What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[BreadOfLife]

Right.
The ALIVE pray for the ALIVE.
That's what FOR ONE ANOTHER means.
Study up on your English language.

Using different colors does not make you be correct.

Then YOU need to exegete Rev. 4:8, where it explicitky says that Elders in Heaven (the “dead”) intercede on our behalf:
Rev. 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Right.
They were still ALIVE too.

Yup - just like Moses (Matt. 17:4) . . . and the Saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) . . .and all of the souls under the altar in Heaven (Rev. 6:9-11) . . . and Mary (Rev. 12:1) . . .

What has that got to do with our "discussion"?
I quoted that Jesus taught us to pray
OUR FATHER....Who art in heaven....etc.

NOT to dead people.

And, as I educated you – Jesus was teaching about a very specific type of prayer that included praise, worship and petitions directed to God.
Intercessory pray includes petitions for intercession.

I even gave you a dictionary explanation of BOTH definitions.

You teach me so much Bread.
Thank God you're here to finish off what's left of the CC.

So....saints have limits.
WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT of my reply to you.
I THOUGHT YOU knew what finite means,,,,but apparently you had to look it up.

Whatever power they DO have is ONLY through Jesus Christ.

Don’t you ever tire of being wrong??

This is my last post to you.
Time for my milk and cookies!

You’ve told this LIE before – yet you never seem to be able to follow through . . .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Right.
The ALIVE pray for the ALIVE.
That's what FOR ONE ANOTHER means.
Study up on your English language.

Using different colors does not make you be correct.


Right.
They were still ALIVE too.


What has that got to do with our "discussion"?
I quoted that Jesus taught us to pray
OUR FATHER....Who art in heaven....etc.

NOT to dead people.

You teach me so much Bread.
Thank God you're here to finish off what's left of the CC.

So....saints have limits.
WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT of my reply to you.
I THOUGHT YOU knew what finite means,,,,but apparently you had to look it up.

This is my last post to you.
Time for my milk and cookies!

So, the objection is that Mary’s ability, really all the saints, but especially Mary’s ability to hear so many prayers all at once would make her omniscient or all knowing, but only God is all knowing. So, Catholics would be guilty of idolatry, treating Mary as being a deity. A fair number of Protestants have made this objection. The televangelist Jimmy Swaggart asks, “How can finite beings hear the prayers of men who are on this earth? The only way they could hear so many thousands of prayers and discern the heart attitudes of all these people is if they were both omniscient and omnipresent. In other words, each saint would have to be God in order to accomplish this.” Eric Svendsen, in his book Evangelical Answers, makes a similar objection. “In order to hear all those prayers at once, she would have to be omniscient, all knowing, an attribute that is the property of God alone.”

First, even if you use a restricted definition of omniscience, like having all knowledge, Mary would not need to have all knowledge to answer so many prayers. Mary doesn’t need to know the location of every atom in the observable universe. She doesn’t need to know the 100 trillion digits of pi that have been calculated so far. Her knowledge would be a tiny fraction of what God knows about the physical universe. Her knowledge would be finite and thus within the realm of what a creature can know.

In response, Svendsen says this, “One may as well argue that omniscience is not needed, even by God himself, since all things that can be known, no matter how many, are nevertheless limited to a finite number.” So, Svendsen’s argument is that if the large amount of knowledge of Mary and the saints in heaven is still finite and so they are not omniscient, then that means God isn’t omniscient either because his knowledge is finite. But Svendsen’s wrong.

The traditional definition of omniscience means having unlimited or infinite knowledge. God knows all truths, and there are an infinite number of those when you factor in mathematical truths, propositional truths, and if you hold to this view, counterfactual truths, truths about the worlds God could have made but did not make. In light of that possible knowledge, what people pray for on earth is almost nothing in comparison to God’s infinite knowledge. So, the saints, the knowledge they have, comes nowhere close to omniscience.

So, the objection is that Mary’s ability, really all the saints, but especially Mary’s ability to hear so many prayers all at once would make her omniscient or all knowing, but only God is all knowing. So, Catholics would be guilty of idolatry, treating Mary as being a deity. A fair number of Protestants have made this objection. The televangelist Jimmy Swaggart asks, “How can finite beings hear the prayers of men who are on this earth? The only way they could hear so many thousands of prayers and discern the heart attitudes of all these people is if they were both omniscient and omnipresent. In other words, each saint would have to be God in order to accomplish this.” Eric Svendsen, in his book Evangelical Answers, makes a similar objection. “In order to hear all those prayers at once, she would have to be omniscient, all knowing, an attribute that is the property of God alone.”

First, even if you use a restricted definition of omniscience, like having all knowledge, Mary would not need to have all knowledge to answer so many prayers. Mary doesn’t need to know the location of every atom in the observable universe. She doesn’t need to know the 100 trillion digits of pi that have been calculated so far. Her knowledge would be a tiny fraction of what God knows about the physical universe. Her knowledge would be finite and thus within the realm of what a creature can know.

That would mean the devil has the superhuman ability to track billions of human beings and their unique temptations all at the same time. Why would God be unable to give his friends an ability to pray for each person that the devil individually tempts? The fact that the devil is able to afflict so many human beings at once does not prove the devil is divine. In fact, I remember a debate between Patrick Madrid and James White over prayer to the saints, and an audience member asked White how the devil can tempt so many people, if such knowledge would make someone divine.

This is for Dr. White. If Mary and the other saints supposedly can’t handle those prayers from us on earth because they’re not God, how is it then possible for Satan to be tempting all of us as constantly and consistently as he does? Do you believe Satan to be omniscient?
No, it’s through his demons.
Mr. Madrid, do you have a response?
He asked me to be succinct.

Well, I think that what we just saw here is a clear example of dodging a bullet because that question was right on target. In other words, the devil is a creature. St. Peter tells us in his second epistle that Satan is like a roaring lion prowling around. He doesn’t say Satan and his crew. Satan, himself, the devil. So, there is a unique and personal quality to the temptation that Satan, the individual being himself, carries out. The questioner was absolutely right. This is something that’s going on on a global scale, affecting billions of people, and Jim simply just dodged the bullet by saying, “Oh, well, it’s his demons doing it.” Everyone in the room, I think, understands the force of the question, that it’s a creature performing an unbelievable action that we can’t understand how it could be done, but the fact is this creature is capable of doing it. The extension of that thought is that the saints in heaven, even more so because they are in Christ and through His grace, are capable of doing astounding things.

Next question.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

So, according to White, the devil doesn’t really tempt each of us. He’s just like a CEO that has his employees do it for him. Now, I admit, some CEOs might be a helpful analogy for the devil, but even in this case, the devil would have to have knowledge far beyond what humans know in order to manage such an operation. But the traditional view makes more sense, that the devil has an intimate knowledge of what tempts us, and so he personally seeks each of our downfalls, which is why God has given knowledge and power to various creatures, like our guardian angels or the saints in heaven, to protect and pray for us.

I also found this clip of White making the claim that Mary has no idea people are seeking her intercession on earth because that would cause her unbearable sadness that has no place in heaven.

I can tell you, I’ve said this to a number of Roman Catholics, and I’ll say it to @GodsGrace , you need to understand something. Mary does not have a clue that anyone on this planet has ever tried to pray to her because it would break her heart. Once you are at rest in Christ, the tears are wiped away. You’re not up there in heaven suffering because billions of people are trying to pray to you. She has no idea that it’s ever happened. God would not make her suffer in that way.

Of course, this assumes that asking the saints for any help constitutes blasphemy, which just isn’t true. But let’s assume that some people do idolize Mary. Saint Epiphanius describes an early heretical sect called the Collyridians. They offered cakes to Mary as sacrificial worship, which is wrong. You can only give that to the trinity. Mary and the saints may be aware of blasphemies people commit, and they pray for them to repent. The Bible even describes saints in heaven being aware of evil on earth, making a request to God about it, and interceding with human prayers.

Revelation 6:9-11 describes it this way,

“John, the evangelist, sees the following in heaven. I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, ‘Oh, sovereign Lord, holy and true. How long before thou will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’ Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.”​

Notice that the martyrs in heaven are aware of persecution happening on the earth and that they will know this persecution will still happen until a certain number of fellow martyrs have joined them. They also make a request, or a prayer to God, on behalf of those who are being persecuted. Revelation 5:8 describes saints in heaven when it talks about how, “24 elders fell down before the lamb, each holding a harp and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Here’s a clip from the Protestant author, Randy Alcorn, who makes a unique argument for the ability of the saints in heaven to at least know what is happening on the earth. Alcorn believes we should not seek the saint’s intercession, but he’s quite optimistic about the saints knowing what is happening on earth and consequently them being able to pray for us as a result.

You look at Luke chapter 15 where Jesus says there’s rejoicing in the presence of the angels when a sinner repents. It doesn’t say the angels rejoice. It could easily say the angels rejoice. It doesn’t say that. I’m sure they do rejoice, but it’s saying there’s rejoicing in the presence of the angels when a sinner on earth rejoices, I mean, repents. So, how do they know that the sinner on earth has repented? They have to know about it in order to rejoice. Who are those people in the presence of the angels? I think it’s the people of God. It’s the part of the body of Christ that’s already gone home. They maybe prayed for years for that person. They see that that person repented. There’s rejoicing in the very presence of the angels, where the people of God are, when someone down on earth repents.

This makes perfect sense of what Jesus says in Luke 15. “There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.” And, “There is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” This could mean the joy is solely among or before the angels, but I see no reason to restrict it to them and not to saints in heaven. In this passage, Jesus is responding to the grumbling of the Pharisees over his outreach to notorious sinners like prostitutes. They would not rejoice over those sinners repenting, but Jesus says that is not what will happen in the kingdom of heaven. If this rejoicing only took place among the angels and not the saints who could still be as heartless as the Pharisees, it would really diminish the force of Jesus’s argument.

In fact, another passage that provides evidence the saints are aware of what is happening on earth can be found in chapter 11 of the letter to the Hebrews. In this passage, the author describes heroes of Israel’s past like Abraham and Moses, whose faith allowed them to perform amazing feats for God and his people. Then in Hebrews 12:1, immediately after, the author concludes his description with this appeal. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.”

Now, some interpretations reduce the cloud to being stories of faith that are witnesses to us, examples of how to live out a faith-filled life. Other interpretations might say that they are witnesses of God and Christ by their faith, but these interpretations neglect the race imagery the author of Hebrews is using. He depicts living Christians as those who are running a race, an imitation of Jesus who ran it and then sat down in heaven.

The Protestant scholar, William Barclay, says of this passage, “Christians are like runners in some crowded stadium. As they press on, the crowd looks down, and the crowd looking down are those who have already won the crown.” But even if the saints know about our struggles, why should we think it’s okay to ask for their intercession?

First, we should not assume a devotional practice is wrong unless there is an example of it in scripture. The Bible never describes people praying directly to the Holy Spirit, for example. But there’s nothing wrong with praying, “Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love.” To say it’s wrong, since the Bible does not describe the practice, would impose the un-biblical doctrine of sola scriptura on Christian freedom. But doesn’t the Bible say we should not talk to the dead? Our old friend, Greg at Bible Flock Box, is a fan of this objection.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 11 condemns spiritists, mediums, and calling up the dead. This means that Christians shouldn’t pray to Mary or the saints, like the Catholic Church does, because that’s a form of spiritism.

Now, the catechism says, “All forms of divination are to be rejected, recourse to Satan or demons conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to unveil the future.” This would be necromancy, but seeking the intercession of the saints is not necromancy. Asking the saints to pray for us just involves sharing personal requests through prayer. Necromancy involves using magic or occult practices to extract information from the dead. If it were always wrong to talk to the dead, Jesus would be guilty of this sin when he spoke to Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, since Moses had died centuries earlier.

According to my colleague, Jimmy Aiken, the fact that necromancy was for purposes of gaining information is made clear by the Hebrew terms for medium, spirit inquirer, wizard, a spiritist; and necromancer, an inquirer of the dead. The focus on gaining information is also made clear by the context in Deuteronomy, which specifies that God will send His people prophets instead of allowing them to use mediums, wizards, and necromancers. So, since seeking the intercession of the saints is only one way communication, not two-way, it’s not the sin of necromancy.
SOURCE

 

[GodsGrace]

Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 11 condemns spiritists, mediums, and calling up the dead. This means that Christians shouldn’t pray to Mary or the saints, like the Catholic Church does, because that’s a form of spiritism.

Now, the catechism says, “All forms of divination are to be rejected, recourse to Satan or demons conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to unveil the future.” This would be necromancy, but seeking the intercession of the saints is not necromancy. Asking the saints to pray for us just involves sharing personal requests through prayer. Necromancy involves using magic or occult practices to extract information from the dead. If it were always wrong to talk to the dead, Jesus would be guilty of this sin when he spoke to Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, since Moses had died centuries earlier.

According to my colleague, Jimmy Aiken, the fact that necromancy was for purposes of gaining information is made clear by the Hebrew terms for medium, spirit inquirer, wizard, a spiritist; and necromancer, an inquirer of the dead. The focus on gaining information is also made clear by the context in Deuteronomy, which specifies that God will send His people prophets instead of allowing them to use mediums, wizards, and necromancers. So, since seeking the intercession of the saints is only one way communication, not two-way, it’s not the sin of necromancy.
SOURCE

Do you mean all this to be for me?
You better cut it down to a couple of paragraphs because I'm not able yo respond to such a long post. No time.

Also it seems like you don't understand what I'm saying....

Also, you're not going to tell me anything I don't know.

I had mentioned that I'd be interested in knowing more about the assumption. But I'm still conflicted about that.

And, may I say, that Bread and Mary are not helping the CC but creating more distrust.
I do hope you don't go down that path.

 

[ReChoired]

Then YOU need to exegete Rev. 5:8, where it explicitky says that Elders in Heaven (the “dead”) intercede on our behalf:
Rev. 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Those are not human beings. Those are heavenly angelic beings. They existed before this world existed. In scripture, they are called the "ancients" (“ancients” / elders; see also, Jhn. 11:9; Gen. 1:4, 35:22; Eze. 18:25,29; Mat. 10:2; Luk. 6:13, 22:14; Rev. 21:12-14,21; Gal. 4:26; Rev. 3:12, 21:2,10,25, 22:5,19) of the unfallen worlds (Heb. 1:2, 11:3; Mat. 6:10, 18:11-13; Luk. 11:2, 15:4-7; Jhn. 14:1-3; Rev. 12:12).

“elders” = “ancients”/”old”, “grayheaded”, also indicates “overseer”, leading positions.

24 elders = strong angels, leaders of the unfallen worlds, and are NOT human, but existed before earth was created. - Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4; Isaiah 24:23 (ancients), see also Ezekiel 8:15-17, 11:1-2. See also the type in the OT on earth, which mirrored that which existed in Heaven - Numbers 1:50-53, 2:2-34, 3:17,23,29,35,38; Deuteronomy 1:15; 1 Chronicles 27:1-15; Matthew 6:10; Luke 11:2 (“… Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.”) KJB.

1. They already have crowns. The saints (human) of God, do not get those until their resurrection/translation. 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4, see also Hebrews 2:7,9; 2 Timothy 2:5, as Jesus received His Crown.​

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2. They are already wearing white robes, never given them. Sinless (Matthew 18:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 15:7 KJB).​

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3. They do not ever appear in Revelation with victory Palms, but only the human saints who were resurrected and translated do.​

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4. We know who they are NOT – They are not the Apostles (12 or Paul), and John is the one writing Revelation on the Isle of Patmos. They are not any of Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, or any of the 12 Sons of Jacob/Israel, David, since they are still deceased in the first death, and not resurrected (see Hebrews 11, Abraham and the others are still waiting in the grave. See also Acts 2:29,34 for King David). The only persons of mankind that are alive and in Heaven at that time is Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and the “firstfruits” (who came back with Jesus), but these “elders” are already present when Jesus arrives with the “captivity”.​

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5. Some try to link the special resurrection (“firstfruits”) around Jerusalem, in Matthew 27:50-53, when Jesus resurrected, to these '24'. Yet, we are never told in any location exactly who or how many were in that special resurrection, and there is no indication of young or old – see Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23; Isaiah 26:19.​

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6. Neither Jesus, nor the specially resurrected saints from Jerusalem, nor even the common 'angels' are seen in Revelation 4, at all. It is only the Father, the 4 Beasts (Living Creatures) and the 24 Elders/Ancients, which are all already present before Jesus even shows up with 'victory train’ of mankind and cloud of angels.​

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7. Jesus shows up, along with the angels in Revelation 5, after which we were already introduced to the 24 Elders/Ancients in Revelation 4.​

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8. The “thrones” (principalities, powers, etc) of Heaven, already existed before earth was even created, see also John 14:1-3 (a place, which was vacant by the angels which left their first estate/(arch)offices); Matthew 18:10-14; Luke 15:3-7; Revelation 12:12; Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Job 1:6, 2:1; 1 Kings 22:19-24; 2 Chronicles 18:18-23; Colossians 1:6; Isaiah 14:13; etc., KJB.​

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9. The 24 Elders have in their hands the “incense” “with” the “prayers of the saints”, which means they are praying/singing (ministering) on behalf of someone else, see that Angels, etc carry prayer to heaven, Daniel 9:21-23, 10:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:34, and see that Angels are “ministering spirits” - Hebrews 1:7,14; Psalms 104:4, and thus connect with Revelation 5:8-11. This is just as Jesus speaks on behalf of the Father (and comes in the name of the Father), and the Holy Ghost speaks on behalf of Jesus (ie, comes in the name of Jesus).​

What then about the “crowns” that the 24 Elders wear, are they not a “stephanos” (a victory crown)? They are “stephanos”, but this can simply mean a crown worn, though it can also mean a victory crown (didn't Jesus also win the victory for the heavenly beings also? Rejoice ye heavens, etc, Revelation 12), see also Revelation 9:7, wherein the 'locust' also have something like a 'crown' (stephanos). See also Origen's Hexapla, wherein it is just a crown, see Origen's Hexapla 2 Samuel 12:30; 1 Chronicles 20:2; Esther 8:15; Psalms 21:3, 65:11; Proverbs 1:9, 4:9; Job 19:9, 31:36; Ezekiel 16:12, 21:31, 23:42; Isaiah 22:18,21; Song of Solomon 3:11; Psalms 102:4, and see also Origen's Hexapla - 1 Maccabees 10:20, 13:37,39; Sirach 6:31, 15:6, 32:2, 40:4, 45:12, etc. The other worlds also had tests similar to that of Adam. They never sinned.

Yes, they do carry the prayers of the saints, as angels take the prayers of men to God, see Daniel 9:21-23, 10:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:34, and see that Angels are “ministering spirits” - Hebrews 1:7,14; Psalms 104:4.

They also never died, or lived on earth. They are alive in Heaven.

Mary, King David, Abraham, and others are dead and in the grave: Both Paul and Peter (he on Pentecost filled with the Holy Ghost giving evidence from the Psalms as proof):

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:​

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.​

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,​

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Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:​

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.​

 

[ReChoired]

Yup - just like Moses (Matt. 17:4) . . .

Moses, died, was buried by Jesus/Michael (the Son of the Father), and resurrected by him and taken to heaven (alive):

QUESTION: ARE THERE ANY PERSONS OF MANKIND IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW?

Yes, but they were either “translated” alive (not dead, see study on what happens in death) and glorified, or resurrected (made alive) and glorified and taken up or ascended.

[1.] Enoch (translated alive & glorified; Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5),​

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[2.] Moses (resurrected & glorified; Num. 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deu. 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Sam. 2:6; Mat. 22:32; Jhn. 11:25-26; Mat. 17:1-12; Mar. 9:1-13; Luk. 9:27-36; 2 Pet. 1:16; Rom. 5:14; Jud. 1:9),​

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[3.] Elijah (translated & glorified; 2 Kin. 2:1-12),​

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[4.] ‘firstfruits’ around Jerusalem (resurrected & glorified; Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; Compare Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Act. 1.),​

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[5] Jesus Himself (resurrected, glorified & ascended; Mat. 28:6; Mar. 16:6; Luk. 24:6; Rev. 12:5, &c).​

That’s it, for now, until Jesus returns and resurrects the sleeping saints, and translates alive the living (1 Thes. 4:13-18; Jhn. 14:2-3).

Isaiah 26:19 KJB - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[ReChoired]

and all of the souls under the altar in Heaven (Rev. 6:9-11)

Let us now consider this Prophetic and Symbolic/Signified - Rev. 1:1, Passage in its proper context, which is the 7 Seals, "And when he had opened the fifth seal ...", Rev. 6:9

Should we have to go over the first four "Seals" to understand they are given in Symbols, that we might understand earthly events?

The Fifth Seal is no different, for it refers to events on Earth. How do we know? The context. The texts reads that these "souls" were "under the Altar" - Rev. 6:9.

Question. According to the Scriptures, which Altar is this, the one in the Courtyard, or the Holy Place?

It is the one in the Courtyard. How do we know? Context. For the blood of the first group of Martyrs mentioned in it, was poured out at the base of that altar, just as it is given us:

And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Leviticus 4:18​

"And the priest shall ... shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar." Leviticus 4:30​

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And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 4:34​

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And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it [is] a sin offering. Leviticus 5:9​

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And he slew [it]; and Moses took the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it. Leviticus 8:15​

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And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 9:9​

That Altar of Burnt Offering, in which the Blood was poured out at the base, upon the earth, was in the Courtyard, which represents the Earth, where Christ Jesus died. See Exo. 40:29, etc.

Therefore, the symbolism is pointing to the reality of Earthly events, not Heaven ones.

The Souls under The Altar cannot be understood, unless the structure, timing, language, types and symbols of the Scriptures be understood. The Altar deals with the portion of the Sanctuary and the service of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. The timing of the events listed in the 5th seal, are two fold, namely there are two groups mentioned. One group that has already died/martyred in the past, during the 1,260, and one group yet future to be so, coming soon. The second group is picked up in Revelation 20:4, as those "beheaded", and this prophecy event has yet to occur. The language itself also needs to be carefully considered, for there are similar passages in scripture.

The 5th Church, 5th Seal and 5th Trumpets are unique in their scope, as they are backward and forward looking from their point. They are connectors from the transition of the 4th and 6th of those things.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9​

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4​

See also Revelation 6:10-11 for context between the two verses.

In the first text we see that there were those "slain for":

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[A1] "the word of God"​

[B1] "the testimony [G3141] which they held"​

In the second text we see that there will be those "beheaded for":

[B2] "the witness ["testimony" G3141] of Jesus"​

[A2] "the word of God"​

In Revelation 6:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9​

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And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 6:10​

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And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11​

We are dealing with symbols, as we have been in the previous 4 seals Revelation 6:1-8. We are not looking at literal people stuck under a giant sanctuary fixture somewhere.

We see these "crying" out, we must understand this, that their martyred selves, by their shed blood upon the earth cries out for Justice, even as Abel's was spilled to the ground:

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10​

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And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24​

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That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:35​

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From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Luke 11:51​

Other things also "cry out" in scripture, but are not actually alive:

For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. Habakkuk 2:11​

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And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40​

Other things also "cry out":

My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. Psalms 84:2

Now notice that these are dead, and that they, by their shed blood, in which was the Life - John 15:13, see also Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11,14; Deuteronomy 12:23;, etc, are symbolically crying out for justice, even as Abels Blood shed from the foundation of the world, and they should "rest" [sleep of death in the grave] a little season longer "until" something was to happen... and that something is the slaying of the rest of the martyrs in the end, and will be vindicated in the Resurrection.

Rest/Sleep:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

Do they have crowns yet according to the Symbolism and Prophecy? No.

Notice also the question, "How long..." must they wait so? and a simple search will yield many answers in the OT/NT about this:

If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13​

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If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14​

When will God avenge them? Not until the other group of Martyrs comes, and them God will avenge both groups together, in the 7 last plagues -

"...rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:11​

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For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16:6​

After those things, comes Jesus, and the Resurrection to awaken the saints from the dust of the earth where they were asleep and waiting, knowing nothing. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[ReChoired]

and Mary (Rev. 12:1) . . .

Catholic "assumptions" are very hillarious. The text doesn't say "Mary" you funny funny guy, you. :)

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:​

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.​

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​

Is there a "datgon" (devil) up there in your 'Mary-heaven'? Is there a pregnant 'Mary' there in 'catholic imaginary land'?

“a great wonder” – Truly God’s miracles are a sign of His glorious and beautiful character of love; see Deut. 3:24, 4:34, 6:22, 7:19, 26:8, 29:3; Jos. 24:17; Neh. 9:17; Job. 9:10; Psa. 136:4; Jer. 32:21; Dan. 4:3; Mat. 9:8, 15:31; Mar. 2:12; Luk. 5:26, 7:16, 13:13, 17:15, 23:47; Jhn. 6:2, 11:4, 13:31-32; Act. 2:19, 3:11-13, 4:21, 6:8, 11:18; Gal. 1:24; 2 Thes. 1:12; 1 Pet. 4:14, etc.

“in heaven” – Truly a miracle of God that any person of ‘mankind’ is ‘in heaven’ at all because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), but through the grace, love and promise of God in Christ Jesus (Gen. 3:15,21), mankind was to be redeemed, and though it was given for all (Jhn. 3:16), only a remnant who believed, grasping the promise by living faith and not letting go, appropriating it to themselves, would be saved; see Mat. 6:21; Luk. 12:34; Phi. 3:20; Col. 3:1-3; Heb. 12:23, and (‘in heaven’, Canaan, the promised land, a symbol of the real promised land, Heavenly Canaan); see 1 Cor. 10:6,11; Gen. 17:8; Exo. 20:12; 1 Chr. 16:18; Psa. 105:11, etc.)

“a woman” (faithful) – God’s people ((OT) Israel or (NT) Christians), flock, church, a body, bone of the man’s (Adam; Gen. 2:23; 1 Cor. 15:44-46) bone and flesh of His flesh, and the city (Mat. 12:10-11) in which they reside (New Jerusalem); see Jer. 6:2; Isa. 54:5, 61:10, 62:5 ; Act. 7:38; 1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 11:2; Gal. 4:26; Eph. 5:23-32; Rev. 19:7, 21:2-3,9; see also Jesus as the “bridegroom” – Mat. 9:15, 25:1,5-6,10; Mar. 2:19-20; Luk. 5:34-35; Jhn. 2:9, 3:29; Rev. 18:23; Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11; Joe. 2:16 and Song of Solomon (entire); see also (unfaithful) Jer. 3:14,20; Hos. 1:2, 2:2, etc.

“clothed with” (not naked (a symbol of shame/sin; Gen 3:7-11; Isa. 47:3; Eze. 16:8; Hos. 2:9; Nah. 3:5; Rev. 3:18, for we are warned not to uncover our ‘Mother’s” (Gal. 4:26) nakedness in Lev. 18)) – The character [righteous or unrighteous, rich or poor, depending upon context, etc, and color also affects the character, like White is Purity/Righteousness, Blue is Law/Commandments, Red is Sin/Sacrifice; Purple is Royalty, Lambskin is Christ's Character or Righteousness, Goatskin is the symbol for sin, etc], see Gen. 3:7,21, 35:2; Exo. 28:2,4; Ecc. 9:8; Isa. 52:1, 59:6,17, 61:3,10, 63:2-3, 64:6; Eze. 16:16; Joe. 2:13; Zec. 3:3-5; Gal. 3:27; Tit. 2:10; Rev. 3:4,17, 16:15 [compare to the Garden of Gethsemane, when the disciples forsook Jesus, Mar. 14:51-52], 19:14

“the sun” – The Great Light in the 2nd Heaven, the day star, the morning star, which gives light, warmth, being glorious, and represents God, even Jesus Christ, the Everlasting Gospel and the New Testament/Covenant; see Gen. 1:15-19; Num. 24:17; Psa. 72:17, 84:11, 89:36; Ecc. 11:7; Son. 6:10; Isa. 2:5, 5:20, 8:20, 30:6, 60:1,3,19-20; Jer. 31:35; Mic. 3:6; Mal. 4:2; Mat. 4:16, 13:43, 17:2; Luk. 1:79; Jhn. 1:4-9, 3:21, 8:12, 9:5, 12:35-36,46; Act. 9:3; 2 Cor. 4:4-6; Eph. 5:13-14; 2 Pet. 1:19; 1 Jhn. 2:8; Rev. 1:16, 2:28, 10:1, 21:11,23, 22:5,16.

“the moon” – The lesser light, ruling the night, being for “signs”, “seasons”, which reflects the light of the Sun, reflecting the glory of God (like unto the Sea of Glass, Rev. 4:6, 15:2), and is also representative of the Old Testament, along with the Shadows/Types, being a faithful witness, likened unto a mother of Israel, and is ‘a rock’; see Gen. 1:15-19, 37:9; Exo. 33:21; Deut. 33:14; Job. 31:26; Psa. 81:3, 89:37, 121:6; Son. 6:10; Isa. 8:18, 30:26, 60:19; Eze. 46:4; Luk. 6:48, 24:27; Act. 2:43, 5:12, 8:13, 14:3; Rom. 15:19; 1 Cor. 10:11; 2 Cor. 12:12; Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 2:4

“under her feet” – The way in which a person walks, either in the light or in darkness, in the truth or in error, walking with God or away from God, walking in His ways or the ways of another, and this “woman” is seen standing upon the firm “moon”, the very word of God, even the ‘rock’ Christ Jesus, the “faithful witness”, the foundation of the Old Testament which points forward using symbols, shadows and types unto Christ Jesus the reality; see Gen. 5:22,24, 6:9, 17:1; Exo. 16:14, 18:20, 32:8; Lev. 18:3-4, 20:23, 26:3,21; Deut. 5:33, 8:6,19, 10:12, 11:22,28, 13:4-5, 19:9; 2 Sam. 22:37; 1 Ki. 8:25, 15:3, 16:26; 2 Chr. 6:16; Job. 31:7; Psa. 18:36, 73:2, 86:11, 115:7, 119:3,45; Pro. 21:16; Luk. 6:48; Jhn. 8:12, 11:9-10, 12:35; Act. 14:16, 21:21; 1 Cor. 3:11; 2 Tim. 2:19.

“upon her head” – Leadership or Rulership, Authority and also in Subjection, as Christ Jesus is “head” of the “body” the Church, and the Father is the Head of Christ or as a symbol of reward, as in favour (Gen. 48:17; Job. 29:3; Psa. 133:2) or disfavour (Gen. 40:17; 2 Sam. 1:16; 1 Ki. 2:33,37, 8:32; 2 Chr. 6:23; Neh. 4:4; Est. 9:25; Psa. 7:16; Jer. 2:37, 23:19, 30:23; Eze. 9:10, 16:43, 33:4; Joe. 3:4,7; Amo. 8:10; Oba. 1:15) from God; see Exo. 29:26; 1 Chr. 29:11; Est. 2:17, 6:8; Pro. 10:6, 11:26; Isa. 51:11, 59:17; Eze. 16:12; Zec. 3:5; Mat. 27:29; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 4:15, 5:23; Col. 1:18, 2:10; Rev. 14:14, 19:12.

“a crown” – Rulership, leadership, authority, dominion, kings, emperors, queens, heads of state, exalted, royalty, victorious, knowledge of wisdom; see Lev. 21:22; Est. 2:17; Job. 19:19; Isa. 28:5, 62:3; Psa. 8:5; Pro. 4:9, 12:4, 14:18; Son. 3:11; Lam. 5:16; Eze. 21:26; Mat. 27:29; 2 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:9.

“of 12” – Service, Victory over self (Israel; OT – 12 patriarchs & NT – 12 disciples/apostles; prince or overcomer with God) and always being about the Father’s business, rulership (Est. 9:1; as the 12 hours in the day/night; Jhn. 11:9), purification (Est. 2:12), and 6 + 6 were the two stacks of the shewbread, a place for the Father and Son (Lev. 24:5-6); see: Gen. 14:4, 42:13; 1 Ki. 4:7, 18:31; 1 Chr. 25:6,9-31; 2 Chr. 34:3; Neh. 5:14; Eze. 47:12; Mat. 10:5-10; Mar. 3:14-15, 9:35; Luk. 2:42,49, 9:1-2; Jhn. 18:36; Act. 26:7; Jam. 1:1; Rev. 7:3,4-8, 22:2.

“stars” – (12 stars, are a united constellation, a unifed unit) the re-created peoples (multitudes) of God, also Angels, messengers as shining lights to the world which shone in the night, exalted in the heavens; for signs; see Gen. 1:16, 15:5, 22:17, 26:4, 37:9; Exo. 32:13; Deut. 1:10, 10:22, 28:62; Judg. 5:20; 1 Chr. 27:23; Neh. 4:21, 9:23; Job. 3:9, 9:9, 22:12, 38:7,31; Psa. 8:3, 136:9, 147:4, 148:3; Isa. 13:10, 14:13; Jer. 31:35; Dan. 10:8, 12:3; Joe. 2:10, 3:15; Amo. 5:8,26; Oba. 1:4; Mat. 2:2,7,9-10; Luk. 21:25; Jhn. 1:8, 5:35; Act. 7:43; 1 Cor. 15:41; Heb. 11:12; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 1:16,20, 2:1, 3:1, 8:10,12, 9:1, 12:4,7,8,9.

“she being with child” – Pregnant with the Messiah/Christ, the field having received the ‘seed’ (as of a mustard seed) of faith (Mat. 13:31, 17:20; Mar. 4:31; Luk. 13:19. 17:6), who when given (new) ‘birth’ (character of Christ formed within) to, bearing ‘fruit’ (Exo. 21:22; Gen. 1:11-12; 2 Ki. 19:30; Isa. 37:31; Eze. 17:8,23; Luk. 13:9; Jhn. 15:4), would be ‘delivered’, see Gen. 3:15, 16:11, 19:36, 38:24-25; 1 Sam. 4:19; 2 Sam. 11:5; Ecc. 11:5; Isa. 26:17-18, 54:1, 66:7-8; Mic. 5:3; Mat. 1:18,23, 24:19; Mar. 13:17; Luk. 21:23; Gal. 4:27; Rev. 12:17. – pre A.D., being B.C. (Did you know that a woman ‘sheds blood’ (works, filthy rags) until she receives ‘the seed’ (of Faith) – Mat. 9:20-22; Mar. 5:25-34; Luk. 8:43-48?)
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[ReChoired]

and Mary (Rev. 12:1) . . .

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Is this “woman” in Rev. 12, ‘Mary’, ‘the [Catholic] ark’ ‘assumed’ into Heaven, as Roman Catholicism teaches (Rev. 11:19-12:2)?

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?​

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2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?​

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3. Does the Bible (KJB) anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?​

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4. Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times?​

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5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)?​

Is there any Biblical or Historical data to confirm such a claim that Mary was "assumed" into Heaven?

No, and even Rome fully admits this, for they base it on mere "tradition" and fallen human "reason".

“I answer that, Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb; indeed, they do not even mention her birth. But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this...” [Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica; Third Part; Question 27; Article I; “I answer that...”] [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas Second and Revised Edition, 1920 Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol. Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii. APPROBATIO ORDINIS Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L. Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin (Tertia Pars, Q. 27)​

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“... At the same time, it must be confessed that we do not possess any authentic documents bearing directly on Mary's post-Pentecostal life. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “V”; “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary”; subsection “The Post-pentesoctal Life Of Mary”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary​

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“... Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

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"St. John Damascene St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem: St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

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"The feast of the Assumption Regarding the origin of the feast we are also uncertain. It is more probably the anniversary of the dedication of some church than the actual anniversary of Our Lady's death. That it originated at the time of the Council of Ephesus, or that St. Damasus introduced it in Rome is only a hypothesis. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Feast Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

An "assumption" based on no facts, but mere vain "tradition" of men, made up out of the vain aether (Eph. 2:2).

“cried” – A loud voice, crying (as John the Baptist), even of the other prophets (Zec. 7:7; Rom. 9:27); one of pain, and also of desiring for the Desire of all nations (Jesus; Hag. 2:7); see Psa. 69:3; Mat. 3:3, 9:27, 20:30-31, 21:9,15; Mar. 1:3, 9:24, 10:47-48, 11:9; Luk. 3:4, 4:41, 18:39; Jhn. 1:15,23; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6. The people ‘cried’ unto the LORD, in mercy, He delivered them (2 Chr. 32:20; Neh. 9:27-28; Psa. 3:4, 18:6, 22:5, 30:8, 107:6,13, etc).

“travailing in birth” – The Church of God (Act. 7:38), the peoples Israel, were going through great struggles and sorrow (Ecc. 1:13, 2:23,26, 3:10, 4:4,6,8, 5:14) for a long time. They had been assaulted by Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Medo-Persians, Greecians and then they were again subjugated by the Roman Empire, and the Pharisees and Saduccees and even the High Priest were more political than anything else, and were corrupt (Luk. 3:1-2). The Prophecies of the Messiah were largely confused by the people (Mar. 12:24), though there were some faithful which were looking and understood somewhat (wisemen of the east, shepherds, Simeon, Anna a prophetess, etc). There had been many uprisings and revolts against the oppressions, but each time ending in failure (Dan. 11:14; Act. 5:36-37, 21:38). The time prophecies of Daniel (Dan. 9:20-27), upon which all the prophecies of the first coming/advent (Mat. 11:13; Luk. 16:16) of Christ were about to culminate in those years; see Gen. 35:16, 38:27-28; Exo. 18:8; Num. 20:14; 1 Sam. 4:19; Job. 15:20; Psa. 7:14, 48:5-6; Isa. 13:8, 21:3, 23:4, 26:17-18, 42:14, 53:11; Jer. 4:31, 6:24, 13:21, 22:23, 30:6, 31:8, 49:24, 50:43; Hos. 13:13; Mic. 4:9-10, 5:3; Luk. 2:11; Jhn. 16:21; Rom. 8:22; Gal. 4:19,27; Col. 1:27; 1 Thes. 2:9, 5:3; 2 Thes. 3:8.

“pained” – Struggling, see Psa. 25:18; Jer. 4:19; Mar. 6:48.

“to be delivered” – To give birth (to Jesus Christ, and/or His character, thus saved from sin); see 2 Ki. 19:3; Job. 5:19, 6:23, 33:24,28, 36:15; Psa. 6:4, 7:1, 18:2; Pro. 11:21; Isa. 26:17-18, 37:3, 61:1, 66:9; Mat. 6:13; Luk. 4:18, 11:4; Jhn. 16:21; Rom. 11:26; 1 Tim. 2:15.

Rev. 12 Powerpoint - Revelation 12 – The Great Controversy Powerpoint : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO

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Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism Says : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism SaysYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

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Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of JesusYOUTUBE: ...

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Hope that was helpful.

 

[ReChoired]

Jesus was teaching about a very specific type of prayer that included praise, worship and petitions directed to God.

Yes, Jesus taught us living how to do those things, but the dead cannot do any of those things. Mary is dead (so who is this appearing apparition of light - 2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel (messenger) of light.). There is no 'communion of the saints', which is pagan spiritualism, and devils masquerading as "familiar spirits" (like the one masquerading as 'Samuel' with the witch at Endor and king Saul).

QUESTION: WAS MANKIND (ADAM) CREATED WITH AN IMMORTAL “SOUL”, OR WAS MANKIND (ADAM) CREATED AS A “LIVING SOUL” FROM SOMETHING?

[A.] Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (see also 1 Corinthians 15:45; Acts 17:25; Job 12:10)​

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[1.] “the dust of the ground” + [2.] “the breath of life (of God)” “breathed into his nostrils” = [3.] “man became a living soul”.​

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[B.] Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:​

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[C.] Job 4:19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?​

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[D.] Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;​

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[E.] Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

QUESTION: WHAT IS A SOUL (LIVING or DEAD)?

A “soul” (H5315, G5590; Leviticus 22:11; Hebrews 4:12) is a “life” (Genesis 9:5; Matthew 6:25; Luke 9:56; Acts 15:26, 27:10; 1 John 3:16; Revelation 12:11, &c.), “person/s” (Genesis 14:21; Numbers 5:6, &c.), “creature” (Genesis 1:21,24; Leviticus 11:46, &c.), or “beast” (Leviticus 24:18). It can also be defined as a “being”.​

QUESTION: IF MANKIND (ADAM), WHEN ALIVE, IS A “LIVING SOUL”, ARE “BEASTS” THAT ARE ALIVE ALSO “LIVING SOULS”?

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Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:​

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See also Joshua 6, 10 & 11, in every instance where it is written that Joshua destroyed “all the souls that were therein” (Joshua 6:21, 10:28,30,32,35,37,39-40, 11:11) it included both “persons” (mankind) and “beeves”, “asses”, “sheep”, &c of the “beasts” that were in those cities.​

QUESTION: CAN A “LIVING SOUL” DIE AND BECOME A “DEAD” SOUL, HAVING NO LIFE ANYMORE?

Yes, see “dead”: Leviticus 19:28, 21:1, 22:4; Numbers 5:2, 6:11, 9:6-7 (2),10. If the “dust of the ground” from which any “living soul” is “formed” is destroyed or damaged beyond sustaining life, or if the “breath of life (of God)” is taken back by God, that “living soul” becomes a dead soul (person, creature, beast, being):​

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[A.] Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.​

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[B.] Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

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[C.] Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.​

QUESTION: IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MANKIND AND BEAST IN DEATH?

[A.] Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

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[B.] Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (for Catholics, see ‘Ash Wednesday’, “Remember you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”)​

​

[C.] Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.​

​

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

QUESTION: ARE MANKIND (“LIVING SOULS”) WHICH ARE ALIVE, “MORTAL” OR “IMMORTAL”?

Job_4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? (see also Romans 6:12, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; 2 Corinthians 4:11)​

QUESTION: IF MANKIND HAS LIFE CONDITIONALLY, WHERE DID THE TEACHING OF “IMMORTAL SOUL/SPIRIT” COME FROM?

[A.] Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

​

[B.] Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (see also Revelation 20:2)​

​

[C.] Lev_20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.​

​

[D.] 1Ch_10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​

​

[E.] 1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

​

[F.] Rev_16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.​

QUESTION: IS THERE ANYONE IN THE BIBLE WHO HAS IMMORTALITY, OR IS INHERENTLY IMMORTAL?

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;​

​

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.​

 

[ReChoired]

Jesus was teaching about a very specific type of prayer that included praise, worship and petitions directed to God.

...
QUESTION: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A “LIVING SOUL” DIES?

They return to the dust of the earth from which they came, and it is as if they “sleep” (lying down) in the grave, until their respective resurrection.​

​

[A.] Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

​

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

​

[B.] Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

​

[C.] Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (“breath of life (of God)”)shall return unto God who gave it.​

​

[D.] Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction (H1793; crushed to dust); and sayest, Return, ye children of men.​

​

[E.] Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

​

[F.] Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

​

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.​

​

[G.] Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.​

​

[H.] Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;​

​

Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.​

​

Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.​

​

Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;​

​

Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.​

​

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?​

​

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:​

​

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. (see “heaven”: Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; 2 Peter 3:10; Isaiah 34:4; Revelation 6:14.)​

​

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! (see “wrath” = 7 last plagues; Revelation 15:1, 16:1,19)​

​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. (see 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; Luke 14:14)​

​

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. (see “call”: 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Psalms 50:4; Isaiah 25:8-9)​

​

[I.] Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.​

​

[J.] Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.​

​

Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.​

​

Job 17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?​

​

Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.​

QUESTION: IS IT ONLY THE “BODY” THAT GOES TO THE GRAVE, OR IS IT THE WHOLE PERSON, THE DEAD SOUL?

[A.] Job 20:11 His bones are full of the sin of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.​

​

[B.] Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;​

​

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.​

​

[C.] Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,​

​

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

QUESTION: DON’T WE GET TO KEEP THE “SPIRIT” IN DEATH?

Ecc_8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.​

QUESTION: DO THE DECEASED PRAY, PRAISE, SING, REJOICE OR MAKE ANY NOISE?

[A.] Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

​

[B.] Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

​

[C.] Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?​

You can read more here - 13 Bible Studies, Prophecy, History, Theology, Legacy by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

...

Is this “woman” in Rev. 12, ‘Mary’, ‘the [Catholic] ark’ ‘assumed’ into Heaven, as Roman Catholicism teaches (Rev. 11:19-12:2)?

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?​

​

2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?​

​

3. Does the Bible (KJB) anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?​

​

4. Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times?​

​

5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)?​

Is there any Biblical or Historical data to confirm such a claim that Mary was "assumed" into Heaven?

No, and even Rome fully admits this, for they base it on mere "tradition" and fallen human "reason".

“I answer that, Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb; indeed, they do not even mention her birth. But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this...” [Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica; Third Part; Question 27; Article I; “I answer that...”] [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas Second and Revised Edition, 1920 Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol. Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii. APPROBATIO ORDINIS Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L. Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin (Tertia Pars, Q. 27)​

​

“... At the same time, it must be confessed that we do not possess any authentic documents bearing directly on Mary's post-Pentecostal life. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “V”; “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary”; subsection “The Post-pentesoctal Life Of Mary”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary​

​

“... Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

​

"St. John Damascene St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem: St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

​

"The feast of the Assumption Regarding the origin of the feast we are also uncertain. It is more probably the anniversary of the dedication of some church than the actual anniversary of Our Lady's death. That it originated at the time of the Council of Ephesus, or that St. Damasus introduced it in Rome is only a hypothesis. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Feast Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

An "assumption" based on no facts, but mere vain "tradition" of men, made up out of the vain aether (Eph. 2:2).

“cried” – A loud voice, crying (as John the Baptist), even of the other prophets (Zec. 7:7; Rom. 9:27); one of pain, and also of desiring for the Desire of all nations (Jesus; Hag. 2:7); see Psa. 69:3; Mat. 3:3, 9:27, 20:30-31, 21:9,15; Mar. 1:3, 9:24, 10:47-48, 11:9; Luk. 3:4, 4:41, 18:39; Jhn. 1:15,23; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6. The people ‘cried’ unto the LORD, in mercy, He delivered them (2 Chr. 32:20; Neh. 9:27-28; Psa. 3:4, 18:6, 22:5, 30:8, 107:6,13, etc).

“travailing in birth” – The Church of God (Act. 7:38), the peoples Israel, were going through great struggles and sorrow (Ecc. 1:13, 2:23,26, 3:10, 4:4,6,8, 5:14) for a long time. They had been assaulted by Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Medo-Persians, Greecians and then they were again subjugated by the Roman Empire, and the Pharisees and Saduccees and even the High Priest were more political than anything else, and were corrupt (Luk. 3:1-2). The Prophecies of the Messiah were largely confused by the people (Mar. 12:24), though there were some faithful which were looking and understood somewhat (wisemen of the east, shepherds, Simeon, Anna a prophetess, etc). There had been many uprisings and revolts against the oppressions, but each time ending in failure (Dan. 11:14; Act. 5:36-37, 21:38). The time prophecies of Daniel (Dan. 9:20-27), upon which all the prophecies of the first coming/advent (Mat. 11:13; Luk. 16:16) of Christ were about to culminate in those years; see Gen. 35:16, 38:27-28; Exo. 18:8; Num. 20:14; 1 Sam. 4:19; Job. 15:20; Psa. 7:14, 48:5-6; Isa. 13:8, 21:3, 23:4, 26:17-18, 42:14, 53:11; Jer. 4:31, 6:24, 13:21, 22:23, 30:6, 31:8, 49:24, 50:43; Hos. 13:13; Mic. 4:9-10, 5:3; Luk. 2:11; Jhn. 16:21; Rom. 8:22; Gal. 4:19,27; Col. 1:27; 1 Thes. 2:9, 5:3; 2 Thes. 3:8.

“pained” – Struggling, see Psa. 25:18; Jer. 4:19; Mar. 6:48.

“to be delivered” – To give birth (to Jesus Christ, and/or His character, thus saved from sin); see 2 Ki. 19:3; Job. 5:19, 6:23, 33:24,28, 36:15; Psa. 6:4, 7:1, 18:2; Pro. 11:21; Isa. 26:17-18, 37:3, 61:1, 66:9; Mat. 6:13; Luk. 4:18, 11:4; Jhn. 16:21; Rom. 11:26; 1 Tim. 2:15.

Rev. 12 Powerpoint - Revelation 12 – The Great Controversy Powerpoint : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO

archive.org

Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism Says : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism SaysYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

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Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of JesusYOUTUBE: ...

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Hope that was helpful.

Your forum bulldozer is based on a made-in-America quasi-Christian group that started in the 1870's, and nothing to do with the dangers our world is facing right now, and is off t opic.
My forum bulldozer is supported by faith and reason, by a One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. that refuted the common misconceptions of The Communion of Saints.

 

[Marymog]

And, may I say, that Bread and Mary are not helping the CC but creating more distrust.
I do hope you don't go down that path.

Really? How are @BreadOfLife and I "creating more distrust" in the CC?

Curious Mary

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Do you mean all this to be for me?

It's for you and anybody else that rejects what they refuse to understand.

You better cut it down to a couple of paragraphs because I'm not able yo respond to such a long post. No time.

You seem to have time to assert reformist errors who rejected all human intercession. The Bible doesn't do that.

Also it seems like you don't understand what I'm saying....

More than you'll ever know.

Also, you're not going to tell me anything I don't know.

I simply clarified the Catholic position on intercession, that, based on your previous posts, you think you know.

I had mentioned that I'd be interested in knowing more about the assumption. But I'm still conflicted about that.

I'll post some excellent easy to read sources on the Assumption, but you don't have time.

And, may I say, that Bread and Mary are not helping the CC but creating more distrust.
I do hope you don't go down that path.

One cannot impose truth. When one tries, it's no longer truth. The CC can only PROPOSE truth to those who are DISPOSED to receive it.
Understanding Mariology requires prayer and honest reflection. 25 years on numerous forums I've learned that anti-Catholics are more obsessed about Mary than Catholics are.

Since you are so INDISPOSED, discussion with you is a waste of time. The same applies to @ReChiored who floods the thread with a litany of lies from a premise of recycled Arianism. It's better to put such people on ignore, and save on screen space like I do with you most of the time.
One question: were the miracles and prophecies at Fatima in 1917 true or the work of satan?
Choose wisely. Let me know if you can't, or won't, see the video in post #1714 and I'll try and find a transcript.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is this “woman” in Rev. 12, ‘Mary’, ‘the [Catholic] ark’ ‘assumed’ into Heaven, as Roman Catholicism teaches (Rev. 11:19-12:2)?

1. Is the woman still pregnant (with child) in Rev. 12:1-2,5?

2. Is the “great red Dragon” also “in heaven” ready to devour the ‘man child’ as soon as He is born in Rev. 12:3-5, and if so, is the devil in Heaven right now with this ‘Mary’ then?

3. Does the Bible (KJB) anywhere say that ‘Mary’, whether dead or alive, was ‘assumed’ bodily into Heaven?

4. Is the context or Rev. 12:1-2 in pre-AD (Anno Domini) times?

5. Is the context of Rev. 11:15-19 in post BC (Before Christ) times, even at the end of time, during the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15), wherein the 7 last plagues are mentioned (Rev. 11:18, ‘thy wrath is come’)?

Catholic "assumptions" are very hillarious. The text doesn't say "Mary" you funny funny guy, you. :)

**Because of the length of your posts, I deleted most of it because there is no room for me to respond. . . .

Rev. 12:1-4 is what is known as a polyvalent symbolism. In other words, it symbolizes multiple things:
- Israel
- The Church
- Mary

The Woman is wearing a crown of 12 stars which symbolizes BOTH the 12 Tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles. She gives birth toa son who will rule with an iron rod, which is Mary.

Again, since Chapter and Verse were not added until the Middle Ages – the Book of Revelation is one long letter. In the verse that precedes Rev. 12:1, we read the following:
Rev. 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

The Ark of the Covenant was an OT Type that was fulfilled by Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, Jesus.

COMPARISON CHART – Ark of the Covenant and Mary

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Rev. 12 is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant mentioned in Rev. 11:19..

 

[BreadOfLife]

Moses, died, was buried by Jesus/Michael (the Son of the Father), and resurrected by him and taken to heaven (alive):

QUESTION: ARE THERE ANY PERSONS OF MANKIND IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW?

Yes, but they were either “translated” alive (not dead, see study on what happens in death) and glorified, or resurrected (made alive) and glorified and taken up or ascended.

[1.] Enoch (translated alive & glorified; Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5),​

​

[2.] Moses (resurrected & glorified; Num. 20:8-12, 27:13, 31:2; Deu. 4:21-22, 31:2,14,16, 32:51-52, 34:1-8; 1 Sam. 2:6; Mat. 22:32; Jhn. 11:25-26; Mat. 17:1-12; Mar. 9:1-13; Luk. 9:27-36; 2 Pet. 1:16; Rom. 5:14; Jud. 1:9),​

​

[3.] Elijah (translated & glorified; 2 Kin. 2:1-12),​

​

[4.] ‘firstfruits’ around Jerusalem (resurrected & glorified; Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; Compare Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Triumphal Entry into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Act. 1.),​

​

[5] Jesus Himself (resurrected, glorified & ascended; Mat. 28:6; Mar. 16:6; Luk. 24:6; Rev. 12:5, &c).​

That’s it, for now, until Jesus returns and resurrects the sleeping saints, and translates alive the living (1 Thes. 4:13-18; Jhn. 14:2-3).

Isaiah 26:19 KJB - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

**Because of the length of your post, I deleted most of it because there is no room for me to respond. . . .

First if all- - Jesus and Michael are NOT the same person.
I know that this is a belief of the Jehovah’s Witnesses because if the perversions in the New World Translation.

The 4 living creatures of Rev. 5:8 are Angels - but the 24 Elders are humans - and there is NOTHING to indicate otherwise.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let us now consider this Prophetic and Symbolic/Signified - Rev. 1:1, Passage in its proper context, which is the 7 Seals, "And when he had opened the fifth seal ...", Rev. 6:9

Should we have to go over the first four "Seals" to understand they are given in Symbols, that we might understand earthly events?

The Fifth Seal is no different, for it refers to events on Earth. How do we know? The context. The texts reads that these "souls" were "under the Altar" - Rev. 6:9.

**Because of the length of your post, I deleted most of it because there is no room for me to respond. . . .

The souls in Rev. 6:8 are MARTYRED people in Heaven.
The Bible wasn’t written in Chapter and Verse. This wasn’t added until the Middle Ages.

At the end of Chapter 5, we see that God is being worshipped in Heaven.

In the very next verse (Rev. 6:1), the Lamb is opening the Seals from His throne in Heaven. When He opened the Fifth Seal, the martyred souls were under the altar – in HEAVEN.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's for you and anybody else that rejects what they refuse to understand.

You seem to have time to assert reformist errors who rejected all human intercession. The Bible doesn't do that.

More than you'll ever know.

I simply clarified the Catholic position on intercession, that, based on your previous posts, you think you know.


I'll post some excellent easy to read sources on the Assumption, but you don't have time.

One cannot impose truth. When one tries, it's no longer truth. The CC can only PROPOSE truth to those who are DISPOSED to receive it.
Understanding Mariology requires prayer and honest reflection. 25 years on numerous forums I've learned that anti-Catholics are more obsessed about Mary than Catholics are.

Since you are so INDISPOSED, discussion with you is a waste of time. The same applies to @ReChiored who floods the thread with a litany of lies from a premise of recycled Arianism. It's better to put such people on ignore, and save on screen space like I do with you most of the time.
One question: were the miracles and prophecies at Fatima in 1917 true or the work of satan?
Choose wisely. Let me know if you can't, or won't, see the video in post #1714 and I'll try and find a transcript.

No need to watch any video.
They were real.

Yes. It's difficult to speak to you.
So be it.