Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[Bladerunner]

A pretty thorough and extensive treatment of the issues surrounding this topic is provided in Encyclopedia of the Bible, “Brothers of Jesus” available on Bible Gateway (link provided).

Brothers of Jesus - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Again, The Bible tells who they are yet there are those that try to find ways to discredit GOD's word and His sovereignty over His written word. It is simple, I believe the Bible as it is written....I need nothing else,,,FAITH in our Lord Jesus Christ as you do.

 

[Matthias]

The presupposition that the marriage was never consummated drives the Catholic position. The biblical purpose for marriage between a man and a woman aborted.

 

[Bladerunner]

The presupposition that the marriage was never consummated drives the Catholic position. The biblical purpose for marriage between a man and a woman aborted.

oh, you lost me....the marriage between Joseph and Mary?????

 

[Matthias]

oh, you lost me....the marriage between Joseph and Mary?????

Yes. The Roman Catholic belief is that they didn’t consummate their marriage after Jesus was born. The fundamental biblical purpose for marriage is for children to be produced.

The non-biblical (some Catholics I’ve spoken with have called it extra-biblical rather than non-biblical) perpetual virginity of Mary dogma and tradition forces the Catholic interpretation of scripture that has been put forward in this thread.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes. The Roman Catholic belief is that they didn’t consummate their marriage after Jesus was born. The fundamental biblical purpose for marriage is for children to be produced.

Yes, I finally found the first part of the post that you were posting against.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes. The Roman Catholic belief is that they didn’t consummate their marriage after Jesus was born. The fundamental biblical purpose for marriage is for children to be produced.

It is a way to 'dis the family of Jesus Christ especially Joseph...Yet they failed to take into account that they had an ancient Leverite marriage according to customs.

 

[Matthias]

It is a way to 'dis the family of Jesus Christ especially Joseph...Yet they failed to take into account that they had an ancient Leverite marriage according to customs.

Ironic, isn’t it. By elevating Mary - to greatly honor her - they have disrespected her, her husband and their children. Their family unit is destroyed by Catholicism.

It was a shameful and traumatic experience in biblical times for a married woman not to have children by her husband. If a man died without having children with his wife then his brother was to marry the childless widow and produce children in his stead.

Mary should be honored, of course, but as a loving and fruitful wife, mother of the children (sons and daughters) which she bore Joseph.

I asked one of the Catholics in this thread if he would remain a Catholic if he found out that Mary and Joseph did have a normal marital life (after Jesus was born) and he said that he would. Maybe he would, but I doubt it.

 

[Matthias]

The perpetual virginity of Mary dogma is a tradition of man. That’s typically an issue for non-Catholics; not an issue at all for Roman Catholics.

 

[Bladerunner]

Ironic, isn’t it. By elevating Mary - to greatly honor her - they have disrespected her, her husband and their children. Their family unit is destroyed by Catholicism.

It was a shameful and traumatic experience in biblical times for a married woman not to have children by her husband. If a man died without having children with his wife then his brother was to marry the childless widow and produce children in his stead.

Mary should be honored, of course, but as a loving and fruitful wife, mother of the children (sons and daughters) which she bore Joseph.

I asked one of the Catholics in this thread if he would remain a Catholic if he found out that Mary and Joseph did have a normal marital life (after Jesus was born) and he said that he would. Maybe he would, but I doubt it.

Yep, understand,,,,,,one just told me that Jesus was not GOD but for unity.......I ask him if he believed as a pharisee. We can only hope and pray for them. Jesus tells us in the 7 letters to the 7 churches there will be overcomers from each church...and all churches since then has been represented by those original seven. Even in the RCC (Thyatira) there will be overcomers.

 

[LuxMundy]

I asked one of the Catholics in this thread if he would remain a Catholic if he found out that Mary and Joseph did have a normal marital life (after Jesus was born) and he said that he would. Maybe he would, but I doubt it.

I'm the Catholic who was asked that hypothetical question and I stand by my answer. Why would or should I stop being a member of the Church Jesus founded just because I found out that something I believed to be true was false? Anyway, I'm not wrong on the topic of this thread because, again, the scriptural verses and early Church Father writings in post #4 collectively proves that those believed to be Jesus's half-siblings were actually His cousins. At the very least, Scripture alone shows that they weren't His half-siblings.

The Roman Catholic belief is that they didn’t consummate their marriage after Jesus was born.

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage comprised two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows that sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

The fundamental biblical purpose for marriage is for children to be produced.

God doesn't have a law that forbids a husband and wife from taking a vow of chastity.

 

[Matthias]

I'm the Catholic who was asked that hypothetical question …

Yes.

…and I stand by my answer. Why would or should I stop being a member of Jesus's Church just because I found out that something I believed to be true was false?

The RCC isn’t Jesus Christ’s Church.

Anyway, I'm not wrong on the topic of this thread because, again, the scriptural verses and early Church Father writings in post #4 shows that those believed to be Jesus's half-siblings were actually His cousins. At the very least, Scripture alone shows that they weren't His half-siblings.



In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage comprised two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows that sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

I’ll leave it to others if they want to pick up the discussion with you.

God doesn't have a law that forbids a husband and wife from taking a vow of chastity for Him.

Paul has instruction for husbands and wives.

 

[LuxMundy]

The RCC isn’t Jesus Christ’s Church.

It actually is. Jesus founded Christianity in His homeland, and His Christian Church, also known now as the Christian (Catholic) Church, and the first Christians were Jewish people. The first leaders of the Christian (Catholic) Church were the twelve apostles, that's what Jesus spent three years training them to be, and that line of succession hasn't been broken for over two thousand years.

I’ll leave it to others if they want to pick up the discussion with you.

That's fine. I was just referring you back to post #4, as well as enlightening you on the marital customs in Israel in the days of Joseph and Mary, since I noticed you stated in error that (I) Jesus had half-siblings, and (II) sexual intercourse is what consummated a marriage.

Paul has instruction for husbands and wives.

Neither God nor Paul forbids a husband and wife from taking a vow of chastity.

 

[Matthias]

It actually is.

It actually isn’t and never was.

Jesus founded Christianity in His homeland, and His Christian Church, also known now as the Christian (Catholic) Church,

Brackets is a giveaway that your argument is biased. Remove them and I could agree with this part of your comment.

… and the first Christians were Jewish people.

Yes. Just like Jesus and the Apostles.

The first leaders of the Christian (Catholic) Church were the twelve apostles..l

See above.

… that's what Jesus spent three years training them to be, and that line of succession hasn't been broken for over two thousand years.

There are no Apostles of their rank today.

That's fine. I was just referring you back to post #4, as well as enlightening you on the marital customs in Israel in the days of Joseph and Mary, since I noticed you stated in error that (I) Jesus had half-siblings, and (II) sexual intercourse is what consummated a marriage.



Neither God nor Paul forbids a husband and wife from taking a vow of chastity.

 

[Matthias]

Good title. Christianity is Jewish, not Roman Catholic (nor Protestant).

 

[LuxMundy]

It actually isn’t and never was.

Only the Christian (Catholic) Church has existed for over two thousand years. So, it's impossible to be the Christian (Catholic) Church that isn't and never was the Church that Jesus founded.

There are no Apostles of their rank today.

The succession of Peter's role in the Church, for example, hasn't been broken for over two thousand years. Google and see for yourself.

Christianity is Jewish, not Roman Catholic (nor Protestant).

Christianity is the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.

 

[Matthias]

Only the Christian (Catholic) Church has existed for over two thousand years.

The brackets make it a false premise.

So, it's impossible to be the Christian (Catholic) Church that isn't and never was the Church that Jesus founded.

It is impossible to be the Christian Church that isn’t and never was the Church that Jesus founded.

See how close we could be with that simple removal of the premise which you placed in brackets?

The succession of Peter's role in the Church, for example, hasn't been broken for over two thousand years. Google and see for yourself.

Google the arguments against it and see for yourself.

 

[LuxMundy]

The brackets make it a false premise.

Are you open to me showing you why it's not?

Google the arguments against it and see for yourself.

There have been 266 popes in the history of the Christian (Catholic) Church, from Peter to Francis.

Part I

• St. Peter (32-67)
• St. Linus (67-76)
• St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
• St. Clement I (88-97)
• St. Evaristus (97-105)
• St. Alexander I (105-115)
• St. Sixtus I (115-125)
• St. Telesphorus (125-136)
• St. Hyginus (136-140)
• St. Pius I (140-155)
• St. Anicetus (155-166)
• St. Soter (166-175)
• St. Eleutherius (175-189)
• St. Victor I (189-199)
• St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
• St. Callistus I (217-22)
• St. Urban I (222-30)
• St. Pontian (230-35)
• St. Anterus (235-36)
• St. Fabian (236-50)
• St. Cornelius (251-53)
• St. Lucius I (253-54)
• St. Stephen I (254-257)
• St. Sixtus II (257-258)
• St. Dionysius (260-268)
• St. Felix I (269-274)
• St. Eutychian (275-283)
• St. Caius (283-296)
• St. Marcellinus (296-304)
• St. Marcellus I (308-309)
• St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
• St. Miltiades (311-14)
• St. Sylvester I (314-35)
• St. Marcus (336)
• St. Julius I (337-52)
• Liberius (352-66)
• St. Damasus I (366-84)
• St. Siricius (384-99)
• St. Anastasius I (399-401)
• St. Innocent I (401-17)
• St. Zosimus (417-18)
• St. Boniface I (418-22)
• St. Celestine I (422-32)
• St. Sixtus III (432-40)
• St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
• St. Hilarius (461-68)
• St. Simplicius (468-83)
• St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
• St. Gelasius I (492-96)
• Anastasius II (496-98)
• St. Symmachus (498-514)
• St. Hormisdas (514-23)
• St. John I (523-26)
• St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
• Boniface II (530-32)
• John II (533-35)
• St. Agapetus I (535-36)
• St. Silverius (536-37)
• Vigilius (537-55)
• Pelagius I (556-61)
• John III (561-74)
• Benedict I (575-79)
• Pelagius II (579-90)
• St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
• Sabinian (604-606)
• Boniface III (607)
• St. Boniface IV (608-15)
• St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
• Boniface V (619-25)
• Honorius I (625-38)
• Severinus (640)
• John IV (640-42)
• Theodore I (642-49)
• St. Martin I (649-55)
• St. Eugene I (655-57)
• St. Vitalian (657-72)
• Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
• Donus (676-78)
• St. Agatho (678-81)
• St. Leo II (682-83)
• St. Benedict II (684-85)
• John V (685-86)
• Conon (686-87)
• St. Sergius I (687-701)
• John VI (701-05)
• John VII (705-07)
• Sisinnius (708)
• Constantine (708-15)
• St. Gregory II (715-31)
• St. Gregory III (731-41)
• St. Zachary (741-52)
• Stephen II (III) (752-57)
• St. Paul I (757-67)
• Stephen III (IV) (767-72)
• Adrian I (772-95)
• St. Leo III (795-816)
• Stephen IV (V) (816-17)
• St. Paschal I (817-24)
• Eugene II (824-27)
• Valentine (827)

 

[LuxMundy]

Part II

• Gregory IV (827-44)
• Sergius II (844-47)
• St. Leo IV (847-55)
• Benedict III (855-58)
• St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
• Adrian II (867-72)
• John VIII (872-82)
• Marinus I (882-84)
• St. Adrian III (884-85)
• Stephen V (VI) (885-91)
• Formosus (891-96)
• Boniface VI (896)
• Stephen VI (VII) (896-97)
• Romanus (897)
• Theodore II (897)
• John IX (898-900)
• Benedict IV (900-03)
• Leo V (903)
• Sergius III (904-11)
• Anastasius III (911-13)
• Lando (913-14)
• John X (914-28)
• Leo VI (928)
• Stephen VIII (929-31)
• John XI (931-35)
• Leo VII (936-39)
• Stephen IX (939-42)
• Marinus II (942-46)
• Agapetus II (946-55)
• John XII (955-63)
• Leo VIII (963-64)
• Benedict V (964)
• John XIII (965-72)
• Benedict VI (973-74)
• Benedict VII (974-83)
• John XIV (983-84)
• John XV (985-96)
• Gregory V (996-99)
• Sylvester II (999-1003)
• John XVII (1003)
• John XVIII (1003-09)
• Sergius IV (1009-12)
• Benedict VIII (1012-24)
• John XIX (1024-32)
• Benedict IX (1032-45)
• Benedict IX (1045)
• Gregory VI (1045-46)
• Clement II (1046-47)
• Benedict IX (1047-48)
• Damasus II (1048)
• St. Leo IX (1049-54)
• Victor II (1055-57)
• Stephen X (1057-58)
• Nicholas II (1058-61)
• Alexander II (1061-73)
• St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
• Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
• Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
• Paschal II (1099-1118)
• Gelasius II (1118-19)
• Callistus II (1119-24)
• Honorius II (1124-30)
• Innocent II (1130-43)
• Celestine II (1143-44)
• Lucius II (1144-45)
• Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
• Anastasius IV (1153-54)
• Adrian IV (1154-59)
• Alexander III (1159-81)
• Lucius III (1181-85)
• Urban III (1185-87)
• Gregory VIII (1187)
• Clement III (1187-91)
• Celestine III (1191-98)
• Innocent III (1198-1216)
• Honorius III (1216-27)
• Gregory IX (1227-41)
• Celestine IV (1241)
• Innocent IV (1243-54)
• Alexander IV (1254-61)
• Urban IV (1261-64)
• Clement IV (1265-68)
• Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
• Blessed Innocent V (1276)
• Adrian V (1276)
• John XXI (1276-77)
• Nicholas III (1277-80)
• Martin IV (1281-85)
• Honorius IV (1285-87)
• Nicholas IV (1288-92)
• St. Celestine V (1294)
• Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
• Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
• Clement V (1305-14)
• John XXII (1316-34) Opposed by Nicholas V, antipope (1328-1330)
• Benedict XII (1334-42)
• Clement VI (1342-52)
• Innocent VI (1352-62)

 

[LuxMundy]

Part III

• Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
• Gregory XI (1370-78)
• Urban VI (1378-89)
• Boniface IX (1389-1404)
• Innocent VII (1404-06)
• Gregory XII (1406-15)
• Martin V (1417-31)
• Eugene IV (1431-47)
• Nicholas V (1447-55)
• Callistus III (1455-58)
• Pius II (1458-64)
• Paul II (1464-71)
• Sixtus IV (1471-84)
• Innocent VIII (1484-92)
• Alexander VI (1492-1503)
• Pius III (1503)
• Julius II (1503-13)
• Leo X (1513-21)
• Adrian VI (1522-23)
• Clement VII (1523-34)
• Paul III (1534-49)
• Julius III (1550-55)
• Marcellus II (1555)
• Paul IV (1555-59)
• Pius IV (1559-65)
• St. Pius V (1566-72)
• Gregory XIII (1572-85)
• Sixtus V (1585-90)
• Urban VII (1590)
• Gregory XIV (1590-91)
• Innocent IX (1591)
• Clement VIII (1592-1605)
• Leo XI (1605)
• Paul V (1605-21)
• Gregory XV (1621-23)
• Urban VIII (1623-44)
• Innocent X (1644-55)
• Alexander VII (1655-67)
• Clement IX (1667-69)
• Clement X (1670-76)
• Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
• Alexander VIII (1689-91)
• Innocent XII (1691-1700)
• Clement XI (1700-21)
• Innocent XIII (1721-24)
• Benedict XIII (1724-30)
• Clement XII (1730-40)
• Benedict XIV (1740-58)
• Clement XIII (1758-69)
• Clement XIV (1769-74)
• Pius VI (1775-99)
• Pius VII (1800-23)
• Leo XII (1823-29)
• Pius VIII (1829-30)
• Gregory XVI (1831-46)
• Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
• Leo XIII (1878-1903)
• St. Pius X (1903-14)
• Benedict XV (1914-22)
• Pius XI (1922-39)
• Pius XII (1939-58)
• St. John XXIII (1958-63)
• St. Paul VI (1963-78)
• John Paul I (1978)
• St. John Paul II (1978-2005)
• Benedict XVI (2005-2013)
• Francis (2013—)

 

[Matthias]

Are you open to me showing you why it's not?



There have been 266 popes in the history of the Christian (Catholic Church), from Peter to Francis.

• St. Peter (32-67)
• St. Linus (67-76)
• St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
• St. Clement I (88-97)
• St. Evaristus (97-105)
• St. Alexander I (105-115)
• St. Sixtus I (115-125)
• St. Telesphorus (125-136)
• St. Hyginus (136-140)
• St. Pius I (140-155)
• St. Anicetus (155-166)
• St. Soter (166-175)
• St. Eleutherius (175-189)
• St. Victor I (189-199)
• St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
• St. Callistus I (217-22)
• St. Urban I (222-30)
• St. Pontian (230-35)
• St. Anterus (235-36)
• St. Fabian (236-50)
• St. Cornelius (251-53)
• St. Lucius I (253-54)
• St. Stephen I (254-257)
• St. Sixtus II (257-258)
• St. Dionysius (260-268)
• St. Felix I (269-274)
• St. Eutychian (275-283)
• St. Caius (283-296)
• St. Marcellinus (296-304)
• St. Marcellus I (308-309)
• St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
• St. Miltiades (311-14)
• St. Sylvester I (314-35)
• St. Marcus (336)
• St. Julius I (337-52)
• Liberius (352-66)
• St. Damasus I (366-84)
• St. Siricius (384-99)
• St. Anastasius I (399-401)
• St. Innocent I (401-17)
• St. Zosimus (417-18)
• St. Boniface I (418-22)
• St. Celestine I (422-32)
• St. Sixtus III (432-40)
• St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
• St. Hilarius (461-68)
• St. Simplicius (468-83)
• St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
• St. Gelasius I (492-96)
• Anastasius II (496-98)
• St. Symmachus (498-514)
• St. Hormisdas (514-23)
• St. John I (523-26)
• St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
• Boniface II (530-32)
• John II (533-35)
• St. Agapetus I (535-36)
• St. Silverius (536-37)
• Vigilius (537-55)
• Pelagius I (556-61)
• John III (561-74)
• Benedict I (575-79)
• Pelagius II (579-90)
• St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
• Sabinian (604-606)
• Boniface III (607)
• St. Boniface IV (608-15)
• St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
• Boniface V (619-25)
• Honorius I (625-38)
• Severinus (640)
• John IV (640-42)
• Theodore I (642-49)
• St. Martin I (649-55)
• St. Eugene I (655-57)
• St. Vitalian (657-72)
• Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
• Donus (676-78)
• St. Agatho (678-81)
• St. Leo II (682-83)
• St. Benedict II (684-85)
• John V (685-86)
• Conon (686-87)
• St. Sergius I (687-701)
• John VI (701-05)
• John VII (705-07)
• Sisinnius (708)
• Constantine (708-15)
• St. Gregory II (715-31)
• St. Gregory III (731-41)
• St. Zachary (741-52)
• Stephen II (III) (752-57)
• St. Paul I (757-67)
• Stephen III (IV) (767-72)
• Adrian I (772-95)
• St. Leo III (795-816)
• Stephen IV (V) (816-17)
• St. Paschal I (817-24)
• Eugene II (824-27)
• Valentine (827)

You offered for my consideration (in this post and the two that followed) nothing more than the RCC party line.

The RCC began with the establishment of orthodoxy in the 4th century.