What Christ's Olivet Discourse Actually... Teaches, And To Whom
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My study points on Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21:
1. Jesus' disciples looked over at the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem, marveling at them, and Jesus said the day would come when not one stone would be atop another there, that was not... about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D.
a. The reason is because still today, with the Western Wall, and the Dome of The Rock Islamic shrine upon today's temple mount, are still standing stones atop one another that have not been destroyed, yet. They will be brought down though, on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns in our near future.
b. The destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple by the Roman army in 70 A.D. only serves as a type of 'blueprint' for the coming final... destruction on the day of the Lord when Jesus returns in our near future.
2. When Jesus' disciples asked Him in Matt.24:3, "...when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?", they were asking Him about the SIGNS of the very END of this world leading up to Jesus' future return.
a. "... when shall these things be?" -- Jesus answers that when pointing to the "parable of the fig tree" at Matt.24:32-35, which is about the FINAL Generation at the END of this world that will SEE Jesus' future return. So His answer about the 'when' is the very last generation of this present world time.
b. "... and what shall be the sign of Thy coming" -- Jesus gave 7 main SIGNS leading up to the day of His future coming on the last day of this world. His final 7th SIGN He gave is about the day of His future coming and gathering of His Church. He refers to those seven SIGNS of the END as "these things" in His parable of the fig tree.
c. "... and of the end of the world?" -- in Matt.24:35 Jesus mentions heaven and earth passing away when the final generation sees "all these things" having been fulfilled. Once again, what's the last SIGN Jesus gave? The SIGN of His future coming and gathering of His Church, per Matthew 24:29-31. That is what ends this present 2nd world earth age.
1. Jesus' disciples looked over at the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem, marveling at them, and Jesus said the day would come when not one stone would be atop another there, that was not... about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D.
a. The reason is because still today, with the Western Wall, and the Dome of The Rock Islamic shrine upon today's temple mount, are still standing stones atop one another that have not been destroyed, yet. They will be brought down though, on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns in our near future.
b. The destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple by the Roman army in 70 A.D. only serves as a type of 'blueprint' for the coming final... destruction on the day of the Lord when Jesus returns in our near future.
2. When Jesus' disciples asked Him in Matt.24:3, "...when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?", they were asking Him about the SIGNS of the very END of this world leading up to Jesus' future return.
a. "... when shall these things be?" -- Jesus answers that when pointing to the "parable of the fig tree" at Matt.24:32-35, which is about the FINAL Generation at the END of this world that will SEE Jesus' future return. So His answer about the 'when' is the very last generation of this present world time.
b. "... and what shall be the sign of Thy coming" -- Jesus gave 7 main SIGNS leading up to the day of His future coming on the last day of this world. His final 7th SIGN He gave is about the day of His future coming and gathering of His Church. He refers to those seven SIGNS of the END as "these things" in His parable of the fig tree.
c. "... and of the end of the world?" -- in Matt.24:35 Jesus mentions heaven and earth passing away when the final generation sees "all these things" having been fulfilled. Once again, what's the last SIGN Jesus gave? The SIGN of His future coming and gathering of His Church, per Matthew 24:29-31. That is what ends this present 2nd world earth age.
Part was fulfilled in the lives of the disciples and 70 Ad
Part is ling term, as the gospel spread to the nations.
Part is end times, the great tribulation, and Jesus's second coming.
The pole does not offer that three part structure as a choice. Note near term Israel is in occupancy (by the Roman Empire) ; long term Israel is in exile as the gospel is spread to the nations ; end times, Israel is back in the land, a sovereign nation.
Your belief is not a standard in any Church system. I only listed the most popular interpretations, along with the correct one. The correct choice has NO ADDITIONS by men's doctrines, but instead is backed up by many Scripture witnesses. Yours has many additions that cannot be backed up with Scripture.
Looking at your chart...
Matt.24:4-13 is about the "beginning of sorrows" timing, just prior to the "great tribulation".
Mark 13:5-9 is likewise about the "beginning of sorrows" timing just prior to the "great tribulation".
Luke 21:8-23 is "beginning of sorrows" and... into the start of the "great tribulation".
ALL... of the above Scripture examples are about the very END of this world, and NOT about 70 A.D. when the 2nd temple was destroyed by the Roman army.
The SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are the SEALS of the Revelation 6. And that means for the END of this world in the FINAL GENERATION.
Today, right now, we are in the "beginning of sorrows" timing.
Truth7t7
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I agree, reformed preterist eschatology is found in 70AD fulfillment of the Olivet discourse
The beginning of sorrows was back in the days of the disciples leading up to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. And the Jews taken captive int0 the nations.
The great tribulation is end times, right before Jesus returns.
Are you referring to the cult of Jesuit futurism?
And the word is "poll".
Because canines tend to disrespect a "pole".
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jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
I voted partial for the following highlighted reasons...,
24 Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple. 2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”
3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”
4 Jesus answered, “Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error]. 5 For many will come in My name [misusing it, and appropriating the strength of the name which belongs to Me], saying, ‘I am the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed),’ and they will mislead many. 6 You will continually hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end [of the age].
The disciples asked Jesus,
When will the destruction of the temple happen
and
What will be the sign of your coming and the end.
The temple was destroyed in 70 Ad, but that was not the end.
So clearly part of what Jesus said happened in 70 AD.
The end of the age comes at a later date at his second coming.
That event is like the days of Noah, that came upon all the ungodly wherever they may dwell on the earth.
LK21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”
24 Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple. 2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”
3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”
4 Jesus answered, “Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error]. 5 For many will come in My name [misusing it, and appropriating the strength of the name which belongs to Me], saying, ‘I am the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed),’ and they will mislead many. 6 You will continually hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end [of the age].
The disciples asked Jesus,
When will the destruction of the temple happen
and
What will be the sign of your coming and the end.
The temple was destroyed in 70 Ad, but that was not the end.
So clearly part of what Jesus said happened in 70 AD.
The end of the age comes at a later date at his second coming.
That event is like the days of Noah, that came upon all the ungodly wherever they may dwell on the earth.
LK21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”
What you are attempting to ADD to the Scripture is impossible. That because at Matthew 24:32-35 with the parable of the fig tree which Jesus gave, He showed the generation that SEES "all these things" (i.e., all those SIGNS He gave) will be the FINAL GENERATION on earth.
And what... was the final SIGN Lord Jesus gave there in Matthew 24? The SIGN of His future return and gathering of His Church.
So then, are you gonna' try... and tell me His Apostles at His 1st coming SAW that? Yet that is exactly what the doctrine of men you are pushing is doing, adding an impossibility to the Scripture that OPPOSES what Jesus taught there in Matthew 24.
You run into the same problem that Douggg said, which is actually adding... to what Jesus said which counters the following underlined passages...
Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV
Jesus showed above that the FINAL GENERATION on earth will SEE ALL THOSE SIGNS He gave.
So HOW... can any other generation see ALL those SIGNS unless they ALL are to happen in the LAST GENERATION?
This is just common sense from what Jesus said above, so you guys simply are not thinking for yourselves, but you are just following what men's pop doctrines say.
Yeah, I corrected the spelling on 'pole'.Are you referring to the cult of Jesuit futurism?
And the word is "poll".
Because canines tend to disrespect a "pole".
One of the choices is about man's false doctrine of Futurism (which includes a false Pre-trib Rapture, which is not written in God's Word).
Another choice is what Preterists and Historicists doctrines of men teach.
And another is based on the false doctrine of Full Preterists.
That poll pretty much covers the main seminary doctrines of men.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I do not belong to any particular church system and I still disagree with you. So, that claim is completely false. To suggest that everyone who disagrees with you only believes what they do because of what they've been taught is a major insult to those of us who study scripture for ourselves like the Bereans did (Acts 17:10-11).
You ridiculously think that, right before giving His Olivet Discourse, Jesus told the disciples that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed, yet you somehow think neither of the questions they asked right after that had anything to do with the temple buildings being destroyed. Talk about a view based on men's doctrines. It's a view that defies all logic. Any objective person would acknowledge that at least part of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse related to the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What were "these things" (these signs) that Jesus was talking about, though? Literally everything He had previously mentioned? No. That is where you are mistaken. We can look at the parallel account in Luke 21 to see what "these things" (signs) are.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
So, "these things" (these signs) that have to be fulfilled first before "this generation" passes do not include everything Jesus previously talked about, but rather specifically referred to the "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations...which are coming on the earth". So, there is no basis for thinking He was saying that everything He talked about had to occur within the same chronological generation.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You acted as if anyone who disagrees with you must believe what their church system taught them. Yet, in Doug's case and my case (and others here), that is not true. We instead believe what we do based on our own studies. I may disagree with everything Doug believes about end times doctrine, but I would not accuse him of just believing what he does because that's what his church system taught him. So, you should delete that false and misleading comment.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Well said, Jeff. How anyone can claim that the Olivet Discourse has nothing at all to do with the destruction of the temple buildings in 70 AD is beyond me. Jesus clearly told the disciples that those temple buildings would be destroyed right before His Olivet Discourse. Which would've been a very shocking thing for His disciples to hear. But, we're expected to believe they didn't ask any questions about it? Unbelievable.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Took the words right out of my mouth. Most of the eschatology I heard in Church I couldn't agree with because of the many Scriptures I read.
I agree.
Jesus said, after the temple is destroyed the end would not come immediately.
He also said Jews would then go into exile to the nations, which happened also.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).
When did the Gentiles stop trampling Jerusalem while the Jews were in exile?
It truly is all future and there is compelling evidence from Jesus's words to that effect. He told us how we would "know" that "that day", "his coming", ala the greatest trouble the world has ever "known". It is revealed by the words commonly [tho not interchangeably] translated as "to know".
Mat 24:33-39 KJV 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, KNOW that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour KNOWETH no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And KNEW not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The [capitalized] words in this text ('see' & 'knoweth') is the Greek word eido, G1492. And the [capitalized] words in the text ('know' & 'knew') is the Greek word ginosko, G1097. Eido, often translated as the word 'see', means to know by experiencing with the senses [seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching]. Ginosko, means to know by understanding with the mind. There is one particular passage of scripture that contextually illustrates the different uses of the word "know".
Heb 8:8-11 KJV 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, KNOW the Lord: for all shall KNOW me, from the least to the greatest.
In this passage, we see the distinction of how the old covenant of the law works, versus how the new covenant of grace works. Under the law, the laws of God were to be taught to their children, from generation to generation. The children of Israel were to teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying KNOW (ginosko) the Lord. Under the new covenant of grace, the laws of God are implanted onto our hearts, via the receiving of the holy spirit of God into our hearts, when anyone believes the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. God "writes' the witness of the life of Christ on to our hearts. Salvation comes by experiencing the Lord Jesus, i.e., by "knowing" Jesus experientially.
Summing things up we have that to "know/ ginosko" the Lord, means to have been taught his ways by the law written on tables of stone, to know with an understanding of the mind. And to "know/eido" the Lord is to experience his presence with our hearts, i.e., to know by experiencing with the senses. So now let's apply this to our original text of Matt.24.
Mat 24:33-39 KJV 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall [experience with your senses] all these things, [understand with your mind] that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour [experientially knows (with his senses) ] no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And [did not understand with the mind] until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
You can only experience with the senses, 'eido', if you are personally present to experience them. The understanding of the timing of that day, ginosko, can only come when THIS GENERATION experiences personally, ALL THESE THINGS. LIKEWISE, if we don't pay attention to when these things are fulfilled (upon this generation) you will not understand with your mind, aka KNOW, when the coming of Jesus is truly near... when all these things come upon this generation. This entails every sign that Jesus spoke of, in the Olivet Discourse.
Why did he tell us these things? So we wouldn't be deceived into thinking that his coming is near, when it isn't.
Luk 21:28-32 KJV 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see [EXPERIENCE WITH THE SENSES] these things come to pass, know [UNDERSTAND WITH YOUR MIND] ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
When does the kingdom of God come? At the 7th trumpet!
Be Blessed
The PuP
What recognized exegetes from 17 centuries of the historical true Christian Church prior to the 19th century believed that "It truly is all future"?
Names, dates, and verbatim quotes, please.
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It sounds to me like you would rather put your trust in the doctrine of men rather than the Bible itself. I pray this is not true. I gave you the words of Matthew and Hebrews in explaining how the word "know" is used. That's good enough for me.
Be Blessed
The PuP
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