We LOVE the CATHOLICS!

[Philip James]

the Lutherans foolishly signed up to.

Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt

 

[brakelite]

Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt

You really believe that the declaration on justification by faith is truly an accurate depiction of reformation theology? That Catholics now believe in the reformers' beliefs on justification by faith? Or that Lutherans have back-pedalled and now believe in the Papal understanding of justification by faith? Or that both have modified their views and couched it in language their followers can accept, but fail to understand? Or is the agreement so full of confusing nonsense as to deceive as many as possible into believing in a union that doesn't really exist?
If you don't believe there is a great amount of duplicity going on consider the following. In a more recent document signed by both Catholics and Lutherans the document (Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry, and Eucharist) declares on the subject of apostolicity page 28-29...
Luther contributed to this insight when "he insisted that a manifold Christian substance must be recognised in the Roman Catholic Church, (take note @BreadOfLife that word 'Roman' was not provided by me but is repeated in a document signed by your own church) for he perceived there (in the Roman Catholic Church) the true Holy Scriptures, true Baptism, the true sacrament [of the altar], the true keys for the forgiveness of sins, the true office of proclamation, and the true catechism."
IN section 13 p30-31 this document also declares...
The proclaimed gospel has a primacy among mediations of communion in Christ and his benefits, but receiving it in faith entails as well receiving the sacramental practices of Baptism, the Lord's Supper or Eucharist, and absolution from sin---all administered by those called to the ministry of word and sacrament.
Thus this document, a rehash of the 1997 version on justification under a different name, would have everyone believe that Martin Luther accepted the above declarations on justification and the authority of the RCC in matters of faith and practice. True scriptures? True baptism? True sacrament? true keys to salvation? True office of proclamation and true catechism? Really? Luther agreed with all this???? That is a lie perpetrated by both parties in denial of the truth.
What Luther truly believed can be found here....
"Nothing else that the kingdom of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the Papal tyranny." Martin Luther, First Principles pp196-197

 

[epostle1]

UT UNAM SINT (that they may be one)

I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
Ut Unum Sint (25 May 1995) | John Paul II

Yea, I know. I often fail miserably.

Good OP, Scott.

 

[Enoch111]

And take care we aren't being deceived by deliberate vagaries such as the "Declaration of Justification by Faith" that the Lutherans foolishly signed up to.

I was not aware of this Declaration until you mentioned it here (since I do not really follow what Lutherans do or don't do). Then I went through this Declaration and discovered that it does not even properly present the biblical meaning of "justification", let alone "by faith". Since it includes allusions to baptismal regeneration, it would be even more confusing to someone who was searching for the truth.

 

[epostle1]

There are other encyclicals on faith and justification. There is also lots in the catechism. Better still, there are more streamlined apologetic articles on faith and justification that are easier to read, and don't have 162 footnotes. The theme of Ut Unum Sint is ecumenism, which is based on Jesus' prayer "that they may be one". That is the focus. Everything the Church teaches is available on line, the information is there for anyone who wants it.
I don't recommend encyclicals or the catechism for honest inquirers, they are too long and technical.
www.catholic.com has an excellent search engine providing articles, videos, radio shows, ask an apologist page, and of course an extensive forum.

 

[ScottA]

UT UNAM SINT (that they may be one)

I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
Ut Unum Sint (25 May 1995) | John Paul II

Yea, I know. I often fail miserably.

Good OP, Scott.

Thank you. That is good...if it can just be taken to heart.

I do hope that Catholics can consider that said "divisions", began at the passage sighted in the OP where Peter correctly answered who Jesus was/is. And if that was the moment of division, then examine just what the two paths of departure were, that we can eventually agree on God's plan for His church.

The answer is in the end game, as these are the end times.

 

[epostle1]

Evangelicals, Pope Meet to Further Religious Freedom

Pope Francis on December 14, 2017, met with the leadership of the World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) to discuss ways to work together to promote religious freedom around the world.

Bishop Efraim Tendero, WEA General Secretary and CEO, led the delegation. He was quoted by Vatican Radio that the group brought to the Pope a “call for closer partnership” in protecting religious freedom, promoting the distribution of bibles and addressing social justice issues. “We want to see this world to be a place where peace, justice and righteousness reign”, he said, “where everyone has a decent standard of living, and where Jesus Christ is recognized as Lord of all.”

According to Vatican Radio, the bishop admitted that major theological differences remain, but it’s increasingly important to “look for a common agenda”, rather than “focus on what differs and what pulls us apart”.

Pope Francis has reached out to Evangelicals over the past several years in an effort to mend fences and establish common areas of interest. Most recently, he welcomed Evangelical leaders visiting Rome for the 2017 Feast of Pentecost.

Evangelicals, Pope Meet to Further Religious Freedom - ZENIT - English

 

[Josiah]

This is a debate forum and things get said that could and often should be considered as harsh. But, for the record...most of us here LOVE THE CATHOLICS. Do we disagree on things? Yes, but we do so as parent and child. Allow me to explain:

We are indeed the children of the fathers of the church...but we all have not taken the same path as our parents. Which is not to say that we have left off from following God, but have rather taken a different fork in the road, a different path. You see, the passages that Catholics sight as the reason for what they believe, claiming that Christ said He would build His church on the rock otherwise know as Peter...also says something else. In fact the whole passage is about "how" Jesus would build His church, not upon "who." This, He said was by the same means by which Peter came to know that Jesus was the Christ, which was by the spirit, through His Father in heaven. So, Peter was just the [object] of that passage, but the [subject] was the spirit of God...and that is the fork in the road: the church fathers followed Peter and built their church on earth, while the spirit of God built His church without hands.

Thus, being the children of both men and of the spirit of God - some have gone separate ways. Which does not make us enemies, but makes us separate in spirit, siblings of another father...but having the same mother (so to speak).

Another way to view our family tie, is to consider that we are like the next generation of Israel that crossed the Jordan after God saw fit to let the previous generation wander in the wilderness and die in the desert and not get to go on into the promised land. Do you think there was any rivalry or hatred between the next generation and their forefathers? Maybe. But if there was, it would have been uncalled for - just as it is now uncalled for between the church fathers and we who are of their children who have crossed over the Jordan that Jesus presented between building His church upon a man or by the spirit of God.

So, yes, there has been a departure between those who follow the sons of men and those who follow the spirit of God - and rightly so. But we are family...and we do not hate our forefathers, not Israel, and not the Catholics.

I completely agree. I was raised Catholic and I rejoice in that, and I find MUCH in that denomination that is good and praiseworthy. And of course, I disagree with a FEW of its views (and the status of a few more). But just as our earthly family members at times disagree (don't even mention the word "Trump" at any of my family gatherings, lol) so it can be in the family of Christians (the church), but they are our full, unseparated, equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ (with whom we OCCASIONALLY disagree).

On the one hand, truth matters. We are commanded to speak the TRUTH and adhere to the TRUTH. Scripture over and over tells us to rebuke and correct wrong behavior, wrong teachings and wrong teachers (and we certainly have the example of Jesus on this). I reject the uber-relativism and minimalism that has infected modern culture (and perhaps Christianity more than any other aspect of this), the "Mr Rogers' - Kumbyah" core value that says nothing is true or everything is true if its true to you.

On the other hand, we are speak the truth with LOVE. A lot of this has to do with attitude! LOVE causes us to care about our brother or sister. LOVE causes us to reach out and help help - NOT because we are better but because we need it in return. And there certainly is a need for humility at the basis of all. We are commanded to avoid speculations. And I passionately believe that we must bow before the wisdom and truth of God - and NOT subject God to our puny, sinful, fallen brains as if we are Lord over God. As Lutherans are fond of saying, "God gets the last word." We should be comfortable leaving things as God does, accepting that our questions are just our questions and do not give ourselves the "right" to "answer" them. We need to accept tensions, counterpoints, balance... and mysteries. We are told that we are "Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" not "correctors" of God.

Speak the Truth.... always with love. It's not either/or.


MY perspective


- Josiah (the newbie)



.

 

[Helen]

Welcome to the Site @Josiah

Bless you :)

 

[ScottA]

I completely agree. I was raised Catholic and I rejoice in that, and I find MUCH in that denomination that is good and praiseworthy. And of course, I disagree with a FEW of its views (and the status of a few more). But just as our earthly family members at times disagree (don't even mention the word "Trump" at any of my family gatherings, lol) so it can be in the family of Christians (the church), but they are our full, unseparated, equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ (with whom we OCCASIONALLY disagree).

On the one hand, truth matters. We are commanded to speak the TRUTH and adhere to the TRUTH. Scripture over and over tells us to rebuke and correct wrong behavior, wrong teachings and wrong teachers (and we certainly have the example of Jesus on this). I reject the uber-relativism and minimalism that has infected modern culture (and perhaps Christianity more than any other aspect of this), the "Mr Rogers' - Kumbyah" core value that says nothing is true or everything is true if its true to you.

On the other hand, we are speak the truth with LOVE. A lot of this has to do with attitude! LOVE causes us to care about our brother or sister. LOVE causes us to reach out and help help - NOT because we are better but because we need it in return. And there certainly is a need for humility at the basis of all. We are commanded to avoid speculations. And I passionately believe that we must bow before the wisdom and truth of God - and NOT subject God to our puny, sinful, fallen brains as if we are Lord over God. As Lutherans are fond of saying, "God gets the last word." We should be comfortable leaving things as God does, accepting that our questions are just our questions and do not give ourselves the "right" to "answer" them. We need to accept tensions, counterpoints, balance... and mysteries. We are told that we are "Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God" not "correctors" of God.

Speak the Truth.... always with love. It's not either/or.


MY perspective


- Josiah (the newbie)



.

Very well stated. Words to live by. Welcome!

 

[LC627]

@BreadOfLife is my best friend here. :cool: We don't agree on everything but that's ok, I like the dude.

 

[ScottA]

@BreadOfLife is my best friend here. :cool: We don't agree on everything but that's ok, I like the dude.

Well done...enter into the joy of the Lord!

 

[Josiah]

This is a debate forum and things get said that could and often should be considered as harsh. But, for the record...most of us here LOVE THE CATHOLICS. Do we disagree on things? Yes, but we do so as parent and child. Allow me to explain:

We are indeed the children of the fathers of the church...but we all have not taken the same path as our parents. Which is not to say that we have left off from following God, but have rather taken a different fork in the road, a different path. You see, the passages that Catholics sight as the reason for what they believe, claiming that Christ said He would build His church on the rock otherwise know as Peter...also says something else. In fact the whole passage is about "how" Jesus would build His church, not upon "who." This, He said was by the same means by which Peter came to know that Jesus was the Christ, which was by the spirit, through His Father in heaven. So, Peter was just the [object] of that passage, but the [subject] was the spirit of God...and that is the fork in the road: the church fathers followed Peter and built their church on earth, while the spirit of God built His church without hands.

Thus, being the children of both men and of the spirit of God - some have gone separate ways. Which does not make us enemies, but makes us separate in spirit, siblings of another father...but having the same mother (so to speak).

Another way to view our family tie, is to consider that we are like the next generation of Israel that crossed the Jordan after God saw fit to let the previous generation wander in the wilderness and die in the desert and not get to go on into the promised land. Do you think there was any rivalry or hatred between the next generation and their forefathers? Maybe. But if there was, it would have been uncalled for - just as it is now uncalled for between the church fathers and we who are of their children who have crossed over the Jordan that Jesus presented between building His church upon a man or by the spirit of God.

So, yes, there has been a departure between those who follow the sons of men and those who follow the spirit of God - and rightly so. But we are family...and we do not hate our forefathers, not Israel, and not the Catholics.

Some Catholics* are easier to LIKE than others..... same is true for all brothers and sisters in Christ, lol


* Catholic = a person officially and formally registered in a parish owned and operated by the RCC.

 

[Triumph1300]

@BreadOfLife is my best friend here. :cool: We don't agree on everything but that's ok, I like the dude.

I have not posted on this forum for awhile.
Just been watching (and shaking my head a lot).

Let me say this:
He is certainly more consistent in his postings than most of his Protestant opponents.
Some of his Catholic buddies....well.....I rather keep that for myself.

I tried to dislike him but I can't. :)

 

[Helen]

I have not posted on this forum for awhile.
Just been watching (and shaking my head a lot).

Let me say this:
He is certainly more consistent in his postings than most of his Protestant opponents.
Some of his Catholic buddies....well.....I rather keep that for myself.

I tried to dislike him but I can't. :)

Agree, I admire his strength and tenacity.
He has never been rude or abrasive when he has responded to me.

 

[LC627]

I have not posted on this forum for awhile.
Just been watching (and shaking my head a lot).

Let me say this:
He is certainly more consistent in his postings than most of his Protestant opponents.
Some of his Catholic buddies....well.....I rather keep that for myself.

I tried to dislike him but I can't. :)

A good conversation is always good. It helps us grow. As I’ve heard “ByGrace” say, I don’t like putting God in a box, and that’s a outlook to have. Clearly God’s ways are higher than anything we can know in every full detail. I believe it’s good that we leave room to grow. I’m young, I have experienced things in life but there is always more to experience/live/learn as life and ministry continue. Hopefully we all continue to grow in our faith and in love.