What constitutes penance!

[quietthinker]

why are you ridiculing Christ?

in case you can't tell the difference tf, it is you who is being ridiculed, not Jesus!

 

[amigo de christo]

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repentance is not penance.

Repentance means to turn around. To stop living the way you were living before you knew the Lord and begin to follow him and his ways.

Definition of penance
1: an act of self-abasement, mortification (see MORTIFICATION sense 3), or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin He did charitable work as a penance.
2: a sacramental rite that is practiced in Roman, Eastern, and some Anglican churches and that consists of private confession, absolution, and a penance directed by the confessor (see CONFESSOR sense 3a)
3: something (such as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)

You can't work your way to salvation. Jesus already did it for you.
There is no penance you can perform that will justify yourself.

If you do something wrong, then you should have a conviction in your heart. And you are sorry that you messed up.
You then can ask Jesus to forgive you. Jesus is our High Priest and mediator between man and God.
And no one comes to the Father but through him.
Acts of charity should come from a willingness of heart out of love, rather than a duty to try to "make up" for ones sins.

Penance is not biblical.
You can't pray repititiously, over and over and over.. as if God didn't hear you the first time.
A prayer must come from the heart and not a "recorded" message used to replace true remorse.
You can't pay for forgiveness. One must ask and believe they receive, and go and sin no more.
You can't earn forgiveness by substituting doing something charitable in place of asking for forgiveness.
And no man can take away your sins on earth except the Lord Jesus who died and paid the penalty for them.
That's between you and the Lord alone.
Confess your sins to the Lord.

Hugs

Ziggy , that is what JESUS said . BE NOT LIKE the heathen
repetitive chants , thinking they will be HEARED for their MANY WORDS .
YEAH . My advice remains the same . LET us have no unity and make no covenant
with the well favored harlot nor her daughters . JUST LEARN the JESUS of the BIBLE and learn
what the apostels also said and taught . THE CC is dangerous . THEY have fully become just like
the disobediant jews . THEY make broad their clothing , they love to be called HOLY father and reverand
they love the worship of men . THE CC sold out long , long ago .
THERE is a list so long i could bring to show us exactly HOW they have become the very THING
our own LORD JESUS warned us about as did the apostels too .
BEWARE this unity call as well . WE cant have unity with those who sit at a table of darkness .
OUR UNITY is ONLY with those who LOVE CHRIST and exalt HIM . Be on gaurd , though , cause this unity
stuff has crept into the protestant realm HUGE . many are being sold a false unity and a false love .

 

[theefaith]

Just because you have gone through the concordance and quoted all these verses doesn't prove anything at all. None of the verses actually link the teaching of Jesus Christ to the Roman Catholic Church. Just a quick reading of church history clearly shows that there is no line of Apostolic succession at all. One pope poisoned another, another appointed himself pope while the other was still in Rome. Even in recent years, John Paul I was poisoned because he wanted to bring reforms into the church, and Pope Benedict who also intended radical reforms into church finances, was told to resign or suffer the same fate! Obviously, "Apostolic Succession" is manipulated by whoever was and is in power, making it a load of absolute material that comes out of the backside of a horse! Peter was never a bishop of Rome, so the "Chair of Peter" is a fraud because there is no such thing, there is probably more of grace in the chair I'm currently sitting on! How about coming up with a few verses that prove that Mary is seated with Christ at the right hand of God, so i can have some more stuff to laugh at?

they are not claiming to be impeccable
They are human and sinners like you and me

Doctrine is another matter

the truth is revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by the church Matt 28:19

truth is immutable
The church is ir-reformable

apostolic succession follows

 

[theefaith]

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So there must be successors to the apostles, the USA was not a nation for 1800 years after the apostles, yet He says teach all nations!

And behold I am with you (the apostles) to the end of the world!


Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

Same mission, power, and authority Jn 20:21-23

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the apostles) until the end of the world,so the successors of the apostles must remain until the end of the world) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18

 

[theefaith]

Use a feather duster to get the dust off your copy of the Bible and read it for yourself.

the one posting a proposition must provide documentation, I always do

 

[theefaith]

Matthew 3:2 deals with repentance, which involves ceasing to disobey the Ten Commandments. It is what we stop doing that is displeasing to God, rather than doing anything to try and show God that we are sorry for our sins.

Penance is merely an invention of the Roman Catholic Church, and means absolutely nothing to God and therefore it is just a useless activity.

yes true but also make reparation to the divine justice

 

[theefaith]

we might ask the same of you :)
penance is a satanic concept, sorry; completely against Christianity
confess your sins, one to another
forgive and you will be forgiven

and i guess it goes without saying, but you once again are not in Kansas anymore, D

Satanic?

explain Lk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.



Penance!

In the Old Testament the religious sense of penitence is revealed with even greater richnessc. Even though man generally has recourse to it in the aftermath of sin to placate the wrath of God, or on the occasion of grave calamities, or when special dangers are imminent, or in any case to obtain benefits from the Lord, we can nevertheless establish that external penitential practices are accompanied by an inner attitude of "conversion," that is to say of condemnation of and detachment from sin and of striving toward God. One goes without food or gives away his property (fasting is generally accompanied not only by prayer but also by alms) even after sins have been forgiven and independently of a request for graces. One fasts or applies physical discipline to "chastise one's own soul," to "humble oneself in the sight of his own God," to "turn one's face toward Jehovah," to "dispose oneself to prayer," to "understand" more intimately the things which are divine, or to prepare oneself for the encounter with God.

Penance therefore—already in the Old Testament—is a religious, personal act which has as its aim love and surrender to God: fasting for the sake of God, not for one's own self. Such it must remain also in the various penitential rites sanctioned by law. When this is not verified, the Lord is displeased with His people: "Today you have not fasted in a way which will make your voice heard on high.... Rend your heart and not your garments, and return to the Lord your God."

We can further establish that penitence was represented even before Christ as a means and a sign of perfection and sanctity. Judith, Daniel, the prophetess Anna and many other elect souls served God day and night with fasting and prayers, and with joy and cheerfulness.

Finally, we find among the just ones of the Old Testament those who offered themselves to satisfy with their own personal penitence for the sins of the community. This is what Moses did in the 40 days when he fasted to placate the Lord for the guilt of his unfaithful people. This above all is how the character of the Servant of Jehovah is presented, "who took on our infirmities" and in whom "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

All this, however, was but a foreshadowing of things to come. Penitence—required by the inner life, confirmed by the religious experience of mankind and the object of particular precept of divine revelation-assumes "in Christ and the Church" new dimensions infinitely broader and more profound.

Christ, who always practiced in His life what He preached, before beginning His ministry spent 40 days and 40 nights in prayer and fasting, and began His public mission with the joyful message: "The kingdom of God is at hand." To this He added the command: "Repent and believe in the Gospel." These words constitute, in a way, a compendium of the whole Christian life.

The kingdom of God announced by Christ can be entered only by a "change of heart" ("metanoia") that is to say through that intimate and total change and renewal of the entire man—of all his opinions, judgments and decisions—which takes place in him in the light of the sanctity and charity of God, the sanctity and charity which were manifested to us in the Son and communicated fully.

The invitation of the Son to "metanoia" becomes all the more inescapable inasmuch as He not only preaches it but Himself offers an example. Christ, in fact, is the supreme model for those doing penance. He willed to suffer punishment for sins which were not His but those of others.

In the presence of Christ man is illumined with a new light and consequently recognizes the holiness of God and the gravity of sin. Through the word of Christ a message is transmitted to him which invites him to conversion and grants forgiveness of sins. These gifts he fully attains in baptism. This sacrament, in fact, configures him to the passion, death and resurrection of the Lord, and places the whole future of the life of the baptized under the seal of this mystery.

Therefore, following the Master, every Christian must renounce himself, take up his own cross and participate in the sufferings of Christ. Thus transformed into the image of Christ's death, he is made capable of meditating on the glory of the resurrection. Furthermore, following the Master, he can no longer live for himself, but must live for Him who loves him and gave Himself for him. He will also have to live for his brethren, completing "in his flesh that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ...for in the benefit of his body, which is the church."

In addition, since the Church is closely linked to Christ, the penitence of the individual Christian also has an intimate relationship of its own with the whole ecclesial community. In fact, not only does he receive in the bosom of the Church through baptism the fundamental gift of "metanoia," but this gift is restored and reinvigorated in those members of the Body of Christ who have fallen into sin through the sacrament of penance. "Those who approach the sacrament of penance receive from the mercy of God forgiveness for offenses committed against Him and at the same time become reconciled with the Church on which they have inflicted a wound by sinning, and the Church cooperates in their conversion with charity, example and prayer." And in the Church, finally, the little acts of penitence imposed each time in the sacrament become a form of participation in a special way in the infinite expiation of Christ to join to the sacramental satisfaction itself every other action he performs, his every suffering and sorrow.

Thus the task of bearing in his body and soul the death of the Lord affects the whole life of the baptized person at every instant and in every aspect.

Penance is biblical!

 

[amadeus]

truth is immutable
The church is ir-reformable...

So then would you not agree that when what you name as the "church" falls short of God's glory showing itself to be in need of reform, it is no longer the church? Perhaps then it never was?

 

[theefaith]

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repentance is not penance.

Repentance means to turn around. To stop living the way you were living before you knew the Lord and begin to follow him and his ways.

Definition of penance
1: an act of self-abasement, mortification (see MORTIFICATION sense 3), or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin He did charitable work as a penance.
2: a sacramental rite that is practiced in Roman, Eastern, and some Anglican churches and that consists of private confession, absolution, and a penance directed by the confessor (see CONFESSOR sense 3a)
3: something (such as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)

You can't work your way to salvation. Jesus already did it for you.
There is no penance you can perform that will justify yourself.

If you do something wrong, then you should have a conviction in your heart. And you are sorry that you messed up.
You then can ask Jesus to forgive you. Jesus is our High Priest and mediator between man and God.
And no one comes to the Father but through him.
Acts of charity should come from a willingness of heart out of love, rather than a duty to try to "make up" for ones sins.

Penance is not biblical.
You can't pray repititiously, over and over and over.. as if God didn't hear you the first time.
A prayer must come from the heart and not a "recorded" message used to replace true remorse.
You can't pay for forgiveness. One must ask and believe they receive, and go and sin no more.
You can't earn forgiveness by substituting doing something charitable in place of asking for forgiveness.
And no man can take away your sins on earth except the Lord Jesus who died and paid the penalty for them.
That's between you and the Lord alone.
Confess your sins to the Lord.

Hugs

Penance is not biblical?

lk 4:1-2

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity etc.
penance

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

 

[Ziggy]

Penance is not biblical?

lk 4:1-2

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity etc.
penance

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Are you trying to say that Jesus' temptation was his penance?
What sin did he commit?

 

[theefaith]

[QUOTE="Ziggy, post: 1262824, member:

You can't work your way to salvation. Jesus already did it for you

Is this absolute?

nothing we can do?

then all men must be saved?

 

[reformed1689]

Matt 3:2 do penance!

That is a poor translation. The proper translation is "Repent"

 

[Ziggy]

[QUOTE="Ziggy, post: 1262824, member:

You can't work your way to salvation. Jesus already did it for you

Is this absolute?

nothing we can do?

then all men must be saved?

only those that believe in God and have the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Penance!

rolleyes good grief already
have a nice day

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you trying to say that Jesus' temptation was his penance?
What sin did he commit?

ty

 

[bbyrd009]

That is a poor translation. The proper translation is "Repent"

fwiw even the term "repent" is surely bogus, as it derives from "penance." A 180 degree change of direction might be better deemd like "rebound" or something

 

[farouk]

only those that believe in God and have the faith of Jesus Christ.

@Ziggy There is indeed a big difference between Romans 2 repentance and so called penance...

 

[theefaith]

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repentance is not penance.

Repentance means to turn around. To stop living the way you were living before you knew the Lord and begin to follow him and his ways.

Definition of penance
1: an act of self-abasement, mortification (see MORTIFICATION sense 3), or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin He did charitable work as a penance.
2: a sacramental rite that is practiced in Roman, Eastern, and some Anglican churches and that consists of private confession, absolution, and a penance directed by the confessor (see CONFESSOR sense 3a)
3: something (such as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)

You can't work your way to salvation. Jesus already did it for you.
There is no penance you can perform that will justify yourself.

If you do something wrong, then you should have a conviction in your heart. And you are sorry that you messed up.
You then can ask Jesus to forgive you. Jesus is our High Priest and mediator between man and God.
And no one comes to the Father but through him.
Acts of charity should come from a willingness of heart out of love, rather than a duty to try to "make up" for ones sins.

Penance is not biblical.
You can't pray repititiously, over and over and over.. as if God didn't hear you the first time.
A prayer must come from the heart and not a "recorded" message used to replace true remorse.
You can't pay for forgiveness. One must ask and believe they receive, and go and sin no more.
You can't earn forgiveness by substituting doing something charitable in place of asking for forgiveness.
And no man can take away your sins on earth except the Lord Jesus who died and paid the penalty for them.
That's between you and the Lord alone.
Confess your sins to the Lord.

Hugs

we are speaking of those who are Christ’s thru faith and baptism in Christ and united to the communion of saints in grace

yes you can pray a single pray many times, Christ prayed three times “let this cup pass from me”

repeating yourself within a single prayer is forbidden not repeating prayers many times

 

[theefaith]

So then would you not agree that when what you name as the "church" falls short of God's glory showing itself to be in need of reform, it is no longer the church? Perhaps then it never was?

No

 

[theefaith]

Are you trying to say that Jesus' temptation was his penance?
What sin did he commit?

Temptation is not sin, only an invitation to sin!

you know he was without sin!

my point is He fasted and prayed 40 days and the servant is not greater than the master and he is our model in everything

he did penance we go penance!

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: