world, would be accountable for more than this. Which is of course not true - but all do die. This is the wrath of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No speculation on my part.:)

What is your definition of being "spiritually blinded" and "incapable of seeing"?

Wouldn't a mentally ill/deficient or infant be "incapable of seeing"?

IHS...Mary

Of course I would include mentally/ill or infant.

What is my definition of "spiritually blinded"?

There's physically blind and spiritually blind: one is incapable of seeing the physical. The other is incapible of seeing the spiritual. Jesus heals both.

There is deafness in the flesh(ears), and deafness toward God's voice.

There is also miserably ill in the physical body...and miserably ill (damaged) in the soul...needing new Spirit, a new birth.

As I know you are aware: There is physical birth and spiritual birth.

The point I was trying to make is: we speak of infants and sickness pertaining to the flesh and what we see with our eyes, but what about those things pertain to a sick Spirit; sometime adults have an infant mentality(I don't mean physically. I mean thier soul is so damaged and scarred that there has been absolutely no growth and they remain an inifidel. WHat is this age of accountability? Where does it come from and is it scriptural?

 

[Marymog]

Of course I would include mentally/ill or infant.

What is my definition of "spiritually blinded"?

There's physically blind and spiritually blind: one is incapable of seeing the physical. The other is incapible of seeing the spiritual. Jesus heals both.

There is deafness in the flesh(ears), and deafness toward God's voice.

There is also miserably ill in the physical body...and miserably ill (damaged) in the soul...needing new Spirit, a new birth.

As I know you are aware: There is physical birth and spiritual birth.

The point I was trying to make is: we speak of infants and sickness pertaining to the flesh and what we see with our eyes, but what about those things pertain to a sick Spirit; sometime adults have an infant mentality(I don't mean physically. I mean thier soul is so damaged and scarred that there has been absolutely no growth and they remain an inifidel). WHat is this age of accountability? Where does it come from and is it scriptural?

Hi VIJ,

One could accuse you or me of being deaf toward God's voice if we disagree with their interpretation of scripture. One could accuse you and I of potentially eternal damnation if we don't agree with their interpretation. Does that make you or I spiritually sick or mean we have a damaged soul? Maybe they are right and we are wrong. Who has the authority to decide these things?

I guess one would first have to define "sick Spirit" and 'damaged soul'!! You can't make something well if you don't know what is wrong with it.

Since scripture does not tell us WHAT the age of accountability is that decision is left up to The Church. As you know scripture does not have all the answers. Ignorant and unstable men have twisted parts of Scripture to fit their desires instead of Gods. This twisting will result in their destruction. That is why man needs a Church with authority.

IHS....Mary

It is general practice that a normal person is accountable for their actions (knowing right/wrong) around the age of seven.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi VIJ,

One could accuse you or me of being deaf toward God's voice if we disagree with their interpretation of scripture. One could accuse you and I of potentially eternal damnation if we don't agree with their interpretation. Does that make you or I spiritually sick or mean we have a damaged soul? Maybe they are right and we are wrong. Who has the authority to decide these things?

I guess one would first have to define "sick Spirit" and 'damaged soul'!! You can't make something well if you don't know what is wrong with it.

Since scripture does not tell us WHAT the age of accountability is that decision is left up to The Church. As you know scripture does not have all the answers. Ignorant and unstable men have twisted parts of Scripture to fit their desires instead of Gods. This twisting will result in their destruction. That is why man needs a Church with authority.

IHS....Mary

It is general practice that a normal person is accountable for their actions (knowing right/wrong) around the age of seven.

Obviously I am not speaking(or writing) well enough to get the point across.

A "child" is molested from the age of 5 months old. That child grows up in a demaeaning atmosphere. All they know of God is one form of religion that is beat into them day after day. They know nothing else. They grow up cold and disconnected from everyone. All they know of church is what they were taught by the very ones that abused them. As an adult they spew hatred, unforgiveness, coventness for all they never had a chance to have... all the fruit from what others call "a bad tree" is bad fruit. They turn to prostitution and needles, because in their mind this is normal. Abuse yourself. I would call that "sick" inwardly. When was their age of accountability.

Obviously, you have never met someone whose conscience has been seared. By life or by God?

Yet we are told to forgive. And don't tell me we are not. I know the Spirit well enough to know forgiveness is what He seeks or wants...for all. We judge with our eyes. I asked a simple question. For a damaged soul...what is your age cut off for them?

 

[theQuestion]

What is wrong with this picture? Men in a pissing contest; Mine is holier than yours. Testosterone is shed more than humble tears. "I am right. You are wrong." Puffed up, argumentative men; claiming superior knowledge and their truth as the ONLY way. But they have forgotten their first love. What does He say about pride? What does he say about arrogance and vain arguments? What does He say about strength being made perfect in weakness? What does He say about knowing them by their fruits?

What is wrong with this picture? THe stench of piss is stinking up the place...

Let them be castrated before you, Lord. Let them enter as a bride.

That is how the Jews felt about Jesus.
What is the alternative?
To be gullible?
To believe EVERYONE is right?
That Truth can't be proven?

 

[Marymog]

Obviously I am not speaking(or writing) well enough to get the point across.

A "child" is molested from the age of 5 months old. That child grows up in a demaeaning atmosphere. All they know of God is one form of religion that is beat into them day after day. They know nothing else. They grow up cold and disconnected from everyone. All they know of church is what they were taught by the very ones that abused them. As an adult they spew hatred, unforgiveness, coventness for all they never had a chance to have... all the fruit from what others call "a bad tree" is bad fruit. They turn to prostitution and needles, because in their mind this is normal. Abuse yourself. I would call that "sick" inwardly. When was their age of accountability.

Obviously, you have never met someone whose conscience has been seared. By life or by God?

Yet we are told to forgive. And don't tell me we are not. I know the Spirit well enough to know forgiveness is what He seeks or wants...for all. We judge with our eyes. I asked a simple question. For a damaged soul...what is your age cut off for them?

Hi VIJ,

Thank you for that articulate narrative. I now understand what you are saying. You present a very tough question. It seems you are not really asking at what AGE are we accountable. You are asking at what point in our life, after we have heard/experienced the PROPER "form of religion" (Christianity?), are we held accountable?

We can agree that the child in the scenario you gave wasn't taught/raised right. How do we know when WE are taught right? Did the Catholics get it right? The Mormons? The Baptist...Lutherans...Calvinist??? VictoryinJesus? MaryMog?

Some would say that anyone that was raised Catholic from birth does not know any better and they are not accountable for their false (Catholic) beliefs. Some say those individual Catholics will be saved but only because of their ignorance to The Truth.

Same thing with the Mormon's. At what point are those Catholic and Mormon adults responsible? At what point is the child that was molested responsible?

IHS...Mary