I see it as a spiritual sense. We were among the spiritually dead, that is, no connection to God, and now we are alive, joined to God, will living among the rest of the dead ones.
Much love!
Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Much love!
ScottA
Well-Known Member
God spoke all the world and universe into existence.
Why then does anyone not believe He can make two men appear, whether in the flesh or in the spirit? Either is a lack of faith in God. Our response should be, "Of course, one or the other is true--for He is God!"
The greater question then, is why does it matter what form they appeared in--why is that even an issue? Should we not rather be asking: If Moses and Elijah lived at different times in history, but then appeared, even briefly, to live also at the time of Christ--what does that say about time?
I tell you--it defines it--and it is the answer to the whole matter!
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I think the evidence has been amply provided….you are reading into that phrase way more than was ever intended by its Jewish writers. I believe that people tend to forget that Jewish belief was not about immortal souls traveling in time between realms, but “raised from the dead” was a phrase that spoke to Jews about resurrection, which has nothing to do with spirits leaving the body at death.
To a Jew, resurrection was a return, or restoration of the life that was lost in death. Jesus showed his disciples what resurrection meant. (John 11:11-4) When he resurrected Lazarus, Jesus said he was “sleeping”. His sister expressed her belief in the resurrection by saying…..”I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day”. (John 11:24) As a disciple of Jesus, she knew what he taught about death…..and it was not the pagan belief in an immortal soul.
“The last day” is when Messiah rules in his kingdom and all the dead are raised back to life.
John 5:28-29…
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
Jesus uses a different word here…not grave (hades) but “mnēmeion” which Strongs defines as….
- any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing
- a memorial, monument, specifically, a sepulchral monument
- a sepulchre, a tomb.
So this is not “hades” which is “the abode of the dead”, (not hell) but specific burial places where the dead are identified individually. Because of their belief in resurrection, the Jews were careful to identify the deceased and to also include their lineage. (They still are) Jesus calls these individuals out of those tombs and renders judgment as to whether these ones were faithful Christians until their death, or were part of the world of former times when the God of Israel was unknown to those outside the Middle East. These will enter a period of judgment where they have an opportunity to hear about the true God and respond to the education.
Those who were not considered worthy of a decent burial (executed criminals and blatant lawbreakers) their bodies were often thrown into the city’s garbage dump for disposal. “Gehenna” became the symbol of eternal death, in that these ones were not considered worthy of a resurrection either.
The RCC ran away with many ideas that Christ never taught, when all they had to do was apply what the Jews were taught about death, because Jesus was Jewish….not Catholic.
So without the convoluted teachings of the Roman Catholic church, the Bible teaches that the dead are actually dead, and that resurrection is what we can expect to restore our lives….either in heaven as spirit beings for the elect, (of God’s choosing) who will rule with Christ in his kingdom (Rev 20:6)…..or a return to life in the flesh for those who will be the subjects of that kingdom. (Rev 21:2-4)
The phrase you kept repeating doesn’t mean what you are implying for all the reasons stated above….
”As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them,
“Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
You see…”raised from the dead” simply means that a dead person is returned to life from the state of being “dead”. Nothing complicated about that.
It could also be rendered “from among the dead” since those who were resurrected in the Bible were specifically chosen to demonstrate what a resurrection actually was. Can we not just understand this in the context of what the whole Bible teaches about death itself? It is the opposite of life.
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Right.
Corpses plural.
“Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the corpses.”
Acts 2:25-28 NIV
David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[a]
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Agree. Thanks.
The BIG debate here seems to be about the state of the dead.
If one believes that the dead are in a state of unconscious non-existence,
then Moses and Elijah could not have appeared to Jesus and the disciples.
Conversely, if one believes that souls live on in the afterlife...
Why do they call it the afterlife? - LOL
Is there life after life?
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Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
It is as it is written: "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Meaning, that since God "is the same yesterday, today, and forever", those who's spirit is of God are in God...the same as they were, are, and shall ever be in God--no sleep, no purgatory--but "I am."
Sounds like diminishing returns.
Doesn't God receive back all the spirit(s) that he gave?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Seems like a loss, since evil can be corrected. IMHOYes, all but the evil, which then makes for a profit
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, but God has manifest all in persona, namely Satan, but also others, even one third. Which, regarding the dead, means death is defeated in death and destroyed with the elements by fervent heat and with fire.
Just as all are raised up or translated from this form of elements to the spiritual realm of God, all were and are first made manifest from that same spiritual realm of God into this world.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The LOL is that there is no such thing as an afterlife.
Find me that word in any passage of Scripture.
This “afterlife” is a belief that permeates all false religion….for the simple reason that it promotes the first lie that satan ever told….“you surely will not die”….God told Adam that he would die and “return to the dust”…nothing more. (Gen 3:19)
According to Eccl 9:5, 10, “the dead” cannot think, plan, gain knowledge, or be active in any way.
So….what is to debate? A belief that was slipped in by the devil, hooking into man’s desire not to die?
If humans were created to die, then why do we fight to live? Why is death in old age something that is an affront to the elderly, who live in an old body but have the mind of a much younger person? I am one of those….I cannot identify with the image I see in the mirror….
How did satan make a lie into the truth? He works his magic by suggestion…..and since he has had such success with this lie, people are still believing that dead loved ones have contacted them…..but there are no dead loved one to contact anyone……satan’s demons impersonate the dead and perpetuate a lie that people want to believe….that is that we don’t really die…we just go somewhere else (hopefully to heaven…wherever that is) in a different body and wait for all those we love to join us, as we have joined those who have gone before….but does the Bible actually teach this? Or has satan had a lend of all those people who do not know what God’s word says about death?…and really don’t want to know….
Is there active life as a result of some shadowy spirit figure leaving the body at death to go somewhere else? The Bible answers NO!
Jesus taught and demonstrated, resurrection……not immortality of the soul. The soul is completely mortal….and it dies. (Ezek 18:4)
The “spirit” that “returns to God” is “the breath of life” that God originally gave to Adam to make him a “living soul”. (Gen 2:7) Upon their resurrection, the majority of people will be given back the “breath of life” to continue living as they were before, on earth, reunited with their families as God first intended that human life was to be everlasting….death was the result of sin and therefore it is an “enemy” of mankind.
Those resurrected to heaven will not need the breath of life as it pertains only to mortals. They will be immortal spirit beings, given a completely new birth.…”born again”.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
What about them? The past is not past and the future is not future with God. But the translation of what is spirit in God made manifest into this world, is in need of translation also: Time is to eternity as flesh is to spirit. The details of which under confusion are often difficult to understand. But that heaven and that lake of fire that are written--they are both in God, the one glorified, the other consumed, death unto death and life unto life. In other words, "For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away" (Matthew 13:12). Such is the translation and the yield of the harvest.
Does this make God a likeable, or an unlikable character?
The plan for humankind is destroy the vast majority?
For what purpose? To what end? A worthwhile endeavor?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
No that is not the case. God cleans His own house by removing all, sweeping, then returning what is good, and destroying/translating by the fire of His spirit what is evil into good--with a consuming and cleansing fire, and gives it to those who love Him. The evil is not a vast majority, but only a third. Which He does as a blessing, that He should not be alone, but glorified.
How did you arrive at that percentage?
Don't the wide and narrow gate indicate otherwise?
How many is a third of countless billions of souls?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
The equation can seem rather convoluted: A third is the number that Satan drew down with him when he fell. The few who find the narrow gate are a third of the fallen. For which it is written:
One-third of you shall die of the pestilence, and be consumed with famine in your midst; and one-third shall fall by the sword all around you; and I will scatter another third to all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
The third I was referring to are those scattered to all the winds--which is to say, they return to God, meaning: spirit...from which those who are God's by salvation "more will be given" (Matthew 13:12).
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