What Good is Enforced Righteousness?

[Commander Commando]

I know there are many Christians (maybe even a silent majority) to whom this question doesn't really apply. So don't take this as a generalization of Christians or their beliefs, or even an attack on those to whom this question does apply.That said, there are a few things about the Christian movement, especially in politics and legislation, that I can't quite wrap my head around. Basically my question is summed up in, "What good is enforced righteousness?"So I'll start with a few things that I understand to be presuppositions of the Christian faith:

1. The World in its current condition is wicked, filled with sin and sinners; without Christ, everyone in it is destined by nature to damnation.2. The only power in the world that is capable of saving a lost soul is none other than Christ himself.3. In order to be saved, one must make a conscious decision to follow Christ, to believe in the Gospel.​

Of course, I realize there's more to it than just that, but can it be agreed that before any meaningful change in a person's life can take place, those three points must be believed? If so, then there are a few questions I have.In the realm of politics and the governing of a free State -- I understand that Christianity has certain moral requirements, and that the faith requires something more of believers than the World would require otherwise. Some things that take place in the world are therefore understandably uncomfortable for Christians. But there are Christians who seek to explicitly prohibit some behaviors through the government and through laws. I won't get into specifics because I want this to remain a discussion of the larger mindset of these Christians, not devolve into the same tired debate I'm sure most of you have already had (I know I have).My first question about that is, do you believe that by legislating and enforcing righteous behavior, you will produce a more righteous population? If so, doesn't that directly conflict with the idea that only a personal belief in and relationship with Christ can spring righteousness in a person's life?Secondly, does the teaching in the Bible, that the Kingdom of God is not an Earthly kingdom, not apply in this case? I'm not singling Christianity out here except for its own internal doctrines stating that government belongs on earth, and that your relationship with God is something altogether more sacred and on a higher plane.Third, is it even possible to enact legislation that enforces a Christian morality? Considering that the morality of the Christian faith comes from a personal relationship with Christ and study of the scriptures (and that can only be honestly attempted by someone who willfully chooses to do it, despite the temptations of the world), one would assume that Christianity is limited to those who profess it and believe it; that it can be exported and offered to -- but not enforced on -- those who don't believe.Fourth: It would seem therefore that any law that restricts or outlaws "sin" solely on moral grounds circumvents the pivotal role that Free Will must play in true morality, and therefore actually weakens the Christian faith. What good is a life of virtue when there is no choice but virtue? Where is the honesty in chastity when to be unchaste is punishable by law? Why should I commend someone for adhering to a lofty moral regimen when that morality has been reduced to such a degree that it is the defacto state for most people -- not an exception, but the rule? If a believer does all of this honestly and of his own volition, what is there to impress a nonbeliever who sees everyone doing it anyway?Thanks for reading all of this; I hope to hear back from someone soon!

 

[ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr]

Do you believe that by legislating and enforcing righteous behavior, you will produce a more righteous population? If so, doesn't that directly conflict with the idea that only a personal belief in and relationship with Christ can spring righteousness in a person's life?
Actually doesn't the legislated behavior, that congress and presidents have produced resulted in poor behavior? 40-50 years ago before the 10 commandments were taken out of the class room, the greatest offence in class was talking or chewing gum! The Government and the media try to legislate morality ever day. Congress Even crowned Rev. Moon as King! In 2004, at a March 23 ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, U.S. Rep. Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) wore white gloves and carried a pillow holding an ornate crown that was placed on Moon's head[ When christ preached he preached not only to those who did believe but those who might have believed, but were afraid of the consequences of believing him?
Secondly, does the teaching in the Bible, that the Kingdom of God is not an Earthly kingdom, not apply in this case? I'm not singling Christianity out here except for its own internal doctrines stating that government belongs on earth, and that your relationship with God is something altogether more sacred and on a higher plane.
Thy kingdom come thy will be done. Christ comes to earth to set up his kingdom. Thats what the millenium is all about. And the final defeat of those who would oppose him. Everything reflected in heaven comes to earth.
Third, is it even possible to enact legislation that enforces a Christian morality? Considering that the morality of the Christian faith comes from a personal relationship with Christ and study of the scriptures (and that can only be honestly attempted by someone who willfully chooses to do it, despite the temptations of the world), one would assume that Christianity is limited to those who profess it and believe it; that it can be exported and offered to -- but not enforced on -- those who don't believe.
Yea, thats what they want you to believe, personally I don't need Congresses advice. All legislation is based on "Mammon," designed to fill there pockets with money, and disinfranchise the lower class from having any rights but what the elite will let it have. I'm sure a christian nation on its own could handle things just fine, seeing what's going on now in the US. Most of our forefatthers would be turning in there graves if they could see!
Fourth: It would seem therefore that any law that restricts or outlaws "sin" solely on moral grounds circumvents the pivotal role that Free Will must play in true morality, and therefore actually weakens the Christian faith. What good is a life of virtue when there is no choice but virtue? Where is the honesty in chastity when to be unchaste is punishable by law? Why should I commend someone for adhering to a lofty moral regimen when that morality has been reduced to such a degree that it is the defacto state for most people -- not an exception, but the rule? If a believer does all of this honestly and of his own volition, what is there to impress a nonbeliever who sees everyone doing it anyway?
Well the same God that gave us freewill, also gave us the choice to choose the difference. I certainly can't speak for all people. But, secular legislated morality has produced gay marriage, Bush son of a former Nazi posing as a christian, who is just skull and bones, 911 - the total deception of the public as to the true facts, legislated (im)morality from congress and the media, illegal immigration/Nafta designed to weaken the US internally, a disbelief in a divine creator that gave each one of us inalienable rights, etc, etc ...

 

[Commander Commando]

Do you really think that enacting laws based on Christian morality will force the Millennial Reign to come to fruition sooner? That's an interesting belief.Whether the media and the government are legislating anti-Christian morality is not for me to say. Perhaps in the past half century, people have been given (or rather, given themselves) more license to do things that Christians wouldn't do; but that isn't forcing anyone to be a part of it. By "legislating morality" I didn't mean simply allowing some kinds of behaviors, but requiring some kinds of behaviors.Anyway, thanks for letting me know what you think.

 

[ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr]

Do you really think that enacting laws based on Christian morality will force the Millennial Reign to come to fruition sooner?
I never said that. I'm just saying you can't sit back and do nuthin. The story of the priest levite and the samaritan proves that. Despite your beliefs, the media and legislation do influence peoples beliefs. Many times not for good, but for bad. The fact that theres tons of evidence that 9/11 was a inside job, that commission reports have surely shown a bias to skew the lines of truth. That the mainstream media has never and will not ever delve into the true facts, only goes to show that (for instance) FDNY reports of bombs going off and fires being contained in wtc buildings is a manipulation of the public trust. The Public Media owned by the Elite, decides what is newsworthy, why isn't the truth about 9/11 newsworthy? Why isn't the fact the Bush's are 2nd generasstion Nazi's public information? Another reason is that secular society doesn't care and only wants a good time. But, when the NAFTA highway rolls through middle America it'll be to late!

 

[KarlaElisa]

 

[Christina]

The question should actually be addressed to you do you really believe that the farther we have gotten from christain values the world has become a better place? The thing I always find interesting about these conversations is most non christians fail to understand God gave us christian values because he loves us and knew we would be happier more fulfilled human beings with these values. Not as some kind of punishment. I ask would you not teach your child values? Would you teach him to be a thief a murder?It seems we are judged mostly on our views on abortion and Homosexuality yet everyone wants laws based on our other values, No murder,no stealing,lying,honor your parents,ect So you want a nation based on Christian values as long as you can pick and choose which ones you want. But when you have a nation without any Christian values There is no law you have a third world country where only the biggest gun rules.You dont like our values being voiced out loud in congress yet they are the only thing that keeps this country free enough so that you can speak your mind.Try saying what you think in China or N.Korea they dont have any Christian Values.

 

[Wakka]

Food for thought:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
I don't know where I'm going with these quotes. I just felt like they belonged here

.

 

[Commander Commando]

(kriss;14950)
The question should actually be addressed to you do you really believe that the farther we have gotten from christain values the world has become a better place? The thing I always find interesting about these conversations is most non christians fail to understand God gave us christian values because he loves us and knew we would be happier more fulfilled human beings with these values. Not as some kind of punishment. I ask would you not teach your child values? Would you teach him to be a thief a murder?It seems we are judged mostly on our views on abortion and Homosexuality yet everyone wants laws based on our other values, No murder,no stealing,lying,honor your parents,ect So you want a nation based on Christian values as long as you can pick and choose which ones you want. But when you have a nation without any Christian values There is no law you have a third world country where only the biggest gun rules.You dont like our values being voiced out loud in congress yet they are the only thing that keeps this country free enough so that you can speak your mind.Try saying what you think in China or N.Korea they dont have any Christian Values.
For the record, no murder/no lying/honoring one's parents are values that existed long before Christianity, and still exist in more universally than Christianity. That these are "Christian Values" is true in that Christianity also believes in them, but they did not originate with Christianity (or with Moses, for that matter).This discussion is getting close to the Church-vs-State debate that's pretty overplayed. I know it started out on the edge of that, but I'd like to see your opinions about some of the points that maybe I didn't develop well enough in my original post.Do you think that requiring all citizens, Christian or not, to behave in a manner consistent with Christian morality, is a good thing for Christianity? Doesn't assimilating the State and using it as a club with which to beat your critics miss the point of Christianity? It was conceived as a belief system held by a few people in an otherwise wicked world, and it is intended to save the eternal soul, not a fleeting human society.Does it seem to you that focusing so much effort on the political causes of Christians might end up diverting your attention from your own personal walk with God? Jesus said it himself -- let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Has Christianity outgrown of the pacifism of Jesus?

 

[ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr]

Well this discussion could go alot of ways, and certainity ancient law was practiced by abraham before it was written. Though similar in many respects, they were different, which is not unusual. Dispensations, and Adamic lineage has something to do with this also.Let me take a different approach here.-------------------------------------
Do you think that requiring all citizens, Christian or not, to behave in a manner consistent with Christian morality, is a good thing for Christianity?
No, nor is it generally good for science or or political entities to enforce there beliefs on others either. Unless your a Muslim??!!
Doesn't assimilating the State and using it as a club with which to beat your critics miss the point of Christianity?
Well, the Catholic Church did this for a 1000 years plus. Evidently common sense, and inquiring minds broke free. However, like Catholicism or Islam that don't let go so easy and take different more subtle approachs to enforcing there authority and belief systems on others. If we assume the nature of man is essentially bad, laws can work for the good. If we assume like Rousseau in the free republic of France, that all men are basically good, we haven't learned the lessons of history. Government authorities tell us were a democracy, yet the US was suppose to be a republic? Democracy is just Capitalism, where money is the determinor of values and social status. Senators and Representatives are suppose to represent the people but in fact they represent the elite, the people with money, influence or political power. God and Israel had only two forms of government, a Judgeship and a Monarchy. Early christians had a form of Socialism.
It was conceived as a belief system held by a few people in an otherwise wicked world, and it is intended to save the eternal soul, not a fleeting human society.
Sure, then Moses who was the chief prince of Egypt, was lead just to believe he could perform miracles of epic proportion on his own just to save himself. God knows who his people are and they respond to his words as his children.
Does it seem to you that focusing so much effort on the political causes of Christians might end up diverting your attention from your own personal walk with God?
Like it or not were in the world, as travelers or strangers or foriegners, not waiting for God to take us away, but to return. To take his rightful place as King of his creation.
Jesus said it himself -- let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Has Christianity outgrown of the pacifism of Jesus?
Sure, Jesus was a pacifist of sorts. But he did cause much trouble by being good. He turned over the money tables, and defied the priests at every turn. These were rough times back then, Peter obviously was an adept swordman. He was so good with the sword (which he probably always carried around) that he could cut off the ear of anyone who would try and hurt our Lord.

 

[Amy]

(kriss;14950)
The question should actually be addressed to you do you really believe that the farther we have gotten from christain values the world has become a better place? The thing I always find interesting about these conversations is most non christians fail to understand God gave us christian values because he loves us and knew we would be happier more fulfilled human beings with these values. Not as some kind of punishment. I ask would you not teach your child values? Would you teach him to be a thief a murder?It seems we are judged mostly on our views on abortion and Homosexuality yet everyone wants laws based on our other values, No murder,no stealing,lying,honor your parents,ect So you want a nation based on Christian values as long as you can pick and choose which ones you want. But when you have a nation without any Christian values There is no law you have a third world country where only the biggest gun rules.You dont like our values being voiced out loud in congress yet they are the only thing that keeps this country free enough so that you can speak your mind.Try saying what you think in China or N.Korea they dont have any Christian Values.
Very well said sister Kriss :shepard:Not only try saying these things where there are no Christian values, BUT try saying these things where there are Islamic values !!!

 

[Amy]

(ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;14974)
Well this discussion could go alot of ways, and certainity ancient law was practiced by abraham before it was written. Though similar in many respects, they were different, which is not unusual. Dispensations, and Adamic lineage has something to do with this also.Let me take a different approach here.-------------------------------------No, nor is it generally good for science or or political entities to enforce there beliefs on others either. Unless your a Muslim??!!Well, the Catholic Church did this for a 1000 years plus. Evidently common sense, and inquiring minds broke free. However, like Catholicism or Islam that don't let go so easy and take different more subtle approachs to enforcing there authority and belief systems on others. If we assume the nature of man is essentially bad, laws can work for the good. If we assume like Rosseau in the free republic of France, that all men are basically good, we haven't learned the lessons of history. Government authorities tell us were a democracy, yet the US was suppose to be a republic? Democracy is just Capitalism, where money is the determiner of values. God and Israel had only two forms of government, a Judgeship and a Monarchy. Early christians had a form of Socialism.Sure, then Moses who was the chief prince of Egypt, was lead just to believe he could perform miracles of epic proportion on his own just to save himself. God knows who his people are and they respond to his words as his children.Like it or not were in the world, as travelers or strangers or foriegners, not waiting for God to take us away, but to return. To take his rightful place as King of his creation.Sure, Jesus was a pacifist of sorts. But he did cause much trouble by being good. He turned over the money tables, and defied the priests at every turn. These were rough times back then, Peter obviously was an adept swordman. He was so good with the sword (which he probably always carried around) that he could cut off the ear of anyone who would try and hurt our Lord.
Very well said ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr :shepard: In addition one should be glad to have Christian values and count their blessings. If it was for a country like Islamic Rebuplic of Pakistan, one wouldn't even be allowed to vote for presendential elections, being a minority.

 

[Commander Commando]

There is nothing inherent in Christianity that leads it to side with democracy or freedom of speech. The Dark Ages weren't very democratic, and even the Protestants who fled Europe because of religious persecution weren't huge fans of free speech, at least not the ones in Salem.ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr --Can you show me where in the Bible Christians are commanded to behave like Christ will behave when he returns? Everything I've read tells them to behave like he did when he was here the first time, like counting it a blessing every time you are persecuted.Peter was a good swordsman who attacked a soldier involved in Christ's arrest -- and Christ rebuked him for it. Don't forget that little detail. Jesus got angry, sure. He attacked those who perverted his religion into a money-making scheme. Aren't modern-day moneychangers the televangelists and political-action organizations that, rather than focus on their own beliefs, make money selling their agenda to Christianity at large?

 

[Wakka]

(Commander Commando;14985)
There is nothing inherent in Christianity that leads it to side with democracy or freedom of speech. The Dark Ages weren't very democratic, and even the Protestants who fled Europe because of religious persecution weren't huge fans of free speech, at least not the ones in Salem.ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr --Can you show me where in the Bible Christians are commanded to behave like Christ will behave when he returns? Everything I've read tells them to behave like he did when he was here the first time, like counting it a blessing every time you are persecuted.Peter was a good swordsman who attacked a soldier involved in Christ's arrest -- and Christ rebuked him for it. Don't forget that little detail. Jesus got angry, sure. He attacked those who perverted his religion into a money-making scheme. Aren't modern-day moneychangers the televangelists and political-action organizations that, rather than focus on their own beliefs, make money selling their agenda to Christianity at large?
The ten commandments were a rule by God. And when Jesus came down, he lived by those rules. It's not so much us being like God, but abiding the the laws that God has set. And by doing that, we are righteous.And yes, many televangelists are crooked. Say perverted with money.

 

[ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr]

There is nothing inherent in Christianity that leads it to side with democracy or freedom of speech. The Dark Ages weren't very democratic, and even the Protestants who fled Europe because of religious persecution weren't huge fans of free speech, at least not the ones in Salem.
Lets 1st put this in context, 1 the founders (ordinary people) came here for 2 reasons, to escape religious persecution, and or to start a new life. Most of these people weren't highly educated, were somewhat superstitous, and lived an agrarian lifestyle, or were hunters, dealt in trade, or came here with skills such as blacksmithing. Salem is about a poor example as you can use since it consisted of an agrarian city/state of farmers who, w/o the knowledge we have today, are known to have suffered from ergot poisoning of barley or rye crops. The symptoms they suffered could easily be misconstrued as insanity, or drug inducted behavior. Obviously they weren't very skilled farmers either, this type of event is known throughout history, and any farmer worth his salt would have eventually discovered it.
Can you show me where in the Bible Christians are commanded to behave like Christ will behave when he returns? Everything I've read tells them to behave like he did when he was here the first time, like counting it a blessing every time you are persecuted.
The parable of the groom returning is based on Jewish custom, I can't go into all the details here. But yes we are to wait for him, in a manner befitting his return. I can name more than a few people like Moses, David, Samson, etc who weren't perfect, who did God's will despite there inadequacies. Men of God not wimps. The disciples were a bunch of fishermen, not Jews, Samaritans who were despised by the Jews. Yet each and everyone one of them suffered death and persecution in foriegn lands at the hands of there murders preaching the message of the Gospel. Persecution is pain, and life is hardly cut and dried, but we need to endure hoping for his promised return. When the bible says turn the other cheek, it means you've been already hit on one and your offering the other. How many cheeks do you have but 2?
Peter was a good swordsman who attacked a soldier involved in Christ's arrest -- and Christ rebuked him for it. Don't forget that little detail. Jesus got angry, sure. He attacked those who perverted his religion into a money-making scheme. Aren't modern-day moneychangers the televangelists and political-action organizations that, rather than focus on their own beliefs, make money selling their agenda to Christianity at large?
I didn't forget that detail, but adding that detail enlarges the scope of the discussion, which is getting larger all the time. The fact that they had swords and knew how to use them should be enough to answer the question w/o having to go into details. Yes, I think prosperity promises as Gospel fact are over-rated. But, this puts them on the other side of the fence for me. I'd say most televangelists care more about money and there little corner of heaven than they do about God or his Word. Nuthing new there though. Heck, non-religious people do this also, its just another scam, with someone poising as something they aren't, using a MofO to take money from people.