I’m looking at The Ante Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. You should take a look at it too if you have access to it.
Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?
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I’m looking at The Ante Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. You should take a look at it too if you have access to it.
You cited the following link in post #311: https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0030-0100,_Ignatius_Antiochensis,_Epistola_ad_Polycarpum_[Schaff],_EN.pdf.
From it I copied/pasted two versions seemingly in full in post #315. Again, there's only one section that differs slightly in each version but not in a way that changes what's being said. One just includes "even as does the Lord of all" and a scriptural verse:
"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."
"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life], even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture], “He Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” Where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."
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Since I have it open, I’ll quote the long and short versions of the Epistle to the Smyrnians, Chapter 3, in this post.
The short version.
”For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, ‘Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit.’ And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He did eat and drink with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.”
***
The long version.
”And I know that He was possessed of a body not only in His being born and crucified, but I also know that He was so after His resurrection, and believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, ‘Lay hold, Handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit.‘ ‘For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.‘ And He says to Thomas, ‘Reach hither thy finger into the print of the nails, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side;’ and immediately they believed that He was Christ. Wherefore Thomas also says to Him, ‘My Lord and my God.’ And on this account also did they despise death, for it were too little to say, indignities and stripes. Nor was this all; but also after He had shown Himself to them, that He had risen indeed, and not in appearance only, He both ate and drank with them during forty entire days, And thus was He, with the flesh, received up in their sight unto Him that sent Him, being with that same fleah to come again, accompanied by glory and power. For, say, the[holy] oracles, ‘This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye have seen Him go unto heaven.’ But if they say that He will come at the end of the world without a body, how shall those ‘see Him that pierced Him,’ and when they recognize Him, ‘mourn for themselves?’ For incorporeal beings have neither form nor figure, nor the aspect of an animal possessed of shape, because their nature is in itself simple.”
Are you able to confirm this @asoul?
The short version.
”For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, ‘Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit.’ And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He did eat and drink with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.”
***
The long version.
”And I know that He was possessed of a body not only in His being born and crucified, but I also know that He was so after His resurrection, and believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, ‘Lay hold, Handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit.‘ ‘For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.‘ And He says to Thomas, ‘Reach hither thy finger into the print of the nails, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side;’ and immediately they believed that He was Christ. Wherefore Thomas also says to Him, ‘My Lord and my God.’ And on this account also did they despise death, for it were too little to say, indignities and stripes. Nor was this all; but also after He had shown Himself to them, that He had risen indeed, and not in appearance only, He both ate and drank with them during forty entire days, And thus was He, with the flesh, received up in their sight unto Him that sent Him, being with that same fleah to come again, accompanied by glory and power. For, say, the[holy] oracles, ‘This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye have seen Him go unto heaven.’ But if they say that He will come at the end of the world without a body, how shall those ‘see Him that pierced Him,’ and when they recognize Him, ‘mourn for themselves?’ For incorporeal beings have neither form nor figure, nor the aspect of an animal possessed of shape, because their nature is in itself simple.”
Are you able to confirm this @asoul?
Thanks. I see now what the problem is. You are posting from a link that I provided to a different document than the document that I’m reading from. As I said in the post that I provided the link in, I haven’t compared that document with The Ante Nicene Church Fathers book that I’m reading from.
Have you compared Ignatius’ Epistle to the Smyrnaens? (See post #326.) If not, please do and let me know.
Is it not obvious that there is a great difference between the long and short versions of that letter?
I will after you compare the two versions in post #315 with what's in The Ante Nicene Church Fathers book, so let me know.
In this post I will quote the long and short versions of Igantius’ Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 14.
Short version.
”Knowing as I do that ye are full of all good, I have but briefly exhorted you in the love of Jesus Christ, Be mindful of me in your prayers, that I may attain to God; and of the Church which is in Syria, of whom I am not worthy to be called bishop. For I stand in need of your united prayer in God, and of your love, that the Church which is in Syria may be deemed worthy, by your good order, of being called in Christ.”
***
Long version.
”Knowing as I dothat ye are full of God, I have but briefly exhorted you. Be mindful of me in your prayers that I may attain to God; and of the Church which is in Syria, whence I am not worthy to derive my name: for I stand in need of your united prayer in God, and your love, that the Church which is in Syria may be deemed worthy of being refreshed by your Church.”
Short version.
”Knowing as I do that ye are full of all good, I have but briefly exhorted you in the love of Jesus Christ, Be mindful of me in your prayers, that I may attain to God; and of the Church which is in Syria, of whom I am not worthy to be called bishop. For I stand in need of your united prayer in God, and of your love, that the Church which is in Syria may be deemed worthy, by your good order, of being called in Christ.”
***
Long version.
”Knowing as I dothat ye are full of God, I have but briefly exhorted you. Be mindful of me in your prayers that I may attain to God; and of the Church which is in Syria, whence I am not worthy to derive my name: for I stand in need of your united prayer in God, and your love, that the Church which is in Syria may be deemed worthy of being refreshed by your Church.”
The difference in the long version and the short version is obvious. Someone is altering his letters.
Is there any member of the forum who will read the long version and short version of the letter quoted in the post and come forward to say that the letter hasn’t been tampered with by someone?
Again, I will after you compare the two versions in post #315 with what's in The Ante Nicene Church Fathers book, so let me know.
Bladerunner
Member
Yea it was. I recommend reading the history of the Christian (Catholic) Church.
Another example from Ignatius’ Epistle to the Magnesians. This from Chapter 3.
Short version.
”Now it becomes you also not to treat your bishop too familiarly on account of his youth, but to yield him all reverence, having respect to the power of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters to do, not judging rashly, from the manifest youthful appearance [of their bishop], as being themselves prudent in God, submitting to him, or rather not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all. It is therefore fitting that you should, after no hypocritical fashion, obey [your bishop], in honour of Him who has willed us [so to do], since he that does not so deceives not [by such conduct] the bishop that is visible, but seeks to mock Him that is invisible. All such conduct has reference not to man but to God, who knows all secrets.”
***
Long version
”Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to yield him all reverence, according to the will of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not having regard to the manifest youth [of their bishop], but to his knowledge in God; inasmuch as ‘not the ancient are [necessarily] wise, nor do the aged understand prudence; but there is a spirit in men.’ For Daniel the wise, at twelve years of age, became possessed of the divine Spirit, and convicted the elders, who in vain carried their grey hairs, of being false accusers, and of lusting after the beauty of another man’s wife. Samuel also, when he was but a little child, reproved Eli, who was ninety years old, for giving honour to his sons rather than to God. In like manner, Jeremiah also received this message from God, ‘Say not, I am a child.‘ Solomon too, and Josiah, [exemplified the same thing.] The former, being made king at twelve years of age, gave that terrible and difficult judgment in the case of the two women concerning their children. The latter, coming to the throne when eight years old, cast down the altars and temples [of the idols], and burned down the groves, for they were dedicated to demons, and not to God. And he slew the false priests, as the corrupters and deceivers of men, and not the worshippers of the Deity. Wherefore youth is not to be despised when it is devoted to God. But he is to be despised who is of a wicked mind., although he be old, and full of wicked days. Timothy the Christ-bearer was young, but hear what his teacher writes to him: ‘Let no man despise thy youth, but be thou an example of the believers in word and in conduct.’ It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, hoever, cannot be mocked by anyone. And every such act has respect not to man, but to God. For God says to Samuel, ‘They have not mocked thee, but Me.’ And Moses declares, ‘For their murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord God. No one of those has, [in fact], remained unpunished, who rose up against their superiors. For Dathan and Abiram did not speak against the law, but against Moses, and were cast down alive into Hades. Korah also, and the two hundred and fifty who conspired with him against Aaron, were destroyed by fire. Absalom, again, who had slain his brother, became suspended on a tree, and had his evil-designing heart thrust through with darts. In like manner was Abeddadan beheaded for the same reason. Uzziah, when he presumed to oppose the priests and the priesthood, was smitten with leprosy. Saul also was dishonoured, ecause he did not wait for Samuel the high priest. It behoves you, therefore, also to reverence your superiors.”
The short version was written by Ignatius. The long version wasn’t written by Ignatius. It was written later by someone else who needed to greatly turn up the heat in his own day. If I had to guess, I would suspect that it was written in the third or fourth century.
Short version.
”Now it becomes you also not to treat your bishop too familiarly on account of his youth, but to yield him all reverence, having respect to the power of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters to do, not judging rashly, from the manifest youthful appearance [of their bishop], as being themselves prudent in God, submitting to him, or rather not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all. It is therefore fitting that you should, after no hypocritical fashion, obey [your bishop], in honour of Him who has willed us [so to do], since he that does not so deceives not [by such conduct] the bishop that is visible, but seeks to mock Him that is invisible. All such conduct has reference not to man but to God, who knows all secrets.”
***
Long version
”Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to yield him all reverence, according to the will of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not having regard to the manifest youth [of their bishop], but to his knowledge in God; inasmuch as ‘not the ancient are [necessarily] wise, nor do the aged understand prudence; but there is a spirit in men.’ For Daniel the wise, at twelve years of age, became possessed of the divine Spirit, and convicted the elders, who in vain carried their grey hairs, of being false accusers, and of lusting after the beauty of another man’s wife. Samuel also, when he was but a little child, reproved Eli, who was ninety years old, for giving honour to his sons rather than to God. In like manner, Jeremiah also received this message from God, ‘Say not, I am a child.‘ Solomon too, and Josiah, [exemplified the same thing.] The former, being made king at twelve years of age, gave that terrible and difficult judgment in the case of the two women concerning their children. The latter, coming to the throne when eight years old, cast down the altars and temples [of the idols], and burned down the groves, for they were dedicated to demons, and not to God. And he slew the false priests, as the corrupters and deceivers of men, and not the worshippers of the Deity. Wherefore youth is not to be despised when it is devoted to God. But he is to be despised who is of a wicked mind., although he be old, and full of wicked days. Timothy the Christ-bearer was young, but hear what his teacher writes to him: ‘Let no man despise thy youth, but be thou an example of the believers in word and in conduct.’ It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, hoever, cannot be mocked by anyone. And every such act has respect not to man, but to God. For God says to Samuel, ‘They have not mocked thee, but Me.’ And Moses declares, ‘For their murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord God. No one of those has, [in fact], remained unpunished, who rose up against their superiors. For Dathan and Abiram did not speak against the law, but against Moses, and were cast down alive into Hades. Korah also, and the two hundred and fifty who conspired with him against Aaron, were destroyed by fire. Absalom, again, who had slain his brother, became suspended on a tree, and had his evil-designing heart thrust through with darts. In like manner was Abeddadan beheaded for the same reason. Uzziah, when he presumed to oppose the priests and the priesthood, was smitten with leprosy. Saul also was dishonoured, ecause he did not wait for Samuel the high priest. It behoves you, therefore, also to reverence your superiors.”
The short version was written by Ignatius. The long version wasn’t written by Ignatius. It was written later by someone else who needed to greatly turn up the heat in his own day. If I had to guess, I would suspect that it was written in the third or fourth century.
Many books have been written on the history of the Church. I consider Philip Schaff’s book The History Of The Christian Church to be essential reading. It’s available to read at no cost on line.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
www.ccel.org
Again, I will after you compare the two versions in post #315 with what's in The Ante Nicene Church Fathers book, so let me know. Are you going to?
The Christian (Catholic) Church. Protestantism doesn't go back over two thousand years.
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