What is the difference between vengeance and justice?

[Nancy]

Yup!
Hahaha lol..And I get! Who doesn't here!
L'il brat ignoring you...lol...classic brat behavior!!! Arrested development at ...what? A 6 yr. old...
maybe older, actually...it might demonstrate a more mature knowledge of manipulation. Geeze Louise.
Remember, indignation is from the ego...not 'your' ego, the ego, period...(the devil)...that which separates us from the
Truth or Love.
You're the together adult here with an unconscious desire for her to meet you
as an adult, also...probably won't happen! ha..
Yup, you gave it to God...but it helps to know when people are simply impossible pills!

"impossible pills" Ahaha...that she is. It's funny as, I had my red flags about her before I even invited her into my home...thought I was doing God's will and still do. She is definitely not mature and yes, she has been through tough times, and who hasn't??!!! She is stuck there and has convinced herself that she will be like this forever And when I tried to tell her that she is NOT the old man anymore as she is a new creature in Christ...she just would say something like 'I don't need tough love right now...' and run upstairs like a, yes 6 year old! She has made her choice and is now paying for it (literally) she expected a son of hers to move in with her and he pulled out the day she moved in now, she does NOT have the money to afford this apartment and has been asking with hand out (always) for money from folks from her Church (my old Church). Will they get tired of depleting the fellowship funds for her?? She has owned up to nothing and therefore, I will keep my distance. Thanks for the insight, lol.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Something to keep in mind is that people CHOOSE to take offense.
We all have the option to simply ignore the offense and the offender and move on.

That is very true. Those that simply have a hard time imagining that I say, ok, Ya have 2 cars that get hit in the parking
lot and get dented.
One guy comes out and Rants and Raves, Oh my!
The calm monk comes out to his car and says, "What a gorgeous day."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detachment, flowing...keeping your peace in the face of just terrible things is a practice...and ultimately
a choice to make that peace your priority ...it doesn't happen over night..it is effort, I know!
Like Joyce Meyer said once,"I'm not where I wanna be, but I'm not where I was!''
What took her 3 weeks to get over, now takes her a few minutes!
It's a constant vigilance in my life...cuz these curve balls can come at anytime...if I can't keep my peace
when my neighbor keeps on doing the same thing that bugs me...how am I going to handle a cancer diagnosis...of
a loved one?
It's work to be happy! lol

Ah, Nancy you say you saw red flags...that's a lesson here, isn't it, trusting your inner voice! :)

 

[Soverign Grace]

We are always to forgive, in the sense that we are not to bear grudges or nurse bitterness in our hearts.

But the one who sins must repent if they are to receive our forgiveness and have their relationship with us restored.

So yes... accountability is important. If they have committed a criminal offence, the police and justice system will need to be involved. But if they are never held to account in this life, they will have to answer for it on Judgement Day.

I think it's difficult to lay down a general rule. So much depends on the particular circumstances of the case and the severity of the offence.

So you think one is to forgive the grievous sin of another, but the relationship shouldn't be restored unless they repent? Do you think that God expects us to restore the relationship?

 

[Soverign Grace]

Ah, you gave options, good. So following your lead..i say no question, 'always' forgive...be kind..but, keep them at arms length.

And @Deborah...when I say always forgive...there is no need for them to repent.
They can do the same stupid, hurtful thing 70 x7...is what I mean.
Sometimes ya can't change stupid...so forgive.
Let the Lord take care of him. Ha!
(Since a hardened heart towards someone is a burden, oh boy is it...give that to Him!!
Let Dad take care of him behind the woodshed one day.) LOL

That is what I lean towards - keeping someone at arms length who has already proven themselves untrustworthy. But Scripture doesn't seem to cover that and we seem left on our own to hammer it out.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Yes, SG-I have had a very recent thing like this happen to me and, "as far as we are able..." we get along, if the other person does not receive it and, she did not, like MH said, give it to God. Even though I "think" I've forgiven her, I still have arguments and criticism and anger even that pops up in my mind and heart so...this is a tough one. She stole many things from me when she moved out. When I discover other things she took it just starts the vicious cycle all over again and, I hate it. Just want to let it go. It was worse because she lived in my upstairs (2 large rooms with a bathroom) for next to nothing because she only took in a very little money. In the almost 2 years she was here, I got to know the REAL her and, a Christian does not act or say the things she did. So, then I felt judgmental on top of things!!! Oh I hate this kind of thing, I stay away from confrontation as much as I can. So, if you have done all in your power to make amends and nothing comes of it...it is on that other person, IMHO. It's not positive or healthy to carry around resentment and I sure hope God will purge me of these feelings once and for all.

I know the hurt of which you speak - when a hurt has lasting consequences - it's "a gift that keeps giving." What makes it hard is when someone is a professing Christian. I don't think you're being judgmental - I think they're very normal reactions to a wrong - but I know that it can keep you tangled up in negative emotions. I have encountered Christians who did more evil than any unbeliever I've known - so that woman may very well be a Christian. Look at David - he committed adultery and murder. I think the pain is much worse when the individual doing wrong is, to the best of our knowledge, Christian.

 

[Soverign Grace]

What a good topic…thank you Sovereign Grace
So many associated topics....
Forgiveness
Judgment
Hate
Real Christian?
Vengeance
Defense
Accountability
Compassion
Disassociation
I will just offer food for thought…my opinion.
Never hate….feeds Satan….and so can twist your mind.
Forgiveness is a tenant of Christian faith…heals the victim and the perpetrator.
Judgment….Got to walk softly on this one….judge the action, not the person.
Vengeance/Defense…..so many scenarios….Going after someone…no. Defense… dispatch accordingly.
Accountability/Justice best left to the authorities…civil or religious.
Compassion….consideration of what is going on with the person….yes.
Disassociation….Forgiveness….yes….allow them to be in a position to continue doing wrong against you…..no.
Determining if they are a real Christian….above my pay grade.

You brought up some good points - and Satan does seem to be 'crouching at the door' when someone does evil to you and natural emotions of anger kick up that he can use to his advantage. I think it then breaks the hedge that is there protecting us. And Satan knows where our achilles heel is.

It's hard to determine at times what the right decision is. I'm unsure if we are to forgive, or to take appropriate action. One such example of how I wasn't sure what God expected of me: my sister never had a family and was trying to get me back for telling her to not contact my children because she was causing trouble. As Executrix of my father's estate she used a corrupt lawyer to harass me for 11 months trying to pressure me into signing a document taking multiple thousands from my share. The lawyer threatened me in writing and I used that and won in court but then when he finally sent the correct paperwork with my full share, the lawyer had deducted $3k extra for his 11 months of harassing me. I filed a brief in court and the woman lawyer who worked in the probate court was corrupt and "lost" my brief and then when she "found" it she said that I filed it out of time - which was a lie and she knew it - she was working with the corrupt lawyer because he's big man on campus in the area. I wasn't sure if I should just forgive or pursue action and report the woman who worked in the probate court for corruption.

At first I thought that letting it go might draw both corrupt lawyers to God - the one my sister hired, and the one who worked in the probate court. Then as time wore on I became angry that they put my husband and me through such strain just to get my rightful inheritance. And I thought that the lawyer never should have been allowed to charge more money to the estate for his "work" of harassing me for 11 months. And if the corrupt probate lawyer 'hid' my brief trying to block it from being filed, what is she going to do next? I just got to thinking that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with corruption. So that's one example that I wrestled with and wasn't certain what God was calling me to do.

The other issue I saw was when someone did egregious evil and from all outward appearances, looks as if they've gotten away with it. Scripture says "When the wicked are cut off you will see it..." yet God seems to at times let people do monstrous evil and yet never show you that the person was repaid for their evil. It's hard when you believe Scripture - yet you don't see the truth of it come to pass.

 

[Soverign Grace]

We are always to forgive, whether we are asked forgiveness or not.
(no matter how egregious)
It's OK to keep an individual out of our lives if we fear they may do it again.
We are supposed to be forgiving...not stupid.
Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Jesus said so.

What you're having a problem with is the differnece between
forgiveness and
reconciliation.

We can forgive and never see the person again.
Our heart is clear and our conscience is clear.


Reconciliation is different....this means that both persons have forgiven and the prior relationship has been restored.

I used to get one of the kids up and I'd show the difference physically:

This is forgiveness.

• 

This is reconciliaton:

• 

That helps to clarify! So reconciliation isn't the same as forgiveness - and yes, it would be stupid to allow someone into your life who you already know is untrustworthy. I recall a letter that was in Dear Abby, about a woman who was continually beat up by her husband. She counseled with "a well-known evangelist" who advised her to forgive her husband and remain with him. Dear Abby said Christ never told us to turn the other cheek if the first one was black and blue. But if we're to follow Scripture, I don't see where there is clear guidance on issues such as that. Or are there? It just seems as if God leaves us without proper guidance.

But reconciliation definitely is part of the issue.

What happens then too is that it affects your ability to trust again:

John 2:24

“But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,”

 

[Soverign Grace]

Exhortations to forgive are meant to be applied to situations where we are personally offended or sinned against. There is a procedure which the Lord has given to Christians for this purpose, and it is spelled out in Matthew 18 (which addresses a number of issues).

But it seems you are talking about people who are offensive, but have not necessarily offended you personally. Therefore they are not accountable to you.

As to vengeance vs justice, it should be evident that God has ruled out vengeance as a means of retaliation, but He has not ruled out justice as a means of putting things right. In fact He demands that Christians deal justly and fairly with others, indeed go the extra mile.

So what you have are multiple issues here rather, than simply vengeance vs justice. Vengeance belongs to God. Justice may or may not happen in this life. Life ain't fair, and that's the way it is.

I mean as a general principle in a wide range of experiences - it seems that God has left us to hammer it out on our own - unless there are Scriptures that I hadn't thought of? Such as in the case of the corrupt probate lawyer and corrupt lawyer the Executrix hired. Was I really doing God's will by overlooking such overt corruption as the probate lawyer hiding my brief so that the estate lawyer was not held to account for his unlawful actions? I really wrestled with that - and with other applications of the commands to forgive.

Here is another example: the corrupt youth pastor of a church we attended on time, rented out a house to a relative and his friends. I called the youth pastor and literally begged him to not rent the house to them because I knew it would become a "party" house. The youth pastor was a real jerk and tried to act as if he was this honorable man who was keeping his word. My relative was there only a few days when he tried to open up the window and it had been painted shut, severing a major tendon in his right hand.

The corrupt youth pastor promised to pay all the bills "just don't sue me!" My husband was completely hoodwinked by the corrupt youth pastor. I wasn't - I read him well and knew what he and his family were but unfortunately I applied the Scripture where it states "to not take a believer to court." On the very day the statute of limitations was up the youth pastor refused to pay another bill. Our relative was left with a permanent hand injury and no money for medical care, and his livelihood was impaired. I saw just how corrupt Christians could be.

So it appeared that I applied the wrong Scripture.

It's things like this that I see that following Scripture led to a very bad outcome. Did I not take the whole counsel of Scripture? Unfortunately my husband learned too late not to trust those who call themselves "Christians."

As a post script: The corrupt youth pastor got into a lot of trouble with the law several years later - so they were one example I saw of "when the wicked are cut off you will see it." I still wish that God would make them lose their "church" which we think they're using to line their pockets with. I know that the corrupt family of "Christians" have turned many many people away from God. The pastor left their church and called us over and told us just how corrupt the family was. So I can't understand why God is letting them corrupt more people by keeping their "church." Everyone in the area knows what they are and they're showing the unsaved a terrible terrible example.

 

[GodsGrace]

That helps to clarify! So reconciliation isn't the same as forgiveness - and yes, it would be stupid to allow someone into your life who you already know is untrustworthy. I recall a letter that was in Dear Abby, about a woman who was continually beat up by her husband. She counseled with "a well-known evangelist" who advised her to forgive her husband and remain with him. Dear Abby said Christ never told us to turn the other cheek if the first one was black and blue. But if we're to follow Scripture, I don't see where there is clear guidance on issues such as that. Or are there? It just seems as if God leaves us without proper guidance.

But reconciliation definitely is part of the issue.

What happens then too is that it affects your ability to trust again:

John 2:24

“But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,”

We DO have guidance.
The N.T. teaches us that women are to submit to their husbands IF the husband is capable of being the head of the home...not all are.

And it also teaches us that husbands are to love their wives as Jesus loves His Church/Bride. This balances out the submission or it would be a damaged relationship.

So,,,does Jesus slap us around?
No.
Neither should a husband.

No woman is to remain in such a relationship because it is NOT Godly or what God would want.

Bad advice was given to that poor woman.

 

[Nancy]

I know the hurt of which you speak - when a hurt has lasting consequences - it's "a gift that keeps giving." What makes it hard is when someone is a professing Christian. I don't think you're not being judgmental - I think they're very normal reactions to a wrong - but I know that it can keep you tangled up in negative emotions. I have encountered Christians who did more evil than any unbeliever I've known - so that woman may very well be a Christian. Look at David - he committed adultery and murder. I think the pain is much worse when the individual doing wrong is, to the best of our knowledge, Christian.

Yes, that is the really hard part, her being a "Christian"...but then, are we not to "know them by their fruits"? David was very repentant and humble before the Lord, this girl is anything but repentant, will own up to nothing. She is the only person that I can even recall who ever stole from me, shamelessly. I sure wish I could remember what I had stored in the boxes she also took, I am so hoping there were no pictures in there! Okay, deep breath nance, deep breath, lol. It all comes out in the wash and, I do not seek reparation or vengeance as, I know that is God's alone. I sure do pray and hope for her to realize what she has done...I kind of already think she is in regret...not for stealing but, for moving out of the perfect place for her as she will not find a place for 300 bucks including all. Thanks for your kind and wise words SG. ♥

 

[Soverign Grace]

Something to keep in mind is that people CHOOSE to take offence.

We all have the option to simply ignore the offence and the offender and move on. There are a lot of idiots and obnoxious people on this planet.

There are obnoxious people - but what if the offense is really egregious - something that really harms you or someone that you love? It's easy to forgive the rude behavior of another driver, or a harried boss, or any number of insignificant bumps and bruises we get just by living in a world of sinners. But what about the offenses that are life-changing? The offenses that will cost you for the rest of your life? Take for example the relative who was young and naive and didn't sue the youth pastor who rented him an uninspected house? The relative now has a permanent injury to deal with the rest of his life. It impairs his earning a living. But the youth pastor only thought of himself and gave zero thought to what the young man would do the remainder of his life with a severe hand injury. He is a true narcissist.

I felt that we tried to follow Scripture and not take another believer to court but now the relative has zero compensation. I do a little bit of law and I took the case and tried to toll the statutes - as far as I could and the judges were so corrupt it was sickening. They gave the corrupt youth pastor's lawyer several breaks but gave us none. When I read their decision, I could have driven to the local mental hospital to get better-reasoned arguments: it was a pack of lies.

And the youth pastor walked off free. So we followed Scripture and it came out really bad. I haven't been able to reach any kind of settled feeling about it. We tried following God and it appeared to work against us.

 

[Nancy]

That is what I lean towards - keeping someone at arms length who has already proven themselves untrustworthy. But Scripture doesn't seem to cover that and we seem left on our own to hammer it out.

JLuke 6:30ust a couple verses that I have come up with on this subject:
"Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."

1Cor. 6:7
"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?"

So, I guess it all works with "turn the other cheek"
Just some thoughts :)

 

[GodsGrace]

There are obnoxious people - but what if the offense is really egregious - something that really harms you or someone that you love? It's easy to forgive the rude behavior of another driver, or a harried boss, or any number of insignificant bumps and bruises we get just by living in a world of sinners. But what about the offenses that are life-changing? The offenses that will cost you for the rest of your life? Take for example the relative who was young and naive and didn't sue the youth pastor who rented him an uninspected house? The relative now has a permanent injury to deal with the rest of his life. It impairs his earning a living. But the youth pastor only thought of himself and gave zero thought to what the young man would do the remainder of his life with a severe hand injury. He is a true narcissist.

I felt that we tried to follow Scripture and not take another believer to court but now the relative has zero compensation. I do a little bit of law and I took the case and tried to toll the statutes - as far as I could and the judges were so corrupt it was sickening. They gave the corrupt youth pastor's lawyer several breaks but gave us none. When I read their decision, I could have driven to the local mental hospital to get better-reasoned arguments: it was a pack of lies.

And the youth pastor walked off free. So we followed Scripture and it came out really bad. I haven't been able to reach any kind of settled feeling about it. We tried following God and it appeared to work against us.

But this is what forgiveness is all about.
I don't know what you mean by following God...
you did what you had to do that felt right.
And that's all we could do at any given moment.
Who promised you justice in this world?
There is very little of that.
Just forget about it.
(I speak from experience)

 

[GodsGrace]

That is what I lean towards - keeping someone at arms length who has already proven themselves untrustworthy. But Scripture doesn't seem to cover that and we seem left on our own to hammer it out.

Scripture is clear.
You're just not seeing it.
I posted some stuff up above....

 

[Grailhunter]

You brought up some good points - and Satan does seem to be 'crouching at the door' when someone does evil to you and natural emotions of anger kick up that he can use to his advantage. I think it then breaks the hedge that is there protecting us. And Satan knows where our achilles heel is.

It's hard to determine at times what the right decision is. I'm unsure if we are to forgive, or to take appropriate action. One such example of how I wasn't sure what God expected of me: my sister never had a family and was trying to get me back for telling her to not contact my children because she was causing trouble. As Executrix of my father's estate she used a corrupt lawyer to harass me for 11 months trying to pressure me into signing a document taking multiple thousands from my share. The lawyer threatened me in writing and I used that and won in court but then when he finally sent the correct paperwork with my full share, the lawyer had deducted $3k extra for his 11 months of harassing me. I filed a brief in court and the woman lawyer who worked in the probate court was corrupt and "lost" my brief and then when she "found" it she said that I filed it out of time - which was a lie and she knew it - she was working with the corrupt lawyer because he's big man on campus in the area. I wasn't sure if I should just forgive or pursue action and report the woman who worked in the probate court for corruption.

At first I thought that letting it go might draw both corrupt lawyers to God - the one my sister hired, and the one who worked in the probate court. Then as time wore on I became angry that they put my husband and me through such strain just to get my rightful inheritance. And I thought that the lawyer never should have been allowed to charge more money to the estate for his "work" of harassing me for 11 months. And if the corrupt probate lawyer 'hid' my brief trying to block it from being filed, what is she going to do next? I just got to thinking that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with corruption. So that's one example that I wrestled with and wasn't certain what God was calling me to do.

The other issue I saw was when someone did egregious evil and from all outward appearances, looks as if they've gotten away with it. Scripture says "When the wicked are cut off you will see it..." yet God seems to at times let people do monstrous evil and yet never show you that the person was repaid for their evil. It's hard when you believe Scripture - yet you don't see the truth of it come to pass.

Interesting story, and as far as bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people....you have heard the cliche....the rain falls on the just and unjust. That is life and fairness does not abide. But as far as God and you or me, it only matters what we do. What someone else does, is between them and God.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Picture this...you forgive the person...and say, Hi, with a smile, listen to their problems as if nothing happened...bake
them their favorite bread, go to the movies with them....BUT, never leave your gold necklace on the table again!
See? :) Voila!

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, you gave options, good. So following your lead..i say no question, 'always' forgive...be kind..but, keep them at arms length.

And @Deborah...when I say always forgive...there is no need for them to repent.
They can do the same stupid, hurtful thing 70 x7...is what I mean.
Sometimes ya can't change stupid...so forgive.
Let the Lord take care of him. Ha!
(Since a hardened heart towards someone is a burden, oh boy is it...give that to Him!!
Let Dad take care of him behind the woodshed one day.) LOL

nice imo. Any other path, authorities involved? yikes. Puts one pretty firmly under the law imo

 

[Enoch111]

Was I really doing God's will by overlooking such overt corruption as the probate lawyer hiding my brief so that the estate lawyer was not held to account for his unlawful actions? I really wrestled with that - and with other applications of the commands to forgive.

Now this is an entirely different matter. It does not involve forgiveness, but prudence. Christians have every right to protect themselves and their family from harm and evildoers. But they do not need to hold grudges.

 

[Deborah_]

So you think one is to forgive the grievous sin of another, but the relationship shouldn't be restored unless they repent? Do you think that God expects us to restore the relationship?

It's not that the relationship shouldn't be restored, but that it cannot be. It takes two...
King David was persuaded to forgive Absalom for murdering his brother Amnon. But there was no repentance on Absalom's part and the relationship between him and his father was not healed - Absalom went on to plot against David and tried to usurp his throne.

And yes - God does expect us to repent! He is ready and willing to forgive absolutely everyone - but repentance is an essential precondition for the receiving of His forgiveness. The father in the parable of the prodigal son never stopped loving his son - but the son couldn't benefit from his father's love until he swallowed his pride and went home.

We are not expected to forgive in the absence of repentance. We are commanded to forgive "just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 5:32) - i.e. when the offender apologises/repents. Jesus says the same: "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them." (Luke 17:3)

 

[Grailhunter]

It's not that the relationship shouldn't be restored, but that it cannot be. It takes two...
King David was persuaded to forgive Absalom for murdering his brother Amnon. But there was no repentance on Absalom's part and the relationship between him and his father was not healed - Absalom went on to plot against David and tried to usurp his throne.

And yes - God does expect us to repent! He is ready and willing to forgive absolutely everyone - but repentance is an essential precondition for the receiving of His forgiveness. The father in the parable of the prodigal son never stopped loving his son - but the son couldn't benefit from his father's love until he swallowed his pride and went home.

We are not expected to forgive in the absence of repentance. We are commanded to forgive "just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 5:32) - i.e. when the offender apologises/repents. Jesus says the same: "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them." (Luke 17:3)

That is all good. Keep in mind forgiveness heals the victim and perpetrator. So riddle me this; What happens if you forgive first, before they repent?