What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[Johann]

Aa I already showed you - the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) and the Angels (Rev. 8:4-5) intercede as well.

Error-

1. John 14:6:
Scripture: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Explanation: This verse underscores the exclusivity of Jesus as the mediator between God and humanity, emphasizing that access to the Father is only through Christ.

2. Hebrews 7:25:
Scripture: "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."
Explanation: Jesus' role as the eternal intercessor for believers is highlighted here, affirming that Christ continually intercedes on behalf of those who come to God through Him.

3. Ephesians 2:18:
Scripture: "For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."
Explanation: This verse teaches that both Jews and Gentiles have direct access to the Father through Jesus by the Holy Spirit, emphasizing the unity and direct relationship with God through Christ.

4. 1 John 2:1:
Scripture: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
Explanation: Jesus is identified as the advocate for believers before the Father, reinforcing His unique role in intercession and advocacy for those who sin.

5. Romans 8:34:
Scripture: "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."
Explanation: This passage underscores that Jesus, who is at the right hand of God, intercedes for believers, affirming His ongoing role in mediating and interceding for His followers.

6. Matthew 6:6:
Scripture: "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Explanation: Jesus instructs believers to pray directly to the Father, indicating a personal and direct approach to God without intermediaries.

7. Hebrews 10:19-22:
Scripture: "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."
Explanation: This passage speaks of the confidence believers have to enter into God's presence through Jesus' sacrifice, highlighting the direct access to God through Christ's high priesthood.

8. Colossians 1:18:
Scripture: "And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy."
Explanation: Jesus is described as the head of the church, emphasizing His preeminence and the centrality of a direct relationship with Him.

9. Acts 4:12:
Scripture: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
Explanation: This verse asserts the exclusivity of Jesus as the source of salvation, reinforcing that He alone is the mediator and savior.

10. John 16:23-24:
Scripture: "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete."
Explanation: Jesus encourages believers to pray directly to the Father in His name, suggesting that prayers should be directed to God through Christ.
These scriptures, taken together, support the view that believers can and should approach God directly through Jesus Christ, who is their sole mediator and intercessor.

Scriptural Arguments Against the Intercession of Saints:
Direct Access to God through Christ:

1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."
This verse emphasizes that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and humanity, which some interpret to mean that there is no need for any other intercessors, including saints.
Prayer Directly to God:

Philippians 4:6: "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."
Paul instructs believers to present their requests directly to God, suggesting that prayers should be directed to God alone.
Christ's High Priesthood:

Hebrews 4:14-16: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to feel sympathy for our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
This passage highlights Jesus' role as the High Priest who provides believers direct access to God's throne of grace.
The Role of the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8:26-27: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God."
Here, the Holy Spirit is described as interceding for believers, which supports the view that intercession is performed by the Holy Spirit rather than saints.
Explanation and Clarification:
Interpreting Revelation 5:8 and 8:4-5:

While Revelation 5:8 and 8:4-5 depict saints and angels presenting prayers to God, those who reject the intercession of saints might interpret these passages symbolically or as specific to the heavenly context, not as a model for earthly practice.
Christ’s Unique Role:

Emphasizing Christ’s unique and sufficient role as mediator aligns with the view that believers should pray directly to God through Jesus, without invoking saints.

Want to try again? Hebrew and Greek, this time?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

WRONG.

Aa I already showed you - the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) and the Angels (Rev. 8:4-5) intercede as well.

Repeating your lies doesn't make them "true", Mr. Goebbels . . .

 

[Taken]

And for SOME reason - YOU thinkk that the body is more important than the soul.

You are not remotely qualified to dictate what I think!

A mans BODY and SOUL and SPIRIT…each have a very “signifiant” “express” part regarding a mans SALVATION and REDEMPTION….

To ignore or dismiss ANY part is foolish.

FONT=verdana]Moses "died" on earth - but he was conversing with Jesus at the Transfuguration.
Was Jesus tsalking to a rotting corpse - or to Moses??[/FONT]

It is obvious you are confused and unknowing exactly what the body, the soul, the spirit of manKIND “is”.

A mans body has eyes….
Yet it is the soul that sees!
A mans body has ears…
Yet it is the soul that hears!

So what Moses’ body was dead…His soul was alive…seeing, hearing the Lord!

So what mens body’s will be dead…if they BE Converted…their soul SHALL Hear His VOICE and go to Him when He calls…and SEE Him, when they go to Him!

ODD you don’t Know the very basics of the body, soul and spirit.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Pretty much everything you say is snarky, accusatory, gaslighting, sarcastic…without merit of spiritual understanding.

I do not respond to your posts FOR your benefit, but rather for others…

Jesus conversed with Moses, who was dead. Your slippery polemics to escape the obvious doesn't work.

 

[Johann]

Only because you cannot be ignored.

And you have nothing to say so you can be ignored.

 

[MatthewG]

I have a question.


Is it so wrong for a person to ask God, to say hi to a former person who lived on this earth before? Family member, friend, even a murderer which they find into letting go and forgiving?

I don't know, if people are still getting the bodies, baptised for the dead today... Cause they were already dead? There are people who may still pray for the message to be sent perhaps to them, and if God is a good God, he wouldn't mind those prayers alongside your living situations and issues with others and yourself too.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

Aa I already showed you - the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) and the Angels (Rev. 8:4-5) intercede as well.

YOU pray “TO” spirit angels?
YOU pray “TO” “mens souls IN Heaven”?

Sorta makes Jesus being an intercessor…
Irrelevant.

Sorta makes God being the ONE for the converted to have DIRECT Contact…Irrelevant.

QUOTE ME ANYWHERE in Scripture you are taught to PRAY TO souls in heaven, or PRAY TO angels…






Repeating your lies doesn't make them "true", Mr. Goebbels . . .

 

[Johann]

WRONG.

Aa I already showed you - the saints in Heaven (Rev. 5:8) and the Angels (Rev. 8:4-5) intercede as well.

Repeating your lies doesn't make them "true", Mr. Goebbels . . .

Error--
6) "Which are the prayers of the saints," (hai eisin hai proseuchai ton hagion) "Which are the prayers of the saints," representing the prayers of the saints, especially "the saints" of old covenant worship; Psa_134:2; Joh_14:13; 1Ti_2:8; Heb_7:25.

and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints; this is said in allusion to the golden censers full of incense, which ascended upwards, and was of a sweet smell; the vessels on the shewbread table, in which incense was put, are by Josephus (h) called "golden vials", as here; his words are, upon the loaves were put two φιαλαι χρυσεαι, "golden vials", full of incense: the prayers of the saints are compared to "odours", or "incense", as the word may be rendered, and as they are called, Psa_141:2; partly because as incense goes upwards, so do they go up to God, and are received, regarded, and had in remembrance by him; and partly because as incense is of a sweet smell, so the prayers of the saints, put up in the name and faith of Christ, are very grateful and acceptable to God: the "golden vials" said to be "full" of them, may design the hearts of believers, in which they first are, and from whence they proceed; true prayer is that which is inwrought in the soul, and comes from the heart, even from a heart pure like gold, purified by faith in the blood of Christ, a true heart, that asks in faith, nothing wavering; such as are really saints, true believers in Christ, are praying souls; they are full of prayers for themselves and others; they pray always, and for all saints: this makes nothing for praying to angels and saints departed; for these prayers were their own, and not others; and besides, these four living creatures, and four and twenty elders, were not angels, for they are said to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, and are distinguished from angels in the following verses; nor the saints in heaven, but ministers and churches on earth, and who were to reign with Christ on earth, Rev_5:10; it may be observed, that the Jews sometimes represent prayer in such like figures as here;
"prayer (they say) ascends with those spices which are mentioned in Son_4:14; and at the time that prayer ascends it is perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, and of this the holy blessed God asks, "who is this that comes up", &c. (i) Son_3:6;''
and they say, prayer is greater than all offerings (k). See Rev_8:3.
(h) Antiqu. l. 3. c. 6. sect. 6. (i) Raya Mehimna in Zohar in Exod. fol. 48. 3. (k) Yalkut Simeoni, par. 2. fol. 40. 3.
Gill

The two Scripture references have nothing to do with intercession of saints or angels--you might want to try again.

 

[Johann]

Error--
6) "Which are the prayers of the saints," (hai eisin hai proseuchai ton hagion) "Which are the prayers of the saints," representing the prayers of the saints, especially "the saints" of old covenant worship; Psa_134:2; Joh_14:13; 1Ti_2:8; Heb_7:25.

and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints; this is said in allusion to the golden censers full of incense, which ascended upwards, and was of a sweet smell; the vessels on the shewbread table, in which incense was put, are by Josephus (h) called "golden vials", as here; his words are, upon the loaves were put two φιαλαι χρυσεαι, "golden vials", full of incense: the prayers of the saints are compared to "odours", or "incense", as the word may be rendered, and as they are called, Psa_141:2; partly because as incense goes upwards, so do they go up to God, and are received, regarded, and had in remembrance by him; and partly because as incense is of a sweet smell, so the prayers of the saints, put up in the name and faith of Christ, are very grateful and acceptable to God: the "golden vials" said to be "full" of them, may design the hearts of believers, in which they first are, and from whence they proceed; true prayer is that which is inwrought in the soul, and comes from the heart, even from a heart pure like gold, purified by faith in the blood of Christ, a true heart, that asks in faith, nothing wavering; such as are really saints, true believers in Christ, are praying souls; they are full of prayers for themselves and others; they pray always, and for all saints: this makes nothing for praying to angels and saints departed; for these prayers were their own, and not others; and besides, these four living creatures, and four and twenty elders, were not angels, for they are said to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, and are distinguished from angels in the following verses; nor the saints in heaven, but ministers and churches on earth, and who were to reign with Christ on earth, Rev_5:10; it may be observed, that the Jews sometimes represent prayer in such like figures as here;
"prayer (they say) ascends with those spices which are mentioned in Son_4:14; and at the time that prayer ascends it is perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, and of this the holy blessed God asks, "who is this that comes up", &c. (i) Son_3:6;''
and they say, prayer is greater than all offerings (k). See Rev_8:3.
(h) Antiqu. l. 3. c. 6. sect. 6. (i) Raya Mehimna in Zohar in Exod. fol. 48. 3. (k) Yalkut Simeoni, par. 2. fol. 40. 3.
Gill

The two Scripture references have nothing to do with intercession of saints or angels--you might want to try again.

 

[Johann]

Error--
6) "Which are the prayers of the saints," (hai eisin hai proseuchai ton hagion) "Which are the prayers of the saints," representing the prayers of the saints, especially "the saints" of old covenant worship; Psa_134:2; Joh_14:13; 1Ti_2:8; Heb_7:25.

and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints; this is said in allusion to the golden censers full of incense, which ascended upwards, and was of a sweet smell; the vessels on the shewbread table, in which incense was put, are by Josephus (h) called "golden vials", as here; his words are, upon the loaves were put two φιαλαι χρυσεαι, "golden vials", full of incense: the prayers of the saints are compared to "odours", or "incense", as the word may be rendered, and as they are called, Psa_141:2; partly because as incense goes upwards, so do they go up to God, and are received, regarded, and had in remembrance by him; and partly because as incense is of a sweet smell, so the prayers of the saints, put up in the name and faith of Christ, are very grateful and acceptable to God: the "golden vials" said to be "full" of them, may design the hearts of believers, in which they first are, and from whence they proceed; true prayer is that which is inwrought in the soul, and comes from the heart, even from a heart pure like gold, purified by faith in the blood of Christ, a true heart, that asks in faith, nothing wavering; such as are really saints, true believers in Christ, are praying souls; they are full of prayers for themselves and others; they pray always, and for all saints: this makes nothing for praying to angels and saints departed; for these prayers were their own, and not others; and besides, these four living creatures, and four and twenty elders, were not angels, for they are said to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, and are distinguished from angels in the following verses; nor the saints in heaven, but ministers and churches on earth, and who were to reign with Christ on earth, Rev_5:10; it may be observed, that the Jews sometimes represent prayer in such like figures as here;
"prayer (they say) ascends with those spices which are mentioned in Son_4:14; and at the time that prayer ascends it is perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, and of this the holy blessed God asks, "who is this that comes up", &c. (i) Son_3:6;''
and they say, prayer is greater than all offerings (k). See Rev_8:3.
(h) Antiqu. l. 3. c. 6. sect. 6. (i) Raya Mehimna in Zohar in Exod. fol. 48. 3. (k) Yalkut Simeoni, par. 2. fol. 40. 3.
Gill

The two Scripture references have nothing to do with intercession of saints or angels--you might want to try again.

Definition and Usage of "Saints" in the New Testament
Greek Term:

The Greek word translated as "saints" is "hagios" (ἅγιος), which means "holy ones" or "set apart ones."
This term is used to describe those who are sanctified or made holy through their faith in Jesus Christ.
General Reference to Believers:

Throughout the New Testament, "saints" is a term used broadly to refer to all Christians, not just a special class of exceptionally holy individuals. It includes everyone who believes in Christ and is part of the Christian community.
Examples:
Romans 1:7: "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people (saints): Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:2: "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people (saints), together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours."
Saints in Revelation
Revelation 5:8:

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people (saints)."
Context: The term "saints" here refers to believers whose prayers are being offered before God. These believers can be understood as the faithful followers of Christ throughout history who have prayed and sought God's intervention.
Revelation 8:4:

"The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people (saints), went up before God from the angel’s hand."
Context: Again, the prayers of the saints represent the collective prayers of the Christian community.
Identification of the Saints
Historical and Contemporary Believers:

The saints include both historical figures who followed God in the past (Old Testament saints) and contemporary believers who are living in the time of the early church and beyond.
Hebrews 11 provides a list of Old Testament saints, including Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, and many others.
All Faithful Christians:

The term encompasses all Christians who live by faith, regardless of their time period or geographic location.
Ephesians 1:1: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people (saints) in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus."
Summary

In the context of Revelation, the "saints" whose prayers are depicted as incense before God are the collective body of believers, the faithful Christians throughout all ages who are sanctified by their faith in Jesus Christ. They are not limited to a specific group or time but include all who have trusted in Christ and followed Him faithfully.

No intercession of saints or angels in the two verses-you might want to try again.

 

[Taken]

Jesus conversed with Moses, who was dead. Your slippery polemics to escape the obvious doesn't work.

Moses’ BODY was dead…
Mose’s SOUL had a conversation with the Lord.

Are you utterly unaware…departed souls are alive…escorted or sent to particular places…and amongst themselves can converse one with the other?

Do you think souls IN Heaven are some how Listening to millions of men on earth then rushing to tell Jesus, tell God what people are praying for…?

What a horrible prospect that would be….a 24-7 mob of people all jabbering at once to souls in heaven!!

Sort makes that soul “supposedly Resting IN Peace”…a farce…according to your teaching.

 

[Johann]

Mose’s SOUL had a conversation with the Lord.

Right you are @Taken

The Transfiguration Event
Matthew 17:1-3:
"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."

Mark 9:2-4:
"After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus."

Luke 9:28-31:
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John, and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem."

Explanation and Theological Significance

1. Moses and Elijah’s Presence:
Moses: Represents the Law (Torah), as he was the one through whom God gave the Law to Israel.
Elijah: Represents the Prophets, symbolizing the prophetic tradition that called Israel back to faithfulness.

2. Conversation with Jesus:
The content of their conversation, as noted in Luke, was about Jesus' upcoming "departure" (Greek: "exodos") which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem. This refers to Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension.

3. Significance of Their Appearance:
Continuity of God’s Plan: The appearance of Moses and Elijah signifies the continuity of God's salvific plan from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Jesus is seen as the fulfillment of both the Law and the Prophets.
Witness to Jesus’ Divinity: Their presence underscores Jesus’ divine nature and mission. The glorified state of Moses and Elijah emphasizes the eschatological (end-times) reality of the resurrection and eternal life.
Encouragement and Confirmation: The appearance of these prominent figures from Israel’s history serves to encourage Jesus and confirm His mission to the disciples.

4. Moses’ Death and Afterlife:
Deuteronomy 34:5-6: "And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is."

The Bible records that Moses died and was buried by God. His appearance at the Transfiguration shows that death does not end one’s existence or ability to interact with God. It provides a glimpse of the afterlife where the faithful are in the presence of God.
Theological Implications
Affirmation of the Afterlife:

The presence of Moses, despite his physical death, affirms the belief in an afterlife where the righteous dwell with God. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching on the resurrection and eternal life.
Jesus as Fulfillment:

Jesus' conversation with Moses and Elijah highlights that He is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. His life, death, and resurrection complete and perfect the Old Covenant promises.
Divine Revelation and Authority:

The event serves as a divine revelation of Jesus' identity as the Son of God. The voice from the cloud, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" (Matthew 17:5), provides divine confirmation of Jesus' authority.
Conclusion
The conversation between Jesus, Moses, and Elijah during the Transfiguration is a profound event that reveals the continuity and fulfillment of God's redemptive plan. It affirms the reality of life after death, underscores Jesus' divine mission, and connects the Old Testament promises with their New Testament fulfillment in Christ. This event provides theological insights into the nature of Jesus, the afterlife, and the unity of the Scriptures.
J.

 

[Taken]

Repeating your lies doesn't make them "true", Mr. Goebbels . . .[/FONT]

It will be refreshing when you learn to understand the meaning of that knowledge and act upon that understanding.

 

[Taken]

Jesus conversed with Moses, who was dead. Your slippery polemics to escape the obvious doesn't work.

Your understanding of your Carnal mind regarding spiritual things is of no interest to me.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Moses’ BODY was dead…
Mose’s SOUL had a conversation with the Lord.

Are you utterly unaware…departed souls are alive…escorted or sent to particular places…and amongst themselves can converse one with the other?

Do you think souls IN Heaven are some how Listening to millions of men on earth then rushing to tell Jesus, tell God what people are praying for…?

What a horrible prospect that would be….a 24-7 mob of people all jabbering at once to souls in heaven!!

Sort makes that soul “supposedly Resting IN Peace”…a farce…according to your teaching.

You completely miss the point. Those in heaven, made perfect, and with God, are more alive than you and I are. What kind of reward is being deaf and dumb to earthly matters? That's not more alive in the least.

Hebrews12:1 (KJV) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:

‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.

[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

Sadly, Taken doesn't get any of this.

Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding? [2-15-06]
*
Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding? [12-29-06]
*
Bible on Invocation of Angels & Saved Human Beings [6-10-08]
*
“One Mediator” (1 Tim 2:5) vs. All Human Mediation? [10-14-08]
*
Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]
*
Invocation of Saints & the Bible: Dialogue [2-14-10]
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“Why pray to a saint rather than to God?” [4-1-10]
*
Bible on Asking Dead Men to Intercede (Luke 16) [7-8-14]
*
Dialogue with an Anglican on “Praying to Mary,” Patron Saints, Etc. (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [11-10-14]
*
Praying to Angels & Angelic Intercession [2015]
*
Asking Saints to Intercede: Teaching of Jesus [2015]
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Why Pray to Saints Rather than God? [9-4-15]
*
Reply to a Lutheran Pastor on Invocation of Saints [12-1-15]
*
Dialogue on Praying to Abraham (Luke 16) [5-22-16]
*
Prayer to Saints: “New” [?] Biblical Argument [5-23-16]

Run, Taken, run.

 

[Truther]

Ah, magical incantations! Of course! Rumpelstiltskin lives!

You subscribe to the same type of barren formalism that Jesus chastised the Pharisees for. If Jesus Christ is "the Son" (as you concede to be true) and I am baptized in the name of "the Son," that is functionally equivalent to baptizing me in the name of Jesus Christ.

Wow, you think the name of Jesus being spoken is magic. Is that what you would’ve said to Peter when he spoke the name of Jesus to heal the lame man in Acts chapter 3?

 

[Truther]

Soooo, is it that you can't show me how the 7 Deuterocanonical Books sonegow “contraduct" the rest of Scripture? OR, is it that yoiu don't even know the names of the Books??

Once again - why do you adhere to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

Again, the Roman Catholic Church is all about commentary. I had a debate with a priest in his office and there were several people there to witness it. I brought my Bible alone and he brought an arm full of books and dropped them on the table to try to counter my Bible. You are doing the same thing.

 

[Johann]

You completely miss the point. Those in heaven, made perfect, and with God, are more alive than you and I are. What kind of reward is being deaf and dumb to earthly matters? That's not more alive in the least.

Hebrews12:1 (KJV) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:


3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:

[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

Sadly, Taken doesn't get any of this.

Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding? [2-15-06]
*
Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding? [12-29-06]
*
Bible on Invocation of Angels & Saved Human Beings [6-10-08]
*
“One Mediator” (1 Tim 2:5) vs. All Human Mediation? [10-14-08]
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Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]
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Invocation of Saints & the Bible: Dialogue [2-14-10]
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“Why pray to a saint rather than to God?” [4-1-10]
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Bible on Asking Dead Men to Intercede (Luke 16) [7-8-14]
*
Dialogue with an Anglican on “Praying to Mary,” Patron Saints, Etc. (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [11-10-14]
*
Praying to Angels & Angelic Intercession [2015]
*
Asking Saints to Intercede: Teaching of Jesus [2015]
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Why Pray to Saints Rather than God? [9-4-15]
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Reply to a Lutheran Pastor on Invocation of Saints [12-1-15]
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Dialogue on Praying to Abraham (Luke 16) [5-22-16]
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Prayer to Saints: “New” [?] Biblical Argument [5-23-16]

You might want to try again and your site is the last place I would go to and now you are using Protestant "commentaries"--are you desperate?

 

[Truther]

Pail Baptized then with the Baptism of Christ because they had ONLY been Baptized with the Baptism of John. The Baptism of Christ is a ONE TIME deal (Eph. 4:5-6).

According to Jesus Chriust Himself - THIS is how it is done:
"...In the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT: (Matt. 28:19).

YOU were baptized by your OWN authority - by ivolking Jesus only.
I was Baptized in the name of (by the AUTHORITY of) Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19).

WHY do you dosobey Jesus??

You missed it again Catholic, the problem you have is you were baptized wrong and need to be baptized just like the 12 men in Acts chapter 19. You refuse. You think being baptized as a baby is going to do the trick. Wow. What a sham.

 

[Truther]

You miss to perceive, Apostle Peter commanded, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:
17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of Lord Jesus, giving thanks to GOD and he FATHER by Him.

I totally agree.