We just dont want Jo to preach falsly and cause men to stumble, thinking they can do whatever they want and say "I will come back, but right now im going to run as far as i can and do what pleases me"
sad.
What is Trusting God, exactly?
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We just dont want Jo to preach falsly and cause men to stumble, thinking they can do whatever they want and say "I will come back, but right now im going to run as far as i can and do what pleases me"
sad.
Yes, the true church is not a harlot but the churches in this world are harlot and will not be Christ's bride. These worldly churches are following the ways of Satan who masquerades as Christ. The doctrine of hell is most certainly one of Satan's doctrines.
Also, the Jews are at this time "cast into the outer darkness" and have been since the 1st century. The "outer darkness" verse is not speaking of hell but of spiritual darkness - they do not have the truth.
Joe
To EVERYONE,
I am going to be frank and what I have to say will not set well with you. But the truth of scripture cannot be changed. We, as God's creation did not choose to be made carnal and sinful BUT because of reason of Him, He chose to do it. God requires that we must at first be carnal and evil creatures so that we can trull know the goodness of God. But He will not leave us in that sinful condition. He will save us all from it. However, salvation is a long and painful process ( a birth process of creating sons of God) and Christ is going to put us all through it whether we like it or not. We have no choice. But in the end, we will all give glory to God and His ways.
Jburic09032, if you have a desire to "do what pleases you" (meaning your carnal desires) then Christ has not written His law in your heart yet. Once He does, you will not want or desire the things of the flesh but only the things of the Spirit. The Jews proved you cannot follow the law while being carnal. When Christ calls someone to Him, Christ will give them of His faith and He will cause them to repent. But repentance alone does not change one's heart or desires. The indwelling Holy Spirit does that. Our salvation (being changed from a carnal creature to one that is led by the Holy Spirit) is a process - it takes a long time.
Axehead said that he was "born again". I know from scripture that Axehead is NOT born again. No man has been "born again" yet, including the apostles. If we are walking by Christ's Spirit and remain faithful until we die, then and only then will we be "born again" upon our resurrection. That is what being born again means - to be fully changed into the image of Christ with a spiritual body to match. If Christ has chosen us for the church, then we are in the process of being "born again". We are in the gestation period of Christ's pregnancy. The new birth comes upon resurrection - not before.
Those who will be in the church and have died, are still dead waiting for the resurrection of the dead. But upon their resurrection, they will be born again and be like Christ. As for now, we are only given an "earnest" (downpayment) amount of the Holy Spirit. If we had the full amount as Christ did, we would not sin. But we still sin. But hopefully, as Christ's judges us, we will spiritually mature and sin less and less each day of our lives. But until the resurrection comes for us, we will not have the full Spirit of God in us and we will still sin even though we hate doing so. We are simply too spiritually weak to resist all sin yet. Christ will change that condition in us but we must be patient (the patience of the saints).
Also, Axehead mentioned the parable of Lararus and the rich man. That parable is directed to the Jews, who have been cast into the outer darkness with the Kingdom now being offered to the Gentiles. The Jews who are alive today are still in the outer darkness (spiritual darkness) because Christ has hidden His truth from them. The Jews are lost and will be the last group to be saved. And that salvation will occur for them after they are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire. From that judgment, they too will be changed. That is why Christ came - to change us into God's image. You should not believe that He is going to fail, not for anyone. He is God and will have all that pleases Him.
Very little of what you gentlemen say is scriptural. What you believe is the teachings of the harlot church. The reason you don't understand scripture is because Christ has not returned to you a second time and healed your spiritual vision so as to give you the ability to understand scripture. You have believed the lie and are under a strong delusion. Until Christ comes to you personally and takes your spiritual blindness away, you are never going to understand scripture. You are being deceived by Satan. But the unfortunate part of being deceived, is there is no way to know you are deceived until you come out from that deception. I was once spriitually blind and deceived by Satan. I was in the harlot church for 44 years. But Chirst came to me a second time and healed my vision. I can now look back and see the "man of sin" that I was. Someday, you too will be able to say the same thing. But you have no such power at this time.
Your doctrines are all false and you have been led astray because you do not have the ability to see spiritually. Scripture says this blindness and being deceived by Satan is all part of the plan of God and the process of being saved. We all must and will keep the teachings of the book. Someday, your hearts will be changed and after it is, you will not have a desire to sin. "Living it up" will not be something you will want and it will even be repulsive to you. God is going to change us all but only in accordance with His plan and time table. You cannot merely say I accept Christ and presto! you are saved. It does not work that way according to scripture. You and all of mankind have already been saved from the penalty of sin which is death but that is only half of salvation. The other half is you must be spiritually changed so as to stop sinning. That takes faith, repentance, a falling away, being healed of your blindness and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Then comes judgment that will purge the sin out of you. It takes a lifetime if we are blessed enough to be chosen now. If not, then Christ will change you in the final age. He loves us all and will not rest until we are all in the Kingdom of Heaven, fully made in God's image.
In Genesis chapter 1, God said that he was going to make man in His image and that is what He is doing. And that is what ALL of scripture is about. For those blessed, the scriptures have been opened up to us. But for the rest, God has put obsurity in their hearts so that they won't find out what God is doing. But in the final age, God has promised to change that and He will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. God's plan for mankind is not what you teach. He loves us all and is not willing that any should perish. Can't you see that is true? Can't you see that God has the power to draw all men to Him? Can't you see that Hell is a doctrine of a monster who is void of love. Christ loves His enemies. Christ cannot possibly cast His enemies into a tormenting hell for all eternity for no redeeming purpose - it would be totally against His character. If I could make you see that what I am saying is true, I would do it. But it is not within my power. Christ is the great healer of blindness and it doesn't seem like Christ has chosen to heal you yet. And because Christ has not healed you yet, you will go on following the ways of Satan as He has planned. it is not within your power to direct you own steps. It has always been my hope these past few weeks that Christ would have mercy upon some of you and heal your blindness. But I must submit to God's will for you and stop trying to make the blind see. I do not have that power. No matter how much light I try to shine on a blind man, he will not be able to see it because he is blind. You are at Christ's mercy to save you. We all are at Christ's mercy to save us. We can't change ourselves. But He is faithful and true and He will not let any of us down.
I will pray for you.
Joe
Not sure how your post disproves God's omnipresence maybe you can elaborate.
As far as Acts 2 and God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh do you believe that Peter was mistaken or Joel's prophecy was false?
Does a person come to Christ without the help of HolySpirit? Who convicts the world of sin?
Exactly but I find that many do this very thing in order to maintain a belief in unending torment
Do you believe that everyone in the kingdom of God is part of Christ's body?
I never said anything about anyone being reconciled outside of coming through Jesus have I?
I would rather continue this with a more guided discussion in a new thread than a little bit here and some there wouldn't you Axehead?
Who convicted their hearts of sin?
Faith is like this. If i say, "I believe in Tennis." you might expect i have a tennis raquet in my trunk. You might expect I watch tennis on TV. Faith drives me to behave. Similarly, if I say "I believe in God." it is fair to expect me to read the Bible and seek to do what it says.
Hi Jiggy,
I was not trying to disprove God's omnipresence. Not sure how you got that.
For everyone in this life who know they have free choice to do whatever they like everyday, your words don't ring true to reality.
You obliterate the doctrine of sin and the doctrine of faith and the doctrine of volitional love. What good is faith if "we have no choice". What is love if it is forced upon us or we are forced upon it? What is sin if all are saved? Why did God send a sword to earth to cause division between Mother and daughter and Father and son and brother and sister. What is the reason for God testing our hearts. You don't make sons, "whether you like it or not". That is not how sons are made.
So, what is Christ going to put us through, "whether we like it or not"? What kind of painful process is it for those who choose to walk in the flesh?
In the end we will all be "assimilated", "whether we like it or not"? God allows men to not choose him, Joe. He does not forcefully go against one's conscious.
You have created God in your own image in order to support your pre-determined outcome. That is Idolatry.
dragonfly, that was a great article on Universalism. I did not know there was a "Calvinistic Universalism". I liked the whole article and here are a few things that stand out.
Relational love cannot be forced or coerced. On a human level this is called “rape,” (ArkansasJoe's "whether we like it or not) and on the divine level such a unilateral determination to coerce man to participate in God’s love does violence to the genuine faith-love relationship that God intends by a freely chosen response and willingness of man to be intimately involved with Himself. Such a personal faith-love relationship is what God intended when He Self-limited His own sovereign omnipotence in order to grant man a genuine “freedom of choice” that allows a freely chosen relational participation in the inner love relations of the Trinity.
Thank you for the article: http://www.christiny...vformfallac.pdf
Axehead
Dear Axehead,
You are completely misrepresenting what I have written. Are you actually reading my posts? Slow down and READ what I have written without your preconceived ideas of them.
You said:
For everyone in this life who know they have free choice to do whatever they like everyday, your words don't ring true to reality.
So you have FREE choice (properly known as "free will")? Then you can save yourself and you don't need Christ. All you have to do is STOP sinning by the power of your FREE choice to do so. Christ has paid your penalty for the sins you have already committed in the past and since you have the power to stop sinning, then you don't need Christ to change you into a new man. From your free choice, you can simply change yourself into a sin free man by deciding to do so. You don't need to be judged because judgment is for those who have a sin problem and can't stop sinning. Why didn't Christ just tell us to stop since we have that power? But He didn't because we don't have that ability and He even proved to us on a grand scale that it cannot be done. That is why He chose the Nation of Israel and gave them the law of Moses. All they had to do was follow it. But could they? Absolutely not - not even one person could stop sinning. Paul said that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews but after Paul's spiritual vision was healed, he considered himself the "chief of sinners". Mankind does not have the power to direct our own steps. We certainly can make choices but God is the cause of all the choices we make. Our "will" is 100% of the time subserviant to God's "will". To believe otherwise as you do shows that the "man of sin" who is sitting in God's temple (your body) has convinced you that you have to power to go head to head against God's will and win! Utter nonsense. You will come to Christ only when God draws you to Him. You do not have the power within your supposed "free choice" abilities to make that decision.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I have shown you this scripture before. It completely destroys your beliefs concerning one's ability to make a choice for Christ. Have you really ever read it? You don't seem to really READ what I write because you are consistently misrepresenting it in your responses to me. It also appears that you do the same with scripture. God absolutely says that NO ONE can make a free choice to come to Christ unless it is He who causes us to make that choice. We make that choice willingly but God is still the cause of us making it. Scripture also says that our carnal mind (the one we have from birth) hates God (Rom 8:7). Since scripture cannot lie, how can anyone who hates God ever make a "free choice" to love God. They can't. They have no ability to do so according to scripture. Scripture clearly says that God is the one who directs the choices we make. We get to choose but God is the cause of the choice we make. To believe otherwise goes completely against scripture and that belief comes from the "man of sin" who rules in God's temple thinking that he is God. We are all that "man of sin" for a time on our walk down the path that leds to Christ.
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
You need to seriously ask youself why you don't believe these scriptures. They are easy to understand, however the carnal mind cannot accept them as truth. The "man of sin" does not want to give up his throne. But that sense of power the "man of sin" has is a lie and a strong delusion. Your "will" does not rule over God's "will".
You said:
You obliterate the doctrine of sin and the doctrine of faith and the doctrine of volitional love. What good is faith if "we have no choice". What is love if it is forced upon us or we are forced upon it? What is sin if all are saved? Why did God send a sword to earth to cause division between Mother and daughter and Father and son and brother and sister. What is the reason for God testing our hearts. You don't make sons, "whether you like it or not". That is not how sons are made.
Where to start??? Why do you insist that I believe God forces us to do anything? He does not! We do it all willingly. We make the choices we make because we are powerless to make any other choice. We are born with a mind that hates God. We willingly choose to hate God and God is the cause of that hate because He created us with a carnal mind. When Christ causes us to "decide" to come to Him, we do so not because we made a "free choice" in the matter, but because the Father put everything in place in in our lives and within our lives that causes us to make that choice. When we love Him, we do so willingly because He caused all the factors to be put in place (both externally and internally) that will cause us to decide to love Him. He is our creator and He knows exactly how we work. If you love your wife, it is because God put all the factors in place that causes you to love her. God is the cause of it but you willingly make the choice.
In your quote above, are you telling me that God does not make sons by His own choosing, by His own work? I know your doctrines teach that mankind gets to choose whether or not they want to be one of God's son and that if one merely chooses not to be His son then God will be forced to cast them away into your fires of hell. You believe that God may have desired to save that person but the power of that person's will was just too much for God to overcome. Scripture tells us that mankind power is refuted as "nothing" by God. God will, at the time of His choosing, cause all the factors to come in place that will cause us ALL to be drawn to Him. We will come willingly because God will cause us to come willingly. It is heresy to believe that you came to Christ out of your own free will choice. Scripture says that you came to Christ because the Father chose a time and a place to draw you to Him.
You said:
So, what is Christ going to put us through, "whether we like it or not"? What kind of painful process is it for those who choose to walk in the flesh?
In the end we will all be "assimilated", "whether we like it or not"? God allows men to not choose him, Joe. He does not forcefully go against one's conscious.
Christ is going to cause us all to willingly love and follow Him. He will cause us to desire to be like Him so much that we will willingly suffer and die in order to be like Him. And that is exactly what we must do to become like Him. We will suffer while we strive to follow Him and our Old man will die.
He will cause us to willingly be drawn to Him. He will cause us to willingly repent and willingly desire to follow Him. However, He will also cause us to willingly "fall away" because He left us spiritually blind and weak after we came to Him. But after a time (either in this age or the final age), He will come again to us (second coming) and heal our spiritual vision and strengthen us spiritually by giving us an earnest amount of His Spirit. After He does this work of His, we will be finally be able to know the true Christ and see that we had become a "man of sin" and had been deceived into following the ways of Satan. When this second coming event occurs, we will willingly come out of the harlot and willingly desire to start following the true Christ. We are His work. We are the clay and He is the potter. However, for the current time, Christ only comes a second time to His Elect - to those He has chosen to be the in the first fruits of the harvest. But He has promised to come to all of us and not leave us in this carnal and sinful condition. For those not chosen in this age, Christ will come to each of them in the final age. He will conquer death and sin (life and abundant life from John 10:10) that has held mankind in bondage from the time of Adam. He conquers death by His work at the cross and He will conquer sin by His work of changing us into a New Man in Christ. We will all go through this salvation process whether we want to or not. At first, no one will want to because of our carnal mind. But a time will come for each of us when He will cause us all to willingly agree to it and even desire it. WE MUST WAIT FOR HIM TO ACT.
Joe
Hi Joe,
What about all the instances in the OT where God desired to save people, and God chose to let their choice bind Him?
Aren't you re-writing scripture more than a little bit, to get it to fit into your private doctrine of what goes on after death?
Jeremiah 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that [are] upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed meet unto me.
Zechariah 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
What about all the instances in the OT where God desired to save people, and God chose to let their choice bind Him?
Aren't you re-writing scripture more than a little bit, to get it to fit into your private doctrine of what goes on after death?
Jeremiah 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that [are] upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed meet unto me.
Zechariah 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Here's a good scripture to consider.
3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true.
Romans 3:3-4 (NLT)
3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true.
Romans 3:3-4 (NLT)
Hi jiggyfly,
Isn't it just stating the obvious? (The obvious being:
that God will keep His word to destroy the unfaithful just as He will keep His word to save those who keep faith with Him.)
Isn't Paul also saying that God had to carry through His redemption plan regardless of how many men would receive Him. (Few there be... )
Isn't it just stating the obvious? (The obvious being:
that God will keep His word to destroy the unfaithful just as He will keep His word to save those who keep faith with Him.)
Isn't Paul also saying that God had to carry through His redemption plan regardless of how many men would receive Him. (Few there be... )
Dear Dragonfly,
You said:
What about all the instances in the OT where God desired to save people, and God chose to let their choice bind Him?
God was NOT trying to save people in the Old Testament. He chose the Nation of Israel to prove to mankind that we cannot follow the "law" and save ourselves. Until the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost, no man could be saved because everyone who tried fail short of His righteousness. Let me make this clear, no one who lived prior to Pentecost is going to be in Christ's church. You must "rightly divide the Word" between the law of Moses and the law of grace.
You said:
Aren't you re-writing scripture more than a little bit, to get it to fit into your private doctrine of what goes on after death?
I do not "re-write scripture to make it fit what I believe. I used to believe what you believe concerning the scriptures and I did so for the first 44 years of my life. I thought I had a high level of the knowledge of God. But after the Lord healed my spiritual vision, I realized that I knew nothing about Him. Once I was healed, the scriptures opened up to me and I quickly discovered that I was the "man of sin" that Paul described in his letters. I also learned about the true path to salvation that all mankind will travel someday. EVERYTHING that I knew before was a lie. Some are called and chosen to travel this path that leads to salvation in this age but most (99.9999%) will travel that path in the final age. The number in the true church is exceptionally small. I can't put a number on it but I believe it will not be in the millions. Concerning salvation for those in the final age, scripture says that the path that leads to Christ is narrow & very specific and won't be any different for those in that final age. God does not change nor does His path to salvation. Scripture is very clear that all mankind will indeed be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven someday. However, details of the new heaven and the new earth are not given to us in scripture. All we know is that Christ will not fail and that the path will be the same for them.
You quoted:
Jeremiah 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that [are] upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed meet unto me.
Zechariah 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
It is not within the power of mankind to hear and obey God without the power of the Holy Spirit. Those few that did try to obey were only successful as God empowered them. And God empowered them for His own purposes, not because there was anything good within those people. He simply chose them and blessed them for reasons of His own.
You quoted:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Once you understand the true path to salvation, you will understand that we all must be slayed and be destroyed. The Word of God is the sword that will slay them. Remember in John 6:63 Christ said His words are "spirit" and spiritual words are not to be understood literally. It takes spiritual "eyes and ears" that only Christ gives us in order for His words to be understood.
I just wrote a couple of posts in the debate forum on the thread entitled "Did Jesus order purchase of swords in Luk 22:36?". In my posts, I explained some statements that Christ made and how the true meaning of what He said differs with what He literally said. Maybe you have already read them. If not, you should. What I explained about the swords also applies to the verse you quoted above. Christ always spoke in spiritual language so that His meaning would be concealed. Here is the reason why He did this: Christ is not trying to save the world at this time. He is only trying to bring in the first fruits of the harvest - His true chruch. For the rest of mankind, Christ's plan is to bring them into the Kingdom of Heaven in the final age. That is why His Truth is hidden from the world and even from those who are only "called" to be saints. He does not want to save them at this time. Haven't you ever wondered why scripture is so difficult to understand and why Christ frequently said it was concealed or not given to the masses but only to those He chose? Doesn't it seem like Christ is not trying very hard to save everyone? Doesn't it seem like He could do a lot more and make His message clearer? To hear the "church" talk, they are constantly asking for money so that they can reach more people and save them. If you don't donate, then people are not going to be reached and will go to hell forever. That is such nonsense. Christ isn't limited by money or anything else that the "church" does or doesn't do. He is the Savior and knows exactly how and when He is going to save each and every one of us. The "church" is so spiritually blind that they are leading all their members and converts into the "ditch". No one that remains in the "church" is going to actually be in Christ's church. Only those that Christ chooses and calls out of the harlot, who spritually mature and remain faithful until the end, will be in His church. And Christ will make sure that those He chose ages ago will make it.
Those that He is going to save in this age have already been chosen since the foundation of the earth. He chose them and will do all that is necessary for them to successfully travel the narrow path. The "church" claims that He only has foreknowledge of those who, by their free will, will be saved into His church. That is not true. Christ does not look into the future and see who found salvation. Christ actually plans and chooses those who will be in His church. No man has any say in the matter. The only ones that will be in Christ's church are the ones He chose and as scripture says, He did the choosing "before the foundation of the world". As I have said before, we cannot save ourselves and we must wait for Christ to save us. And He has already set a time and a place for that to happen. It is all His work. He is the Savior of the world!
Joe
You said:
What about all the instances in the OT where God desired to save people, and God chose to let their choice bind Him?
God was NOT trying to save people in the Old Testament. He chose the Nation of Israel to prove to mankind that we cannot follow the "law" and save ourselves. Until the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost, no man could be saved because everyone who tried fail short of His righteousness. Let me make this clear, no one who lived prior to Pentecost is going to be in Christ's church. You must "rightly divide the Word" between the law of Moses and the law of grace.
You said:
Aren't you re-writing scripture more than a little bit, to get it to fit into your private doctrine of what goes on after death?
I do not "re-write scripture to make it fit what I believe. I used to believe what you believe concerning the scriptures and I did so for the first 44 years of my life. I thought I had a high level of the knowledge of God. But after the Lord healed my spiritual vision, I realized that I knew nothing about Him. Once I was healed, the scriptures opened up to me and I quickly discovered that I was the "man of sin" that Paul described in his letters. I also learned about the true path to salvation that all mankind will travel someday. EVERYTHING that I knew before was a lie. Some are called and chosen to travel this path that leads to salvation in this age but most (99.9999%) will travel that path in the final age. The number in the true church is exceptionally small. I can't put a number on it but I believe it will not be in the millions. Concerning salvation for those in the final age, scripture says that the path that leads to Christ is narrow & very specific and won't be any different for those in that final age. God does not change nor does His path to salvation. Scripture is very clear that all mankind will indeed be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven someday. However, details of the new heaven and the new earth are not given to us in scripture. All we know is that Christ will not fail and that the path will be the same for them.
You quoted:
Jeremiah 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that [are] upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed meet unto me.
Zechariah 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
It is not within the power of mankind to hear and obey God without the power of the Holy Spirit. Those few that did try to obey were only successful as God empowered them. And God empowered them for His own purposes, not because there was anything good within those people. He simply chose them and blessed them for reasons of His own.
You quoted:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Once you understand the true path to salvation, you will understand that we all must be slayed and be destroyed. The Word of God is the sword that will slay them. Remember in John 6:63 Christ said His words are "spirit" and spiritual words are not to be understood literally. It takes spiritual "eyes and ears" that only Christ gives us in order for His words to be understood.
I just wrote a couple of posts in the debate forum on the thread entitled "Did Jesus order purchase of swords in Luk 22:36?". In my posts, I explained some statements that Christ made and how the true meaning of what He said differs with what He literally said. Maybe you have already read them. If not, you should. What I explained about the swords also applies to the verse you quoted above. Christ always spoke in spiritual language so that His meaning would be concealed. Here is the reason why He did this: Christ is not trying to save the world at this time. He is only trying to bring in the first fruits of the harvest - His true chruch. For the rest of mankind, Christ's plan is to bring them into the Kingdom of Heaven in the final age. That is why His Truth is hidden from the world and even from those who are only "called" to be saints. He does not want to save them at this time. Haven't you ever wondered why scripture is so difficult to understand and why Christ frequently said it was concealed or not given to the masses but only to those He chose? Doesn't it seem like Christ is not trying very hard to save everyone? Doesn't it seem like He could do a lot more and make His message clearer? To hear the "church" talk, they are constantly asking for money so that they can reach more people and save them. If you don't donate, then people are not going to be reached and will go to hell forever. That is such nonsense. Christ isn't limited by money or anything else that the "church" does or doesn't do. He is the Savior and knows exactly how and when He is going to save each and every one of us. The "church" is so spiritually blind that they are leading all their members and converts into the "ditch". No one that remains in the "church" is going to actually be in Christ's church. Only those that Christ chooses and calls out of the harlot, who spritually mature and remain faithful until the end, will be in His church. And Christ will make sure that those He chose ages ago will make it.
Those that He is going to save in this age have already been chosen since the foundation of the earth. He chose them and will do all that is necessary for them to successfully travel the narrow path. The "church" claims that He only has foreknowledge of those who, by their free will, will be saved into His church. That is not true. Christ does not look into the future and see who found salvation. Christ actually plans and chooses those who will be in His church. No man has any say in the matter. The only ones that will be in Christ's church are the ones He chose and as scripture says, He did the choosing "before the foundation of the world". As I have said before, we cannot save ourselves and we must wait for Christ to save us. And He has already set a time and a place for that to happen. It is all His work. He is the Savior of the world!
Joe
Actually to answer this we have to go into the Hebrew and Greek texts and see what was really said, KJV failed to give accurate translation in many of the scripture texts. It is also very difficult to understand from the bias of the unending torment mindset. I have started a thread UR as requested so maybe this can be discussed there at some point. :)
Dear Jiggyfly,
I will try to post on your new thread on UR as the Lord is willing.
Thanks,
Joe
Why won't God force all men to be saved?
Well God's ways are high above our ways, so I don't have to understand why God would or wouldn't do something. However, in this case, I think its perfectly understandable: a love that is demanded is no love at all.... in other words, why would God want to have us be a bunch of robots? It's clear from Genisis to Revelation that God created man so that he might chose to love and follow Him. He even allows the world, the flesh (our sinful nature), and the devil to exist to test our resolve....so that our choice to follow the Lord isn't some flippant, half-hearted choice because there wasn't any other seemingly viable choices. My proof? The whole Bible! From the choice God gave Adam and Eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, to the choice God gives to the people in the end about the mark of the beast. From the warning God gave Cain (but he chose to murder his brother anyway) to the warnings God gives to the people in the end (but they will curse God and refuse to repent). The whole Bible is full of the Lord saying "this is the way, walk in it" and then tells of those who chose to obey, and those who chose not to.
Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD, - Proverbs 1:29 NIV
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. - 1 Peter 4:3 NIV
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15 NIV
I have yet to see anything in scripture that would indicate that in the end God is going to stop asking us to choose and start forcing everybody to love him.
Well God's ways are high above our ways, so I don't have to understand why God would or wouldn't do something. However, in this case, I think its perfectly understandable: a love that is demanded is no love at all.... in other words, why would God want to have us be a bunch of robots? It's clear from Genisis to Revelation that God created man so that he might chose to love and follow Him. He even allows the world, the flesh (our sinful nature), and the devil to exist to test our resolve....so that our choice to follow the Lord isn't some flippant, half-hearted choice because there wasn't any other seemingly viable choices. My proof? The whole Bible! From the choice God gave Adam and Eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, to the choice God gives to the people in the end about the mark of the beast. From the warning God gave Cain (but he chose to murder his brother anyway) to the warnings God gives to the people in the end (but they will curse God and refuse to repent). The whole Bible is full of the Lord saying "this is the way, walk in it" and then tells of those who chose to obey, and those who chose not to.
Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD, - Proverbs 1:29 NIV
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. - 1 Peter 4:3 NIV
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15 NIV
I have yet to see anything in scripture that would indicate that in the end God is going to stop asking us to choose and start forcing everybody to love him.
Dear jburic09032,
We are ALL going to willingly choose to follow Him. But God is the cause of us willingly choosing to do so. He will not force us. Why do you not believe these verses?
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
If you are married, do you love your wife? Doesn't she do things that cause you to love her? It is no different with God. He will reveal Himself to ALL mankind someday at each individual's appointed time. For now, God is hidden from the world and only reveals Himself to those He has chosen to be in His church. When He reveals Himself to the rest of mankind, they too will choose to love Him. God will give us all that is necessary for that to happen. Don't you know that until God draws us to Christ and gives us His Spirit, no man can love or know God. It is ALL His work. Right now, mankind is governed by a carnal mind that hates God. Only by Him giving us His Spirit does that change. The church receives His Spirit first (ego, the FIRST fruits of the harvest), in this age. But someday, He will do this for all mankind at the appointed time. There is no time limit on God's love and mercy. He is drawing the church to Him now. Later, in the final age (the end of the harvest), He will draw everyone else. It is not a forced choice. He will put all the factors in place that will cause us all to willingly want to follow Him and love Him. He just isn't doing it for all mankind now - He is only drawing and saving His church at this time. They are the FIRST fruits of the harvest - not the full harvest!
Joe
Hi! 'JoeInArkansas'
I have read this Thread with great interest and would like to contribute to it please.
But first of all, I sortta' chuckle to myself everytime I read the word 'Arkansas' because, being a Canadian, the pronunciation was very awkward for me. But a few years ago I attended a Conference in Arkansas and I learned two things ... well, three things:
1. Banjos of the Ozarks
2. Tickers ... those little bugs that burrow into your skin. I was driving down the highway after a rest-stop lunch in a small forest area, when I began to itch and noticed that there was some kinna' creature which had burrowed into my skin ... it was half-in-an-half-out. It scared the daylights out of me! So I raced down the highway and stopped at the first restaurant I saw and hurried in. I mussta' had a terribly frightened look on my face because the cashier near the door asked me what was wrong. So, I showed her the burrowing creature on my belly. She began to giggle and told me that there was some nail-polish remover in the bathroom and that brushing some on the bug would cause it to shrivel up an' die.
3. I learned that you don't pronounce Ark-kan-Saw as Ark-kan-SAS. :)
I couldn't resist telling you that true story.
Anyways, back to the Thread here:
Ummm, 'JoeInArkansas', I hope you don't mind me saying that some of your expressed opinions are not only unscriptural ... they border on being exceedingly irresponsible because they falsely accuse God of character traits which do not belong to Him.
But, for now, I'll just address your challenge as quoted above:
You wrote: "For most people, it seems impossible for Christ to actually save all of mankind. But as for me, I trust Him enough to believe He can accomplish all that He says He will do. Where is your faith to believe Him?"
It might surprise you, 'JoeInArkansas', but I absolutely agree with your testimony saying that nothing is impossible with God because it is in keeping with Luke 1:37
Your earnest to confess that the power of the Gospel of Jesus is able to save all of mankind is a laudable ... and, I commend you for it.
But you should know this one thing, 'JoeInArkansas' ... there is a single power which God cannot command ... it is love ... and that is the very thing that God desires; that a person comes to Him out of love for Him.
And there is one additional issue which God is unable to do:
To unlawfully steal away from Satan those who are/were employed by the evil one. Satan has every legal right and obligation to pay the wages of sin to everyone who became indebted to him.
This is because God is not only completely good and merciful and kind ... He is also completely just.
It could be said that God's love for us is restrained by His exceeding need to be just.
Jesus came to deliver us from the evil one; not steal us from the evil one.
The words of the Apostle Paul confirm this fact: "Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that leads to sin that leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness?” Again, we read: "Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him"; "Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience", (Rom 6:16; 4:4; Heb 2:2).
You are owned by the one you serve. God does not behave unjustly; He cannot steal back the rightful property of the evil one. If God could have justly compelled the evil one to return His property, the redeeming blood would have been unnecessary. This explains why it is that when evil incarnate enters the Lake of Fire, he is legally entitled to drag his possessions with him.
I would remind you of the Scripture saying, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame".
'JoeInArkansas', you too must make every effort not to put God's only good and perfect being to shame as well.
The Bible states that one must first determine that God exists before he can hope to receive anything from Him; “for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”, Hebrews 11:6.
For many years now, I've noticed that those who remain unable to find the true God of the Bible and thus unable to fully, "Worship Him in spirit and in truth", become increasingly desperate to extricate themselves from under the hypnotic stare of guilt and the 'wages of sin'.
Now, there are those who protest and say: "I believe God exists!" To which I reply, “The God whom you confess as being so utterly consumed by love that He has forfeited justice does not exist.
Neither does the God exist whom many have imagined in their fearful hearts as desiring to punish and heap revenge upon every living thing,
At first glance, it does appear that everyone is able to obtain for themselves an insurance policy fitting to their delusions.
Some hurried to adopt something akin to ‘celestial fire insurance’ which they claim is stamped with God’s official business trademark of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’. This apparently guarantees that they have become exempt from the prospect of being incinerated in an eternal hell-fire.
It’s all so neatly wrapped and decorated with the admonition, “Don’t worry! Be happy!”. ALL of mankind will be saved.
Some of the more emboldened even excitedly speak of a day when Satan himself will be ‘saved’. The arch enemy of both God and man is seen by these people to be as much a hapless victim of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’ as they perceive themselves to be.
Still others soon added a dubious 'Flood Insurance Policy' to their glory road. This allowed them to declare that Satan had already been made powerless and a defeated enemy. Evidently, all one has to do when holding a 'Flood Insurance Policy’ is to tread water and wait patiently for the end to come. They failed to discern that the flood of Noah's days is an image of the things that will happen in the latter days. At the flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.
The biblical flood is an image of the great tribulation. As Noah was saved in the visible world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. The spiritual life of the people who are not in Christ will then be completely overwhelmed by the powers of darkness. Jesus said: "Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken", (Luke 21:25-26)
There is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the the Bible. It does however implore us to, “take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. It speaks of those those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these will be able to overcome.
It mentions a struggle and describes how the people of God must have an armor which enables them to withstand in the evil day (Eph 6:13). Because then it will be power against power, Spirit against spirit, and miracle against miracle.
Before concluding, I want to add:
The lake of fire was not prepared for man but for the devils.
But when a man is united with an evil spirit, his end is where the evil spirit goes. If he is united with the Holy Spirit, he will be there where the Holy Spirit is, that is with God and his Son.
About those who are bound by evil powers, we should differentiate between the two categories: those who desire it and enjoy doing evil and those who resist, but in vain. Paul mentions the situation that man wishes to do good, while the power of evil prevails in him.
There are many who have never heard the Gospel and many more too who did not see the way to deliverance since it had not been clearly preached to them. Paul speaks of people who will be saved, yet suffer loss, (1Cor 31:5). To be saved "as through fire" means to be violently saved from the powers of darkness, the deliverance from which did not take place on earth in the name of Jesus. These, 'damaged' righteous, who hated sin, yet many times were compelled to do things which they did not want, will enter Sheol ... just as the Old Testament believers did, and just like them too, at their resurrection, they will be at the side of the 'blessed of the Father'.
Just like them they will find perfect healing at the trees of life (the faithful church) whose leaves (the spiritual gifts) are for the healing of the nations. In this way, the righteous of the Old and New covenant who did not receive what was promised (spiritual maturity), will be led to completion by the faithful church, (Heb 11:40).
All people, whether they call themselves Christians or not, who were indifferent towards the groaning of creation, who refused to succor the least of these, brethren, are in fact on the side of the realm of darkness. The destructive and lawless powers of sin and sickness, of poverty and injustice did not impress them and failed to create compassion. Their only goal is to have a good time on earth and to grab what they can. Their lives do not show a hunger and thirst for righteousness. Concerning these indifferent people the bible says: "The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever", while the righteous are able to say full of
"To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!", (Rev 14:11 and Rev 513).In both cases the words 'for ever and ever' have the same power. There is no universal atonement, because the devil is evil in nature. It is impossible to cast the devil out of the devil, neither can he be delivered from the evil one! Similarly it is impossible to set free someone who has deliberately and knowingly chosen to do the works of the devil.
To some people trusting God is not using one's brain and thinking God is obligated to make up the difference...trusting God is realizing that no matter what state you are in God holds your life in his hands,he gave us the bible overflowing with advice and counsel...will God perfom miricales ? absolutely,when it suits his purposes and is what an individual needs at the tme...why is it that people choose to ignore God's warnings and advice about how to live life.The devil tempted Jesus by telling him to throw himself off a high place because God would save him....it figures the Devil would say that.
True Strat, but if God is going to "make us love Him whether we like it or not" according to Joe, then there is no need to trust God. Trusting God is just a phrase with no meaning. No need to trust Him, since we will all be saved regardless whether we "trust" Him or not. Maybe, Joe means that God is going to make people trust Him along with making people love Him.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Axehead
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Axehead
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