Were We Alive In Heaven Before We Were Born?

[Ziggy]

Who are the ten thousands of saints?

Deu 33:2
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Jde 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Are saints angels?

Deu 33:3
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

I think the problem is when we try to put a preexistence on our identity as something seperate from God.

God is life. Our life comes from God. The individual person isn't formed until one is born into the world.
But life itself always originates from God and returns to God.
Jesus is the very life of God who came and dwelt among man in the flesh.
He knew where he came from and where he was going, because he is the author of life itself.
I don't believe we have this knowledge in ourselves but that we must learn it.
We don't have self awareness of ourselves before we are born because there is no self, there is only God and the life he gives to us.

I don't believe we will have self awareness after we die. I believe the life that is in us will return to the life that gave it.
Thus I don't believe in praying to the dead, because their individualism no longer exists, only the life God gave them which returns to God himself.

How do you hear this?

2Co 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Hugs

 

[Scott Downey]

Forgive me Brother, I know you are trying hard but that doesnt convincingly prove your implied point to me.

Before there was any of our days, they were fashioned for us and put into a book, right?

Now think about who we are and what we are doing here.

Are we Humans on a spiritual journey?

The answer is no.

We are spirit beings that are on a Human journey. That suggests maybe I even got to read the book before I signed up? I read the script! I want to be that guy!

Uh-Oh! I hear you already! Woe is this life! Me too, Brother, me too. WHo in thier right mind would sign up for this earthen valley of death?

But waitaminute...If I read the book first, then it also prolly had in it, the rewards upon graduation in Heaven for this class/life. Does that make sense? I think it does. It is Written, man can not comprehend or even imagine the goodness and rewards that God has in store for us in Heaven! Right? And of course we know tht God is a just God. No one gets beat on more than others in this life. I tink "Karma" is a fancy term for just and fair God! So I expect that some people who lead tragically short lives get an uncomprehensible reward for that task.

It spells it al out in the parable of the Rich ruler & Lazarus. The Rich guy had an easy life and didnt do nothing with it. Prolly chased women? He had a chance to do more good than he did. I think God wants people to have the same measure of good & suffering in the long run. Lazarus had a horrible life. He was the beggar by the city gates. Some days he didnt eat. He suffered through his life more than the rich guy did his life. And we know where it got them both! Now Lazarus had much comfort and was talking it easy. So it would seem that we can suffer here, or we can suffer there is what it sounds like.

So the whole point is, we might have had prior knowledge before we were born of the womb also. (But He gave us Amnesia as we were born) so we can't remember. But it gives a possible answer to why someone would want to come here and live on this planet of evil? We agreed before we got Amnesia. We considered the reward into our decision to sign up for "me" and agreed to it. Now I forget what the reward was. So it would seem stupid to say I asked for this! Simple enough. It all fits. So we get a memory restoration when we go to be with the Lord.

We got born into a war, behind enemy lines. It was a hard landing and I bumped my head. I cant even remember my name. All I have in pack is a Field Manual (bible) and a Radio (prayer). Later I learned that I have an invisible guide (Holy Spirit).

How many people have discovered what their mission is? (It's right in the Field Manual!)

yeah, it's not I am saying we had living days before God gave us an infants body.
Just that God foreknew us before God made us.
And all our days God had written down before they happened before time began.
And we experience those days in our own time.

2 Timothy 1, 'given to us' as in those called to be His, before time began.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[Scott Downey]

SDA believers say that Jesus pre-existed his earthly life that began some 2000 years ago, as Michael — the Angel.

I knew one of the sects did. Awful unscriptural doctrines they have.

You find they oppose scripture in heavily detailed ways from what it plainly states. Here in Hebrews 1 clearly angels are not the Son.
If scripture seems written to counter false doctrine, well the Spirit of God wrote the books using men of God chosen for that purpose, one among a whole list of reasons why God gave us the scriptures is for reproof.

The Son Exalted Above Angels​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

 

[Scott Downey]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[The Learner]

I understand that God is omnipresent, which is everywhere at once AND at every time!

But I can't see the truth in the statement: I didnt ask to be born here!
Now I'm no Abraham or Paul, but I know the Lord well enough to know that His Character would not let Him force us to be born here.

We all know very well that the Lord does not force Himself uopn anyone. We have free will to choose. So if we have free will now, why would He force us into being born here against our will?!
He would not, it's as simple as that. The Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He never changes His character.

We do not have a choice of where and to whom we are born.

Jeremiah 18

Easy-to-Read Version

​

The Potter and the Clay​

18 This is the message that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Jeremiah, go down to the potter’s house. I will give you my message there.”
3 So I went down to the potter’s house and saw him working with clay at the wheel. 4 He was making a pot from clay. But there was something wrong with the pot. So the potter used that clay to make another pot. With his hands he shaped the pot the way he wanted it to be.
5 Then this message from the Lord came to me: 6 “Family of Israel, you know that I can do the same thing with you. You are like the clay in the potter’s hands, and I am the potter.” This message is from the Lord.

Romans 9:19-26

Easy-to-Read Version

​

19 So one of you will ask me, “If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?” 20 Don’t ask that. You are only human and have no right to question God. A clay jar does not question the one who made it. It does not say, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 The one who makes the jar can make anything he wants. He uses the same clay to make different things. He might make one thing for special purposes and another for daily use.
22 It is the same way with what God has done. He wanted to show his anger and to let people see his power. But he patiently endured those he was angry with—people who were ready to be destroyed. 23 He waited with patience so that he could make known the riches of his glory to the people he has chosen to receive his mercy. God has already prepared them to share his glory. 24 We are those people, the ones God chose not only from the Jews but also from those who are not Jews. 25 As the Scriptures say in the book of Hosea,
“The people who are not mine—
I will say they are my people.
And the people I did not love—
I will say they are the people I love.”
26 And,
“Where God said in the past,
‘You are not my people’—
there they will be called children of the living God.”

 

[The Learner]

John 9

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind​

9 While Jesus was walking, he saw a man who had been blind since the time he was born. 2 Jesus’ followers asked him, “Teacher, why was this man born blind? Whose sin made it happen? Was it his own sin or that of his parents?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not any sin of this man or his parents that caused him to be blind. He was born blind so that he could be used to show what great things God can do. 4 While it is daytime, we must continue doing the work of the one who sent me. The night is coming, and no one can work at night. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 After Jesus said this, he spit on the dirt, made some mud and put it on the man’s eyes. 7 Jesus told him, “Go and wash in Siloam pool.” (Siloam means “Sent.”) So the man went to the pool, washed and came back. He was now able to see.
8 His neighbors and some others who had seen him begging said, “Look! Is this the same man who always sits and begs?”
9 Some people said, “Yes! He is the one.” But others said, “No, he can’t be the same man.

 

[The Learner]

Romans 9:9-12

Easy-to-Read Version

​

9 Here is what God said in that promise: “About this time next year I will come back, and Sarah will have a son.”[a]
10 And that is not all. Rebecca also had sons, and they had the same father. He is our father Isaac. 11-12 But before the two sons were born, God told Rebecca, “The older son will serve the younger.”[b] This was before the boys had done anything good or bad. God said this before they were born so that the boy he wanted would be chosen because of God’s own plan. He was chosen because he was the one God wanted to call, not because of anything the boys did.
Read full chapter

 

[The Learner]

"Jeremiah 1:5, which says, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” This verse emphasizes God’s foreknowledge (“I knew thee”), not humanity’s previous knowledge of God."

D.A. Carson writes,

The words of Jeremiah 1:5 could just about be taken that way if there were contextual reasons for thinking that is what they mean, but such reasons are completely lacking. What the Mormons are really doing is appealing to their book Pearl of Great Price for the content of their doctrine, and appealing to the Bible at a verbally ambiguous point and overspecifying what the text says in order to claim the Bible’s authority. (Exegetical Fallacies, 115)

Jeremiah 1:5: Does this verse speak about preexistence? – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

 

[The Learner]

Job 38

Easy-to-Read Version

​

God Speaks to Job​

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job from a whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this ignorant person
saying these foolish things?[a]
3 Prepare yourself for an attack!
Get ready to answer the questions I will ask you.
4 “Where were you when I made the earth?
If you are so smart, answer me.
5 And who decided how big the earth should be?
Who measured it with a measuring line?
6 What is the earth resting on?
Who put the first stone in its place
7 when the morning stars sang together
and the angels[b] shouted with joy?
8 “Who closed the flood gates
as the sea gushed from the womb?
9 Who covered it with clouds
and wrapped it in darkness?
10 I set the limits for the sea
and put it behind locked gates.
11 I said to the sea, ‘You can come this far, but no farther.
This is where your proud waves will stop.’
12 “Did you ever in your life command the morning to begin
or the day to dawn?
13 Did you ever tell the morning light to grab the earth
and shake those who are evil out of their hiding places?
14 The morning light makes the hills
and valleys easy to see.
When the daylight comes to the earth,
the shapes of these places stand out like the folds of a coat.
They take shape like soft clay
that is pressed with a stamp.
15 Evil people don’t like the daylight.
When it shines bright, it keeps them from doing the bad things they do.
16 “Have you ever gone to the deepest parts of the sea?
Have you ever walked on the ocean bottom?
17 Has anyone shown you the gates to the world of the dead?
Have you ever seen those gates that lead to the dark place of death?
18 Do you really understand how big the earth is?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “Where does light come from?
Where does darkness come from?
20 Can you take them back to where they belong?
Do you know how to get there?
21 Surely you know these things, since you are so old and wise.
You were alive when I made them, weren’t you?[c]
22 “Have you ever gone into the storerooms
where I keep the snow and the hail?
23 I save them there for times of trouble,
for the times of war and battle.
24 Have you ever gone to the place where the sun comes up,
where it makes the east wind blow all over the earth?[d]
25 Who dug ditches in the sky for the heavy rain?
Who made a path for the thunderstorm?
26 Who makes it rain even in desert places
where no one lives?
27 The rain gives that dry empty land all the water it needs,
and grass begins to grow.
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who produces the drops of dew?
29 Does ice have a mother?
Who gives birth to the frost?
30 That’s when the water freezes as hard as a rock.
Even the deep sea freezes over!
31 “Can you tie up the Pleiades[e]?
Can you unfasten the belt of Orion[f]?
32 Can you bring out the other constellations[g] at the right times?
Can you lead out the Bear[h] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws that control the sky?
Can you put each star in its place above the earth?[i]
34 “Can you shout at the clouds
and command them to cover you with rain?
35 Can you give a command to the lightning?
Will it come to you and say, ‘Here we are; what do you want, sir?’
Will it go wherever you want it to go?
36 “Who makes people wise?
Who puts wisdom deep inside them?
37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds
and tip them over to pour out their rain?
38 The rain makes the dust become mud,
and the clumps of dirt stick together.
39 “Do you find food for the lions?
Do you feed their hungry babies?
40 No, they hide in their caves
or wait in the grass, ready to attack their prey.
41 Who feeds the ravens when their babies cry out to God
and wander around without food?

Footnotes​

The clear answer where where you when is God and you were not alive yet.

 

[The Learner]

Is the Mormon Doctrine of Preexistence True? - Mormonism Research Ministry

Note: This article has been taken from chapter 4 ("Preexistence and the Second Estate") in the book Mormonism 101: Examining the Religion of the

www.mrm.org

Spirit is the life force God gave us, Gen 2:7

 

[The Learner]

hey how come I can't give myself a rating?

 

[MA2444]

You're making assumptions that are not in scripture and those assumptions create even more questions, which leads to more and more assumptions ...and false doctrines, and false religions.

Where in scripture do you see a human (man or woman) say "before Abraham was, I Am" ...or "before the foundations of the world, I did (this or that)"? Only Jesus Christ can say that because HE is God .....and we are not.

False religion? Have I spoken a different Gospel? Do I denounce Jesus because He knew us before we was in the womb? Not in the least!

Did I say that we are God? Did I say that we were there in the beginning of the beginning with Jesus? No I did not. I did say that at some point before we were put into the womb, he created us or caused us to come forth and be there. Look again and you can see that I did say that.

So are you knee jerking to strange new thoughts?

 

[MA2444]

So Adam and Eve chose to come here and fall before they were born. And (supposedly) a spirit dwelling in pureness and perfection chose to be born and live a life as a child rapist, a satanist, a murderer ...or to be at the other end of that ...the victim of such things.

I dont know about Adam & Eve. Maybe you have me confused with someone who does have all the answers? Because I dont.

People did not choose to be born a child rapist or a satanist. That's a ridiculous assumption. Scripture says, Behold I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live. We had one rule! Dont eat from the poison tree.

So the child rapists and killers and evil people made bad choices which altered their life due to the sin seperating us from the Lord. The Lord did not destine anyone to be evil.

 

[MA2444]

Nope!!.Far from it!!!SDA here! Not a Mormon or I would agree with you. I don't know what the sandwich thing is with you. I am not your servant. all I am saying is that this belief agrees with mormon beliefs--it is not a cut. If I believed a certain way, and someone told me they knew of a church that believed that way, and told me, I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. Somebody else told ya that was a Mormon belief on this thread too--did you ask them for sandwiches? Hecks no.

But you are a girl, arent you? Surely you can make sandwiches? I never heard of a girl who couldnt make sandwiches.
I'm sorry I dont mean to offend you but from where I come from that's good boy/girl humor. I'm just trying to keep it light. I thought you'd roll with it and tell me to make my own sandwich! LOL! (Like I havent heard that before.) Eh, it would be better than arguing.

And I thought, to call me a morman was weird. I aint no morman. So to me...I bet this girl can make a better sandwich than she can a theological argument to me. And I bet it's true.
but you have me confused with mormans because I sound like them?

I didnt confuse you with the girl who killed all her kids by driving them into a lake just because you gave the same sharp mommy answer to your kids as she did to her kids before she killed them. I give you more credit than that! You should too!

 

[TLHKAJ]

False religion? Have I spoken a different Gospel? Do I denounce Jesus because He knew us before we was in the womb? Not in the least!

Did I say that we are God? Did I say that we were there in the beginning of the beginning with Jesus? No I did not. I did say that at some point before we were put into the womb, he created us or caused us to come forth and be there. Look again and you can see that I did say that.

So are you knee jerking to strange new thoughts?

Your assumptions, which are not scripturally proven, lead in a dangerous direction. If we were with God before birth, where is our beginning?

 

[Scott Downey]

I dont know about Adam & Eve. Maybe you have me confused with someone who does have all the answers? Because I dont.

People did not choose to be a child rapist or a satanist. That's a ridiculous assumption. Scripture says, Behold I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live. We had one rule! Dont eat from the poison tree.

So the child rapists and killers and evil people made bad choices which altered their life due to the sin seperating us from the Lord. The Lord did not destine anyone to be evil.

Correct, God did not destine anyone to be wicked, people just are naturally wicked as they follow the devil and fulfil the lusts of the flesh.
That is why Christ says you must be born again, as the old you is corrupt and hellbound simply by your old man nature. You must become a new creation in Christ to be saved, transformed and be made as having a living spirit to God.

No one is born saved. (excepting Christ)

You know God indwells as in lives inside people that are saved, they are the temple of God.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[MA2444]

Think about that. Follow it out. Do you believe that God was created?
Or... if our spirit was with God before conception, are we God like Jesus? (Jn chapter 1 says Jesus was with God as the Word, and the Word was God.)

According to your assumptions, we would have been with God before the earth was created ...and we were always here ....so we were not created at all ....we are God like Jesus.

That's a rich list of knee jerk assumptions.
God was not Created. You said that.
We arent God. Only God is GOD.
Angels arent God.
No one said Amgels are God. No one said, man is God.


So we couldt have come forth from God? Is that what you're saying? You seem to have that twisted a wee bit.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Job 38​

​

Easy-to-Read Version​

​

​

God Speaks to Job​

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job from a whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this ignorant person
saying these foolish things?[a]
3 Prepare yourself for an attack!
Get ready to answer the questions I will ask you.
4 “Where were you when I made the earth?
If you are so smart, answer me.
5 And who decided how big the earth should be?
Who measured it with a measuring line?
6 What is the earth resting on?
Who put the first stone in its place
7 when the morning stars sang together
and the angels[b] shouted with joy?
8 “Who closed the flood gates
as the sea gushed from the womb?
9 Who covered it with clouds
and wrapped it in darkness?
10 I set the limits for the sea
and put it behind locked gates.
11 I said to the sea, ‘You can come this far, but no farther.
This is where your proud waves will stop.’
12 “Did you ever in your life command the morning to begin
or the day to dawn?
13 Did you ever tell the morning light to grab the earth
and shake those who are evil out of their hiding places?
14 The morning light makes the hills
and valleys easy to see.
When the daylight comes to the earth,
the shapes of these places stand out like the folds of a coat.
They take shape like soft clay
that is pressed with a stamp.
15 Evil people don’t like the daylight.
When it shines bright, it keeps them from doing the bad things they do.
16 “Have you ever gone to the deepest parts of the sea?
Have you ever walked on the ocean bottom?
17 Has anyone shown you the gates to the world of the dead?
Have you ever seen those gates that lead to the dark place of death?
18 Do you really understand how big the earth is?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “Where does light come from?
Where does darkness come from?
20 Can you take them back to where they belong?
Do you know how to get there?
21 Surely you know these things, since you are so old and wise.
You were alive when I made them, weren’t you?[c]
22 “Have you ever gone into the storerooms
where I keep the snow and the hail?
23 I save them there for times of trouble,
for the times of war and battle.
24 Have you ever gone to the place where the sun comes up,
where it makes the east wind blow all over the earth?[d]
25 Who dug ditches in the sky for the heavy rain?
Who made a path for the thunderstorm?
26 Who makes it rain even in desert places
where no one lives?
27 The rain gives that dry empty land all the water it needs,
and grass begins to grow.
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who produces the drops of dew?
29 Does ice have a mother?
Who gives birth to the frost?
30 That’s when the water freezes as hard as a rock.
Even the deep sea freezes over!
31 “Can you tie up the Pleiades[e]?
Can you unfasten the belt of Orion[f]?
32 Can you bring out the other constellations[g] at the right times?
Can you lead out the Bear[h] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws that control the sky?
Can you put each star in its place above the earth?[i]
34 “Can you shout at the clouds
and command them to cover you with rain?
35 Can you give a command to the lightning?
Will it come to you and say, ‘Here we are; what do you want, sir?’
Will it go wherever you want it to go?
36 “Who makes people wise?
Who puts wisdom deep inside them?
37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds
and tip them over to pour out their rain?
38 The rain makes the dust become mud,
and the clumps of dirt stick together.
39 “Do you find food for the lions?
Do you feed their hungry babies?
40 No, they hide in their caves
or wait in the grass, ready to attack their prey.
41 Who feeds the ravens when their babies cry out to God
and wander around without food?

Footnotes​

The clear answer where where you when is God and you were not alive yet.

 

[MA2444]

Your assumptions, which are not scripturally proven, lead in a dangerous direction. If we were with God before birth, where is our beginning?

How do I know how long I existed with God beofre choosing and being born into a Human body? We could have been there for 1000's of years or for 1/2 hour. WHo knows?

What dangerous direction am I leading? Please be specific.

I was born with Amnesia so I can't remember how long I existed before coming to earth.
Sometimes I think I am so dumb that I must not have been very old yet, lol! But I don't know because the evil and corruption of this world was programmed into me as a child and made me forget God.

It takes 50 years on this planet to even get a clue about what is really going on.

 

[TLHKAJ]

That's a rich list of knee jerk assumptions.
God was not Created. You said that.
We arent God. Only God is GOD.
Angels arent God.
No one said Amgels are God. No one said, man is God.


So we couldt have come forth from God? Is that what you're saying? You seem to have that twisted a wee bit.

I said, our neshamah (life, breath) was breathed into our bodies by God. And yes, He created mankind ....He formed us in the womb. That's a far far cry from saying we (our consciousness) was in with God before conception. In Genesis 2:7, it says that after God formed man from the dust of the earth (a body), He then breathed His neshamah (breath, life) into that body of dust and at that instant, man (the body) became a living soul. The living soul is the product of God's neshamah uniting with the body. That's what scripture says. To assume more is to stray from sound doctrine.