What does Our Savior consider Idolatry

[liafailrock]

Your information about Saturnalia is patently false.
Saturnalia wasn't celebrated on December 25th. It ran from December 17th to the 23rd. It was over and done with 2 days before the 25th.

Around A.D. 206, St. Hippolytus of Rome wrote in his Commentary on Daniel that:
"The first coming of our Lord, that in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the kalends of January."

This was written around 100 years from the time that the Apostle John was presumable still alive.

History shows that SOME pagans celebrated the birth of Sol Invictus on December 25th, but the first such record dates from the year A.D. 354 (on what is known as the Calendar of Filocalus or the Chronology of 354). This is a full 148 years AFTER the writing from Hippolytus . . .

Celebrating Christmas is a good and noble Christian endeavor.

No it's not false. Even wikipedia knows that much. Just like St Nicolas was in early December but associated with "Santa Claus" on Decenmber 25th, so the solstice was associated with xmas. On December 25th the sun was observed to move upward again, thus the b-day of the sun god. Stop fooling yourself. You have to know about times and seasons and understand about time and the calendar.

 

[bbyrd009]

good luck there lol

Read post #318, Einstein . . .

hey if i want fiction, i read Asimov, but ty

 

[liafailrock]

That's good that you accept those Books as inspired - but I was referring to the majority of Protestants who don't.
Why do you accept them when most of your Protestant brothers don't?

And who says I'm Protestant? BTW, I trust you celebrate Hanukkah as I do, because it's in the books of Maccabees. Christmas is NOT in the bible nor those "apocryphal" books so-called by the Protestants.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it's not false. Even wikipedia knows that much. Just like St Nicolas was in early December but associated with "Santa Claus" on Decenmber 25th, so the solstice was associated with xmas. On December 25th the sun was observed to move upward again, thus the b-day of the sun god. Stop fooling yourself. You have to know about times and seasons and understand about time and the calendar.

You didn't actually read my post, did you?
You didn't take into consideration that Hippolytus wrote about the recognition of Christmas a full 148 years BEFORE the first recorded pagan celebration of Sol Invictus in AD 354.

Your problem is that you've been so polluted by anti-Catholic nonsense like Alexander Hislop's, The Two Babylons and all of this wacky Jack Chick tracts that you don't know the truth from fiction. The funny thing about history is that it's ALL there for you to see and it can't be changed - only LIED about.

Oh, and from wikipedia.com:
Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December.

 

[tabletalk]

Because Christmas was Christianized from the pagan feast of Saturnalia. In addition, Jeremiah 10 warns about not learning the ways of the heathen, with the xmas tree. Jeremiah 10:1-5. That's just a start.

If it is true that the "pagan feast of Saturnalia" got Christianized, and became what we think of as Christmas, then that is exactly what should happen to the entire world by the Spirit of God.
Jeremiah 10:1-5 ends by saying
"Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”

Wouldn't the teaching of these verses be, to not think they have any power? Isaiah talks about what God thinks of a log cut in two pieces; half for cooking and warmth, and half to worship. That is an idol. I don't see a Christmas tree as an idol, though.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And who says I'm Protestant? BTW, I trust you celebrate Hanukkah as I do, because it's in the books of Maccabees. Christmas is NOT in the bible nor those "apocryphal" books so-called by the Protestants.

My mistake - I assumed that you were a Christian.
I didn't realize that you were Jewish.

As for celebrating Hanukkah - no, I don't observe Jewish feasts. I'm a Christian.

 

[liafailrock]

You didn't actually read my post, did you?
You didn't take into consideration that Hippolytus wrote about the recognition of Christmas a full 148 years BEFORE the first recorded pagan celebration of Sol Invictus in AD 354.

Your problem is that you've been so polluted by anti-Catholic nonsense like Alexander Hislop's, The Two Babylons and all of this wacky Jack Chick tracts that you don't know the truth from fiction. The funny thing about history is that it's ALL there for you to see and it can't be changed - only LIED about.

Oh, and from wikipedia.com:
Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December.

Yeah, I did, but don't agree. You forgot this part from wiki:

Many popular customs associated with Christmas developed independently of the commemoration of Jesus' birth, with certain elements having origins in pre-Christian festivals that were celebrated around the winter solstice by pagan populations who were later converted to Christianity. These elements, including the Yule log from Yule and gift giving from Saturnalia,[86] became syncretized into Christmas over the centuries. The prevailing atmosphere of Christmas has also continually evolved since the holiday's inception, ranging from a sometimes raucous, drunken, carnival-like state in the Middle Ages,[87] to a tamer family-oriented and children-centered theme introduced in a 19th-century transformation.[88][89] Additionally, the celebration of Christmas was banned on more than one occasion within certain Protestant groups, such as the Puritans, due to concerns that it was too pagan or unbiblical.[48][90] Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the celebration of Christmas.

So maybe you'd like to explain to us all why you celebrate something that's not stated in the Bible, nor "apocrypha"? As for me, I celebrate the feasts in Leviticus 23. So.... find the error in that. The feast days were shadows of things to come prophetic of the future. Trust me, you won't find anything prophetic in Christmas, or Easter, or Hallowmas or any other of the 8 worldly Sabbaths. Nor on the 8th day "Sabbath" for that matter.

 

[liafailrock]

And one other thing. I am a Christian. Perhaps Messianic, not Gentile, but not caught up in man-made festivals that are not biblical. If you want to hit hard at people for not obeying other scriptures they don't observe, then you batter be following them yourself. That's only commonsense.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, I did, but don't agree. You forgot this part from wiki:

Many popular customs associated with Christmas developed independently of the commemoration of Jesus' birth, with certain elements having origins in pre-Christian festivals that were celebrated around the winter solstice by pagan populations who were later converted to Christianity. These elements, including the Yule log from Yule and gift giving from Saturnalia,[86] became syncretized into Christmas over the centuries. The prevailing atmosphere of Christmas has also continually evolved since the holiday's inception, ranging from a sometimes raucous, drunken, carnival-like state in the Middle Ages,[87] to a tamer family-oriented and children-centered theme introduced in a 19th-century transformation.[88][89] Additionally, the celebration of Christmas was banned on more than one occasion within certain Protestant groups, such as the Puritans, due to concerns that it was too pagan or unbiblical.[48][90] Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the celebration of Christmas.

So maybe you'd like to explain to us all why you celebrate something that's not stated in the Bible, nor "apocrypha"? As for me, I celebrate the feasts in Leviticus 23. So.... find the error in that. The feast days were shadows of things to come prophetic of the future. Trust me, you won't find anything prophetic in Christmas, or Easter, or Hallowmas or any other of the 8 worldly Sabbaths. Nor on the 8th day "Sabbath" for that matter.

Ahhh - so you are a Jehovah's Witness then - or some other offshoot of that sect.
Did you celebrate your graduation from high school or college?

The plain fact is that you erroneously said that Christmas was a replacement of Saturnalia - and I've already proven you wrong about that.

 

[Helen]

We are talking back and forth about Christian here...so I don't think this post would be off topic, as it's not a "christmas" thread...

Just wondering...what about Birthdays?!!
Does everyone celebrate their birthday?
We are nowhere told to celebrate our birthday in the bible.
And those who did..were all bad.
Birthday celebrations are mentioned in the Bible on three separate occasions and, in each case, something terrible occurred!!

The first account is in Genesis. Pharaoh, the Egyptian king, celebrated his birthday by executing his chief baker (Gen. 40:1-23). God gave Joseph special understanding of a dream by Pharaoh’s butler and baker, that the baker would lose his life three days after Joseph interpreted the dream. Joseph understood that Pharaoh would use this occasion....his own birthday party....to put his baker to death. As the dream had foretold, the baker was hung at the party.

.... N.T. Herod the tetrarch reluctantly ordered the beheading of John the Baptist (Matt. 14:3-11). verse six: “But when Herod’s birthday was kept…” During the dancing and merry-making at his birthday party, Herod got carried away and eventually made a promise that he did not want to keep. As a result, John The Baptist lost his life.

In the book of Job. The Bible says that Job’s seven sons “went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them” (Job 1:4). These parties were obviously not centred around any kind of celebration relating to God...maybe sounds like their birthdays?

Thoughts?

 

[BreadOfLife]

And one other thing. I am a Christian. Perhaps Messianic, not Gentile, but not caught up in man-made festivals that are not biblical. If you want to hit hard at people for not obeying other scriptures they don't observe, then you batter be following them yourself. That's only commonsense.

You're a Scriptural Literalist. Peter wrote about people like you when he said:
2 Pet. 3:16
There are some things in them (Paul's letters) that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[liafailrock]

Ahhh - so you are a Jehovah's Witness then - or some other offshoot of that sect.
Did you celebrate your graduation from high school or college?

The plain fact is that you erroneously said that Christmas was a replacement of Saturnalia - and I've already proven you wrong about that.

It's man's nature to want to categorize a person, to fit them into a slot. No, I'm not that, either. And I don't know what you are either other then the fact you claim you are Christian but don't follow "Jewish" feasts, but this abomination called Christmas. They are not Jewish feasts. They are the FEASTS OF THE LORD for all to follow including Gentiles. The Jews merely were the oracle people to bring this to the world. Don't you understand that? Then you have no clue of the bible and celebrate a Jesus of your imagination. But I hope I am wrong about that assessment. After all, not everyone with symptoms of cancer has cancer. One can hope for the best.

 

[liafailrock]

You're a Scriptural Literalist. Peter wrote about people like you when he said:
2 Pet. 3:16
There are some things in them (Paul's letters) that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Wow! You are describing yourself. I challenge you what scriptures I am twisting? From my end, it's the observation that you celebrate Christmas not in the bible. So who's twisting what here?

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's man's nature to want to categorize a person, to fit them into a slot. No, I'm not that, either. And I don't know what you are either other then the fact you claim you are Christian but don't follow "Jewish" feasts, but this abomination called Christmas. They are not Jewish feasts. They are the FEASTS OF THE LORD for all to follow including Gentiles. The Jews merely were the oracle people to bring this to the world. Don't you understand that? Then you have no clue of the bible and celebrate a Jesus of your imagination. But I hope I am wrong about that assessment. After all, not everyone with symptoms of cancer has cancer. One can hope for the best.

Hmmmm, I assumed you were a JW because you claim you're not a Protestant but claim to be a Christian.
A Protestant by definition is a non-Catholic Christian. This coupled with the wacky ideas you have about Christmas and other celebrations led me to assume that you were a JW because these are not "Christian" beliefs.

As for your judgement of me not celebrating Jewish feasts - Paul says in NO uncertain terms:
Col. 2:16
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.
These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to CHRIST.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wow! You are describing yourself. I challenge you what scriptures I am twisting? From my end, it's the observation that you celebrate Christmas not in the bible. So who's twisting what here?

Read post #334 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's man's nature to want to categorize a person, to fit them into a slot. No, I'm not that, either. And I don't know what you are either other then the fact you claim you are Christian but don't follow "Jewish" feasts, but this abomination called Christmas. They are not Jewish feasts. They are the FEASTS OF THE LORD for all to follow including Gentiles. The Jews merely were the oracle people to bring this to the world. Don't you understand that? Then you have no clue of the bible and celebrate a Jesus of your imagination. But I hope I am wrong about that assessment. After all, not everyone with symptoms of cancer has cancer. One can hope for the best.

By the way - you never answered my question:
Did you celebrate your graduation from high school or college?

Is it wrong to celebrate these things??
After all - they are NOT in Scripture . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are talking back and forth about Christian here...so I don't think this post would be off topic, as it's not a "christmas" thread...

Just wondering...what about Birthdays?!!
Does everyone celebrate their birthday?
We are nowhere told to celebrate our birthday in the bible.
And those who did..were all bad.
Birthday celebrations are mentioned in the Bible on three separate occasions and, in each case, something terrible occurred!!

The first account is in Genesis. Pharaoh, the Egyptian king, celebrated his birthday by executing his chief baker (Gen. 40:1-23). God gave Joseph special understanding of a dream by Pharaoh’s butler and baker, that the baker would lose his life three days after Joseph interpreted the dream. Joseph understood that Pharaoh would use this occasion....his own birthday party....to put his baker to death. As the dream had foretold, the baker was hung at the party.

.... N.T. Herod the tetrarch reluctantly ordered the beheading of John the Baptist (Matt. 14:3-11). verse six: “But when Herod’s birthday was kept…” During the dancing and merry-making at his birthday party, Herod got carried away and eventually made a promise that he did not want to keep. As a result, John The Baptist lost his life.

In the book of Job. The Bible says that Job’s seven sons “went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them” (Job 1:4). These parties were obviously not centred around any kind of celebration relating to God...maybe sounds like their birthdays?
Thoughts?

It's not the celebration of the birthdays in these passages that was bad - but the actions of those in the stories.
Don't forget - Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah, Laban's older daughter - at a wedding celebration.
Does that mean that ALL marriage celebrations are bad?

Is it wrong to celebrate your graduation from high school or college?
If so - why?

 

[Helen]

It's not the celebration of the birthdays in these passages that was bad - but the actions of those in the stories.
Don't forget - Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah, Laban's older daughter - at a wedding celebration.
Does that mean that ALL marriage celebrations are bad?

Is it wrong to celebrate your graduation from high school or college?
If so - why?

Good points. Never thought of that. :)

and...my answer is NO...I never celebrated graduation, as I didn't graduate from High School or College!!!! LOL
( my dad made me leave school at 14 1/2 and go to work!! )
But I have been to all my grandkids University graduations and celebrated all their Degrees.. :)

 

[liafailrock]

Hmmmm, I assumed you were a JW because you claim you're not a Protestant but claim to be a Christian.
A Protestant by definition is a non-Catholic Christian. This coupled with the wacky ideas you have about Christmas and other celebrations led me to assume that you were a JW because these are not "Christian" beliefs.

As for your judgement of me not celebrating Jewish feasts - Paul says in NO uncertain terms:
Col. 2:16
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.
These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to CHRIST.

Right! I take strength in this passage when people try to judge me for keeping the feasts. He was saying to those who keep them not to let other tell them the manner of doing so. In like manner pertaining to non-biblical feasts Paul also said,

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Now if you look at all my comments carefully, you see that I am basically bashing Christmas to which you cited a verse totally out of context about twisting what Paul said to one's destruction. Indeed, I cite what Paul said in the above verse. I don't know how you associate my bashing of a pagan holiday with twisting scripture.

As for graduations and b-days, yeah, I participate, but outwardly. I think they are hokey. Nobody told me not to, but there's a "pomp and circumstance" about them that elevates pride and inwardly I think its corny. Of course I am proud when my sons graduated and became engineers, ceremonies aside, which I hated the crowds and show, but one should do that in the context of what God gave to them and not as the world celebrates that. If there is sin in that, then I repent.

Now.... back to the question at hand.

 

[Truth]

That's not what I said.
I simply asked you WHY you adhere to a Canon of Scripture that was declared by the Authority of the Catholic Church - when you reject that Authority.

You have posted angry response after angry response - but you just can't seem to answer this question.
NO Protestant has EVER been able to answer it on this forum - let alone the anti-Catholic ones like you . . .

I rarely get angry, that is a presumption on your part, I would consider myself a free willed person, so as I said I reject the Authority of the Catholic Church, by choice. But that will not be an except-able answer for you. I would expect a intellect as yourself to have the comprehension skill's to understand my answer.