Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

[VictoryinJesus]

Acquired rather than intended?

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

Luke 2:34-35
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (bringing down) and rising again(raising up again) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

For a sign which shall be spoken against?

Matthew 1:23 NET
“Look! The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will name him[a] Emmanuel,”[b] which means[c] “God with us.”[d]

--- COMPARE ---

Isaiah 7:14; 8:8, 10 NET
14 For this reason the Lord himself will give you a confirming sign.[a]
Look, this[b] young woman[c] is about to conceive[d] and will give birth to a son.
You, young woman, will name him[e] Immanuel.[f] ...
8 It will spill into Judah, flooding and engulfing, as it reaches to the necks of its victims.
He will spread his wings out over your entire land,[a] O Immanuel.”[b] ...
10 Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted.
Issue your orders, but they will not be executed![a]
For God is with us![b]

For this reason God will give you a confining sign? Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

1 Peter 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are you; for the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Again, that is where I get confused by your question Of whether the messianic prophecies were acquired or intended. Do you have an intent and by that I mean are you looking for a specific answer you believe is the right answer?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I mean they quoted something in the moment from the OT that was not intended by the original author to be prophetic.

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Can you give an example of something quoted in the moment from the OT that was not intended by the original author to be prophetic?

 

[St. SteVen]

Can you give an example of something quoted in the moment from the OT that was not intended by the original author to be prophetic?

That's what the previous topic was about. Examples given.

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

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[Wick Stick]

Can you give an example of something quoted in the moment from the OT that was not intended by the original author to be prophetic?

There's a lot of them. Here's one:

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea:

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus.

 

[Lambano]

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus.

There's a sense that Jesus IS Israel personified (and this verse helps establish that sense of God's people personified in Jesus, which has soteriological implications) - but I really don't want to encourage Matthew's spurious hermeneutics.

 

[Wick Stick]

There's a sense that Jesus IS Israel personified (and this verse helps establish that sense of God's people personified in Jesus, which has soteriological implications) - but I really don't want to encourage Matthew's spurious hermeneutics.

Yeah, that guy is - what's the word the kids use now? He's SUS. You should see the genealogy he did.

 

[Bladerunner]

New topic:

Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts) https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/were-messianic-prophecies-acquired-rather-than-intended-in-the-original-texts.67180/ In the previous topic it was somewhat...

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without the fulfillment of the prophecies from the OT, I would have a very hard time believing that Jesus Christ was who He says He is. Rem, there were 108 prophecies fulfilled from the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey until His ascension.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus.

Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

To clarify Why I posted the above. Moses also fits one called out of Egypt…but still doesn’t it all point to Christ(meaning it’a prophetic?) Strange and contradictory that while speaking of something that has already been, as you pointed out it was about Israel …you hear often today people referring to their being those called out?

 

[Wick Stick]

Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Strange and contradictory that while speaking of something that has already been…you hear often today people referring to their being those called out?

I have absolutely no idea what that had to do with anything here. A complete non-sequitur to me.

 

[St. SteVen]

without the fulfillment of the prophecies from the OT, I would have a very hard time believing that Jesus Christ was who He says He is. Rem, there were 108 prophecies fulfilled from the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey until His ascension.

Fortunately we have plenty of other evidence that Jesus is who he said he was.
(although there are question about WHAT he actually said to convey that)

However, when we give these supposed prophecies a hard look, they are not holding up very well.

If Jesus is real in your life, THAT is the best evidence. IMHO

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[St. SteVen]

…you hear often today people referring to their being those called out?

That definitely happens. (now and then)
Here's my favorite.

Hebrews 11:8 NIV
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,
obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

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[VictoryinJesus]

I have absolutely no idea what that had to do with anything here. A complete non-sequitur to me.

I went back to clarify. I’m not following the argument very well. Mostly because I don’t get the value of trying to prove New Testament quotes referring to the Old Testament were never intended to be messianic prophecy. I mean am I misunderstanding the purpose? Are there not worse things than New Testament writers misusing an Old Testament passage as messianic prophecy when it was never intended to be pointing to the coming Messiah? Have I misunderstood?

you said

There's a lot of them. Here's one:

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea:

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus. that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

You made the observation that Hosea is a prophet talking about Israel, not Jesus. Unless I misunderstand you are saying Matthew misused Hosea as a messianic prophecy, when it was speaking of Israel and not Jesus as: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son.”

The reason I brought up Moses is because New Testament also speaks of by Faith Moses left Egypt preferring instead to suffer with the people of God then to enjoy the pleasure of sin for a season. And how Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. You said it has nothing to do with it. I don’t agree because leaving Egypt there to me is directly connected to esteeming bearing the reproach of Christ greater riches, by leaving Egypt and the enjoying of the pleasure of sins for a season. Why was Israel called out of Egypt? Do we reduce it to something other than messianic prophecy of being called out of the pleasure of sins for a season, esteeming Christ greater riches? Isn’t this the same that Israel was being shown in being called out of Egypt, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son.” Out of the lust and pleasure of sins for a season have I called my son?

It is still something that happened that points to a messianic fulfillment (Imo). Paul spoke of going without the gate to bear the reproach of Christ. Saying “let us go forth to meet Him” knowing we have no continuing city here. Moses saw this a far off, preferring to wait on Christ. Same as we say we esteem Christ greater riches than the treasures of (Spiritual?)Egypt. Israel called out of Egypt …A whole lot could be said about “Israel” and why Matthew quoted that passage connecting it to Jesus.

Personally I think you are doubting the wrong one in thinking Matthew misapplied “Out of Egypt have I called my son.” Forgetting, Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. <not to debate that verse but only bringing up another way to see Egypt.

Again, Maybe I have misunderstood the intent. But in considering whether Wick Stick is correct and Matthew quoted a passage that was never intended to be messianic, although Matthew tried to connect it to Jesus when it wasn’t about Jesus.
Or whether Matthew appropriately applies the Old Testament passage connecting it to fulfilled in Jesus Christ …sorry but I’d go with Matthew applied it correctly.

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthew tried to connect it to Jesus when it wasn’t about Jesus.

BINGO!
That's the problem.
If the OT quote is not connected to the NT event, then it was acquired out-of-context.
And worse than that, if the NT verse claims it is to fulfill and OT prophecy, that is dishonest.

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[VictoryinJesus]

BINGO

You didn’t have to say bingo. “Matthew tried to connect it to Jesus when it wasn’t about Jesus.” That wasn’t my observation but what I think Wick Stick is trying to prove. You two agree? I think so. I’ll stick with Matthew and not call “Matthew, that is out of context!” Yes, yes I’ll stick with Matthew pulled nothing out of context but instead put it in context of an over-all-bigger picture. I can’t tell you how often the out-of-context police cry that they don’t like the way a verse is applied. I mean it understandable when it is regarding my use of a verse or some other. It’s understandable to get called “out of context”. But to question what is written as out of context? Questioning New Testament writers? I’m not buying it. I’m not trying to be mean but now I get the gist of this thread. Now Matthew is called into question for taking verses “out of context” by those who know better of the context . Forgetting he (Matthew)is in good company with Jesus Christ who the Pharisees would cry “out of context”, and Paul a master (Christ in Paul) speaking in Romans 7 of Numbers 5… in Not taking it out of context but putting it in context to help shine a Light on Jesus Christ.

Continue on with the thread. To me each person has to decide for themselves. You are convinced and maybe you are correct. For me though I think a lot of help that could help others is shut down by those who cry out of context. To me it’s a rigid way of seeing and tossing out immediately anything could help someone see Christ. All for the sake of don’t pull it out of context. 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

[St. SteVen]

You didn’t have to say bingo. “Matthew tried to connect it to Jesus when it wasn’t about Jesus.” That wasn’t my observation but what I think Wick Stick is trying to prove. You two agree? I think so. I’ll stick with Matthew and not call “Matthew, that is out of context!” Yes, yes I’ll stick with Matthew pulled nothing out of context but instead put it in context of an over-all-bigger picture.

@Wick Stick explained it very clearly with the sources quoted for you.

There's a lot of them. Here's one:

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea:

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus.

Obviously Matthew acquired that quote (misquote) out-of-context and misrepresented it as a messianic prophecy.

I understand that this is very uncomfortable for you, but those are the facts.

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[St. SteVen]

To me it’s a rigid way of seeing...

So is assuming there are no problems when the facts say otherwise.

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[VictoryinJesus]

Obviously Matthew acquired that quote (misquote) out-of-context and misrepresented it as a messianic prophecy.

I understand that this is very uncomfortable for you, but those are the facts.

It’s not uncomfortable for me. You say those are the facts. That is your opinion. I’m not uncomfortable because even if you are right, it doesn’t change who God is. I won’t scream if I’m wrong. I just love seeing Him in scripture. another of my favorites is
Isaiah 45:1-4 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; [2] I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: [3] And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. [4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

To me it helps. If I had to answer who is given the treasure of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places…I would say Jesus Christ is given the treasures of darkness and hidden riches in secret places. Yet it’s ‘Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut…’

To me “the treasures of darkness” “hidden riches in secret places” is what was spoken of here:Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them and said to His mother Mary, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and as a sign to be opposed— [35] and a sword will pierce your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

I get you may also say “out of context”. That is your opinion same as I have an opinion… the above helps though with 1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

To me it speaks of Christ revealing the secret things of the heart, the hidden riches. Maybe that makes no sense. I wouldn’t be uncomfortable as you say if I’m wrong. But seeing Christ revealed helps me see how all context points to Jesus Christ and in return reveals the Father.

Would you be uncomfortable if you are wrong about Matthews application of an Old Testament passage?

 

[St. SteVen]

I’m not uncomfortable because even if you are right, it doesn’t change who God is.

Agree.
I would like to understand why the NT authors felt justified in what they did.
Or that the translators, or whoever is responsible to be brought to light.
There is an obvious literary problem here. Things don't add up. Why?

Would you be uncomfortable if you are wrong about Matthews application of an Old Testament passage?

No.
But someone has a LOT of 'splaining to do. - LOL

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[VictoryinJesus]

No.
But someone has a LOT of 'splaining to do. - LOL

LOL

 

[Wick Stick]

I went back to clarify. I’m not following the argument very well. Mostly because I don’t get the value of trying to prove New Testament quotes referring to the Old Testament were never intended to be messianic prophecy. I mean am I misunderstanding the purpose?

Yes, I think you've missed it.

The purpose of pointing out that THE APOSTLE MATTHEW fails to use "what would be considered sound hermeneutical principles in today's seminaries" is not to impugn Matthew, but rather to question the seminaries, pastors, churches, and perhaps even frequent-internet-forum posters who insist on interpreting Scripture that way.

To be fair to you - nobody here has really come out and said so directly, and instead opted to do this in a humorous, sarcastic way...

...but I really don't want to encourage Matthew's spurious hermeneutics.