WHAT DID JESUS MEAN TO BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT

[Scott Downey]

Hi Scott,
Just a quick question and comment. If we are to be born again, we would have to have been born already, once (through the flesh or, from your mother which yes, it is of the flesh -John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So, you do not believe that the 1st time we were born (in sin) means anything here?

Comment- Also, I see nothing in the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus concerning even the word itself; baptism or, water baptism which is not of the flesh, but natural birth does.

Thanks!

We already know only people can get saved, Jesus was not sent to save angels.
Here we read about the living water which Jesus gives that saves a person

The Promise of the Holy Spirit​

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [a]believing in Him would receive; for the [b]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”

17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

 

[Nancy]

We already know only people can get saved, Jesus was not sent to save angels.
Here we read about the living water which Jesus gives that saves a person

The Promise of the Holy Spirit​

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [a]believing in Him would receive; for the [b]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 4
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”

17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Hmm, not at all sure of what this has to do with Jesus and Nicodemus's conversation. But thanks :)

 

[Scott Downey]

Hmm, not at all sure of what this has to do with Jesus and Nicodemus's conversation. But thanks :)

Everything, Jesus is talking about living water to Nicodemus, what other water would he talk about? I gave some examples.

Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again he says to Nicodemus, so nothing to do with being born of the flesh by a woman as that's according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. Jesus's words are spirit and they are life

 

[Scott Downey]

"But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

So you must be born of the water that Christ will give you

 

[Nancy]

Everything, Jesus is talking about living water to Nicodemus, what other water would he talk about? I gave some examples.

Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again he says to Nicodemus, so nothing to do with being born of the flesh by a woman as that's according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. Jesus's words are spirit and they are life

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
1st birth, flesh 2nd birth, Spirit.

But this is not something we must agree on brother, thank you for the replies.

 

[Scott Downey]

I hold to the second interpretation as Jesus is talking of a spiritual rebirth. not a physical rebirth

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? - Compelling Truth

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? What does it mean to be born of water? What was Jesus communicating to Nicodemus when He talked about being born of water and spirit?

www.compellingtruth.org

The second interpretation sees being born of water as spiritual cleansing. This aligns with passages in the Old Testament, such as Ezekiel 36:25–27, which Nicodemus would have been well aware of: "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Given that Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand, this second interpretation carries as much weight as the first. According to this view, being born of water and of the Spirit are essentially the same thing: the Holy Spirit cleanses and renews the spirit of a man.

 

[JohnDB]

Torah Tahorah....
Water is LAW. ( A grade school symbolism of understanding among the Jews)
It doesn't matter how many people have preached something different because they are unfamiliar with Jewish life in the ANE.

[John 3:3, 5 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Only Israel could be born again. Israel was born of God as his firstborn son. Christ was saying they had to be born again by the spirit.

[Exo 4:22 KJV] 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

The verses above in John 3 speak of the Kingdom of God.
The kingdom is found in the prophets:

[Isa 9:7 KJV] 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[Dan 7:18 KJV] 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Jesus was saying the prophetic kingdom was at hand:

[Mat 4:17, 23 KJV] 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. ... 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

The kingdom is described in the prophets
Israel will be restored:

[Deu 30:3 KJV] 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

[Deu 30:5 KJV] 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

[Isa 11:9 KJV] 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[Isa 56:7 KJV] 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[Isa 65:25 KJV] 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The Lord will make a new covenant with Israel:

[Jer 31:31, 33 KJV] 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: ... 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The new covenant will be the water and the spirit that Jesus said was needed to enter the kingdom on earth. To see the kingdom in John 3:3 entails seeing the kingdom by being in it:

[Eze 36:24-27 KJV] 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]

 

[Scott Downey]

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

What is the context? What is He talking about? Entering the kingdom of God, as in becoming a new creation in Christ.

Born of the flesh is not the subject. The first birth is not good enough to enter the kingdom as in saved, you must be born again.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If you are born of the Spirit you are born again

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind (of God's Spirit) blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[DJT_47]

The purpose for being baptized in water cannot be a display of salvation, because many are baptized in water who have never turned to Christ for eternal life. I believe water baptism signifies obedience for outward membership within the covenant body of Christ in the same way circumcision of Old signified belonging to the covenant body. Just as circumcision was required under the Old Covenant for anyone who wanted to be part of the covenant people of Old, so too, water baptism is a requirement given us by Christ as a way of knowing those who are part of the body of Christ in this world outwardly. This is NOT what saves man, only baptism through the Holy Spirit can change the heart inwardly, and that is how we both know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God spiritually.

The answer is quite simple as to the purpose of water Baptism. Acts 2:38 states it emphatically which is supported by other scriptures. Simply put, it's for the remission of sins, and then upon being obedient, you then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwellingif tge Spirit, and are added to the body of Christ, becoming a child of God and a Christian (Acts 2:47).

 

[Grailhunter]

Born of water the new man from Baptism and born of Spirit….Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[charity]

[John 3:3, 5 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

- Only Israel could be born again. Israel was born of God as his firstborn son. Christ was saying they had to be born again by the spirit.

[Exo 4:22 KJV] 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:​

- The verses above in John 3 speak of the Kingdom of God.
- The kingdom is found in the prophets:

[Isa 9:7 KJV] 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.​

​

[Dan 7:18 KJV] 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.​

- Jesus was saying the prophetic kingdom was at hand:

[Mat 4:17, 23 KJV] 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. ... 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​

- The kingdom is described in the prophets
- Israel will be restored:

[Deu 30:3 KJV] 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.​

​

[Deu 30:5 KJV] 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.​

​

[Isa 11:9 KJV] 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.​

[Isa 56:7 KJV] 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.​

​

[Isa 65:25 KJV] 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.​

- The Lord will make a new covenant with Israel:

[Jer 31:31, 33 KJV] 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: ... 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

- The new covenant will be the water and the spirit that Jesus said was needed to enter the kingdom on earth. To see the kingdom in John 3:3 entails seeing the kingdom by being in it:

[Eze 36:24-27 KJV] 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]​

Subject Heading:- WHAT DID JESUS MEAN TO BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5)

Hello @Doug,

Looking at the verse above, in which the words in question arise:- 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit', I see that there is a figure of speech being used, for as there is no article applied to either of the two nouns: Though two words are used, 'water' and 'Spirit', only one thing is meant; this is indicated by it's use in verses 6 and 8:-

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.'
(Joh 3:6-8)

* It is the Spirit that is being referred to. The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things', (see verse 12). And as, 'a master in Israel', he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:25-27 concerning the Kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared:- 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... ... And I will put my spirit within you,' etc.,

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.
Hence there is only one thing meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' That spiritual water stands, by another figure, for the Holy Spirit Himself, is clear from John 7:38,39:- 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... ... ').

So there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God; a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref:- 'Figures of Speech used in The Bible' by E.W. Bullinger

 

[charity]

I hold to the second interpretation as Jesus is talking of a spiritual rebirth. not a physical rebirth

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? - Compelling Truth

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? What does it mean to be born of water? What was Jesus communicating to Nicodemus when He talked about being born of water and spirit?

www.compellingtruth.org

The second interpretation sees being born of water as spiritual cleansing. This aligns with passages in the Old Testament, such as Ezekiel 36:25–27, which Nicodemus would have been well aware of: "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

Given that Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand, this second interpretation carries as much weight as the first. According to this view, being born of water and of the Spirit are essentially the same thing: the Holy Spirit cleanses and renews the spirit of a man.

Hello @Scott Downey,

When you acknowledged my entry, I looked back to see if you had entered yourself, and read your entries made earlier on this page. I agree with what you say in them, but question the last few words in the one quoted above, namely:- 'the Holy Spirit cleanses and renews the spirit of a man.' Forgive me Scott, but are you referring to, 'the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost,' as spoken of in Titus 3:4-6?

'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly
through Jesus Christ our Saviour;'
(Tit 3:4-6)

* If so, I have no problem.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug]

Subject Heading:- WHAT DID JESUS MEAN TO BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5)

Hello @Doug,

Looking at the verse above, in which the words in question arise:- 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit', I see that there is a figure of speech being used, for as there is no article applied to either of the two nouns: Though two words are used, 'water' and 'Spirit', only one thing is meant; this is indicated by it's use in verses 6 and 8:-

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.'
(Joh 3:6-8)

* It is the Spirit that is being referred to. The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things', (see verse 12). And as, 'a master in Israel', he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:25-27 concerning the Kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared:- 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... ... And I will put my spirit within you,' etc.,

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.
Hence there is only one thing meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' That spiritual water stands, by another figure, for the Holy Spirit Himself, is clear from John 7:38,39:- 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... ... ').

So there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God; a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref:- 'Figures of Speech used in The Bible' by E.W. Bullinger

Interesting
which passages were quotes of Bullinger?

 

[Scott Downey]

Hello @Scott Downey,

When you acknowledged my entry, I looked back to see if you had entered yourself, and read your entries made earlier on this page. I agree with what you say in them, but question the last few words in the one quoted above, namely:- 'the Holy Spirit cleanses and renews the spirit of a man.' Forgive me Scott, but are you referring to, 'the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost,' as spoken of in Titus 3:4-6?

'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which He shed on us abundantly
through Jesus Christ our Saviour;'
(Tit 3:4-6)

* If so, I have no problem.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Just copied what was written on that site

 

[Verily]

Once again for clarity, most people make the mistake regarding your first comment wherein said

" I am just acknowledging that its shown both ways, the receiving of the Holy Ghost after being baptized by water and also before being baptized by water."

You need to read the related scriptures more carefully since your statement is a bit flawed in its logic.

In Acts 2:38, it says "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

It says "gift", singular, not gifts, meaning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit itself and not a manifestation of the Spirit, one of the gifts of the Spirit, one of those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10; big difference. The various gifts of the Spirit, like tongues, which happened in Acts 10 when the Spirit fell, and likewise in Acts 2. You'll also find, upon careful study, that the gifts or manifestations of the Spirit, were part of the power from on high promised to the 11 apostles by Jesus as recorded in Luke 24:49, and the manifestations were only enabled by the apostles via the laying on of their hands.

How is receiving the Holy Ghost before and after one is baptized with water considered a flawed logic when it shows both?

 

[Pearl]

A simple answer to the OP is that obviously we are born naturally but we also need to be born spiritually or re-born or born again.

 

[Verily]

Also, does anyone know which baptism John said he needed to be baptized with by Jesus?

I keep getting led down rabbit trails and trying to get each ones understanding on what John meant by that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Also, does anyone know which baptism John said he needed to be baptized with by Jesus?

I keep getting led down rabbit trails and trying to get each ones understanding on what John meant by that.

That would have been the one John mentioned Jesus does.
And also being added to the church
Being a prophet, he might have known how Jesus was going to build His church, that the church people would be entering into the Kingdom of God through Christ.

Matthew 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[DJT_47]

How is receiving the Holy Ghost before and after one is baptized with water considered a flawed logic when it shows both?

You don't get it. Receiving the Holy Spirit as indicated in Acts 2:38 is the spirit itself, not one of the gifts of the Spirit, one of those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Read more carefully! The GIFT of the Holy Ghost is THE Holy Ghost and not one of its gifts or a manifestation of it.

 

[Verily]

That would have been the one John mentioned Jesus does.

Matthew 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Which one? Holy Spirit (which John already had from the womb) or fire or that which is spoken of in John 4:1-2?

John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

What was the baptism in the above? Water, Spirit, or Fire?