Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[charity]

Compare. Two out of three?

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone
what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Mark 9:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell
anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

Thank you, @St.SteVen,

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
"Tell the vision (G3705) to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."
(Mat 17:9)

G3705 = A spectacle, vision or supernatural revelation, used 12 times in the Bible, translated 'vision' 11 times, and 'sight' once.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[St. SteVen]

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
"Tell the vision (G3705) to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."
(Mat 17:9)

G3705 = A spectacle, vision or supernatural revelation, used 12 times in the Bible, translated 'vision' 11 times, and 'sight' once.

Interestingly, Mark 9:9 uses horaó. Definition below.
But the NIV does not use the word vision in the English translation.
There must be a story there. Certainly all the contextual evidence points to an actual event. IMHO
Especially Peter's offer to build three shelters.

​

◄ 3708. horaó ►​

​

Strong's Lexicon horaó: To see, perceive, attend to Original Word: ὁράω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: horaó Pronunciation: ho-rah'-o Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o) Definition: To see, perceive, attend to Meaning: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.​

[

 

[amigo de christo]

WatchTower myths!

Jesus' TRUTH:

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!

My advice , heed not a word one outta the lips of the watch tower
nor the lips of the vatican and muchall of the protestant realm itself .

 

[amigo de christo]

Satan has not really desired the death of humanity…..or he would never achieve his aim to be the god and ruler of this world. He doesn’t care that humans die as a result of his lies, because he and his minions are always out there recruiting replacements.

Yes, and right away God implemented a rescue mission so that Satan’s plans would be undone….but his battle with the devil is fought in universal time, not in earth time…..which is the reason why it seems to be taking so longer to achieve the desired result.

Yes, “PERISH”….to perish means to “destroy something utterly”. “Destroy” is not torture….it’s simply the death penalty, which is what Adam received. No mention was made to him about heaven or hell….just death and a return to the dust.

John 10:28….
”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

“Destroy” is again the operative word. Body and soul are “destroyed” in Gehenna, erroneously translated as “hell”.

There is no “damnation” ever stated in the Bible.
There was a sentence when one was convicted of a crime under Gods law, but the penalty was always in line with the severity of the crime. Sin is inborn in us, so for God to punish us for something that is not our fault, is hardly fair. Isn’t this why Jesus came to make forgiveness possible?


Yes, the sheep do hear the voice of the shepherd….but there are lots of false shepherds out there impersonating the real shepherd…..and they like what they hear, and don’t want to listen.

“The lake of fire” is also called “the second death”…..so what do you think this “lake of fire” is? A torture chamber for the wicked? Is that what God does to his opposers? Or is it a very large recepticle where the wicked sleep, without ever seeing life again? Does Gods justice demand more?


Thats it…learn the truth as taught by Jesus Christ…..stick to what he said and to what he taught his apostles…and you can’t go wrong.

Had folks stuck to your last sentence they had never sat under the RCC
watchtower , mormon or scores of other places within even the prostant realm .
So do take your own advice now . STICK to what JESUS taught and not rather what the watch tower says HE taught .
same goes for many other denominations and those trapped in them .

 

[charity]

Interestingly, Mark 9:9 uses horaó. Definition below.
But the NIV does not use the word vision in the English translation.
There must be a story there. Certainly all the contextual evidence points to an actual event. IMHO
Especially Peter's offer to build three shelters.

​

◄ 3708. horaó ►​

​

Strong's Lexicon horaó: To see, perceive, attend to Original Word: ὁράω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: horaó Pronunciation: ho-rah'-o Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o) Definition: To see, perceive, attend to Meaning: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.​

Hello @St.SteVen,

Oh yes, it was an actual event. Peter refers to it himself in his epistle doesn't he? The reality of what Peter witnessed and responded to by offering to build three shelters, However, I believe that we need to consider what the Lord Jesus said in relation to this incident, prior to it taking place, which shows the 'what' and 'why?':-

'For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to His works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.'
(Mat 16:27-28)

* Immediately following this the Lord chose Peter, James and John to witness His second advent, this was a prophetic vision, which showed the Lord Jesus transfigured before them, into the form that He will be manifested in at that time. They saw the Son of man coming in His kingdom, as the Lord Jesus said. So it had to have been in vision form for it was a future event being fore-shown to them.

'And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother,
and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them:
and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here:
if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles;
one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him.
And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(Mat 17:1-9)

* This is not new to the record of Scripture for the Old Testament prophets experienced this form of vision, and it is recorded for our learning.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

@St.SteVen

'For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
For He received from God the Father honour and glory,
when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory,
This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,
as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'
(2Pet. 1:16-21)

Praise God!

 

[Jack]

My advice , heed not a word one outta the lips of the watch tower
nor the lips of the vatican and muchall of the protestant realm itself .

That's very good advice!

 

[Aunty Jane]

My advice , heed not a word one outta the lips of the watch tower
nor the lips of the vatican and muchall of the protestant realm itself .

Can we get specific here Amigo?
In my own search for God, I investigated other denominations within Christendom, Eastern religions, Mormonism, and even evolution….but did not find the God I knew could answer all my questions.

Only my encounter with Jehovah’s Witnesses resonated with me. Not only did they answer my many questions, but they did so out of the Bible itself….my own KJV.

So tell me please what specific issues do you have with the teachings that JW’s follow collectively and cohesively all over the world?
Would the devil ever allow God’s true servants to enjoy ‘good press’?

What did Jesus say?
John 15:18-21…
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

Let me ask you, as one who is so vocal against false Christianity…..with whom do you yourself worship?

In the first century, when Jesus walked the earth, there were only Jews and gentiles…..those who followed Jesus, witnessed only to their fellow Jews, most of whom rejected this sect as heretics. But within a short space of time they had somewhere to direct the ones who accepted what Jesus taught.

His disciples met together to learn more and many flocked to hear Jesus in his public ministry. They heard his message and it resonated with them…..but not with the majority who stayed firmly with the teachings of their religious leaders, in the faith they had been raised with. These learned to hate the Christians, whom they saw as subverting their faith….but in reality it was the religious leaders themselves who had slowly, over hundreds of years of apostasy, subverted the Jewish faith, leading Jesus to condemn those religious leaders to “Gehenna”. (Matt 23:33)

Only when a thorough witness had been given to those Jews, and Jesus had fulfilled his mission, was the way later opened for gentiles to become Christ’s followers. By then congregations had developed in various areas and people met in the homes of fellow Christians until they outgrew those venues and needed larger premesis. The congregations were called “the church” or “ecclesia” (meaning “assembly” or “gathering”) but it was not the buildings.

Paul said in Hebrews 10:24-25…
”And let us consider one another to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.”

Can you tell me Amigo…with whom do you meet together regularly for worship so as “to incite to love and fine works” as Paul admonished?

In the divided religious climate of Jesus‘ day, there was somewhere to send those who responded to his teachings and wanted to become his disciples…..so what about today, when “the day” for God’s judgment is drawing ever closer? Where do you direct people to go whilst you warn of the ever present danger of false worship?…and even worse…false Christianity?

How do you find the diamond in a virtual pile of broken glass?

Be specific in your definition of what a Christian must believe, as opposed to what false Christians believe….let’s compare notes….with Scripture.

 

[Berean]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision. Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage. The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead. Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision. Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???


Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

First of all, Jesus was resurrected, so he was alive again. The Old Testament saints were all still in their graves. Remember
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=eee2...ibGUgYW5kIHRhbGtpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgZGVhZA&ntb=1
The Bible forbids the people of God from attempting to talk to the dead. The Old Testament teaches that believers are defiled by their attempts at communicating with the dead, a practice that is detestable to God. The New Testament instructs believers to seek guidance from God and his Spirit only. The Bible reveals that psychic experiences are real but demonic, and that deceiving sprits are counterfeits for the true Spirit of God. (see Lev. 19:31; 1 Chr. 10:13, 14; Ecc 5:9; Matt 24:24)

This was a vision. Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus. Jesus was in the middle. Moses (representing the Old Testament Saints) was on one side, and Elijah (representing the Church, the New Testament Saints) was on the other side.. Moses pictured the faithful who lived before Christ, and Elijah pictured the “more than conquerors” who live after Christ, with Jesus being the “centerpiece,” as it were (Rom. 8:37).

What were Jesus, Moses, and Elijah talking about in this vision? They spoke about Jesus’ death, “his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem” (see Luke 9:31). Earlier Jesus had been discussing this very subject with his disciples (Matt. 16:21). Of course at the time of the vision, Peter, James, and John did not realize what Moses and Elijah represented. Moses looked forward to the death of Jesus at Calvary, and Elijah looks back to that event. Moses forsook the wealth of Egypt because he looked ahead to Christ and the Kingdom Age, whereas the Church class in the present age look back to Christ. Inferentially, the death of the Christ is included in the vision. If the Master had to have a cross, then so do the disciples who follow him (Matt. 16:24).

Even though Jesus spoke sternly to Peter (Matt. 16:23), laid the groundwork for his crucifixion, provided many details, and gave the transfiguration vision to the three apostles, the disciples were surprised when the Crucifixion actually took place. Nevertheless, these facts, experiences, and words entered into their minds like a computer. Information must at least be received— even if it is not acted upon or fully appreciated at the time—so that later the Holy Spirit can energize and call it to remembrance.

Because Jesus could perform so many wonderful miracles, including the raising of the dead, the disciples and others thought that he could not be put to death under such humiliating circumstances, but they—and we—have to be educated to God’s way of thinking. God’s plan was something new; we are a New Creation. That is why Peter wrote in his epistle, “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” (1 Pet. 4:12). Earlier, at Jesus’ crucifixion, Peter did think the trial was strange, but he learned his lesson.

 

[TheHC]

My advice , heed not a word one outta the lips of the watch tower
nor the lips of the vatican and muchall of the protestant realm itself .

So…. You advocate not going to any church, then?

 

[TheHC]

What is resurrected?

People, who’ve died. (Revelation 20:13,14 reveals that “the sea”, “death”, & “Hades/Hell”, “gave up those dead in them.”)
(Yes, Hell, too.) This is the Resurrection spoken of here…. the second / later resurrection, for the vast majority of mankind.

And from where?

well, I think I just kind of answered that. Other than to say, that hell is simply where people go, referred to as the common grave of mankind, due to our death resulting from sin and imperfection. That’s why Ecclesiastes 9:10 indicates that
everybody goes there.

What is the realm of the dead? (where you are going)

See above. Read these Scriptures in a Catholic Douay version. (BibleHub.com has one.) They translate Sheol as Hell, in many places. At Genesis 37:35, righteous Jacob says he’s going to Hell.

@Lambano


Take care, y’all

 

[Jack]

My advice , heed not a word one outta the lips of the watch tower
nor the lips of the vatican and muchall of the protestant realm itself .

A HUGE amen!

 

[St. SteVen]

... "the dead" is a place.

1. Matthew 17:9
   As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
   
   
2. Matthew 27:64
   So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”
   
   
3. Mark 6:14
   

   John the Baptist Beheaded​

   King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
   
   
4. Mark 6:16
   But when Herod heard this, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised from the dead!”
   
   
5. Luke 9:7
   Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead,
   
   
6. John 2:22
   After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
   I
7. John 12:1
   

   Jesus Anointed at Bethany​

   Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.
   
   
8. John 12:9
   Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.
   
   
9. John 12:17
   Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word.
   
   
10. John 21:14
    This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
    
    
11. Acts 2:24
    But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
    
    
12. Acts 3:15
    You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
    
    
13. Acts 4:10
    then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
    
    
14. Acts 5:30
    The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.
    
    
15. Acts 10:40
    but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.
    
    
16. Acts 13:30
    But God raised him from the dead,
    
    
17. Acts 13:34
    God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’
    
    
18. Acts 13:37
    But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
    
    
19. Acts 20:7
    

    Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas​

    On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
    
    
20. Romans 4:24
    but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
    
    
21. Romans 6:4
    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    
    
22. Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
    
    
23. Romans 7:4
    So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
    
    
24. Romans 8:11
    And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
    
    
25. Romans 10:9
    If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    
    
    
26. 1 Corinthians 6:14
    By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
    
    
    1 Corinthians 15:12
    

    The Resurrection of the Dead​

    But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    
    • 1 Corinthians 15:15
      More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
      
      
    • 1 Corinthians 15:20
      But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
      
      
    • 2 Corinthians 4:14
      because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.
      
      
    • Galatians 1:1
      Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
      
      
    • Ephesians 1:20
      he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
      
      
    • Colossians 2:12
      having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
      
      
    • 1 Thessalonians 1:10
      and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
      
      
    • 2 Timothy 2:8
      Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
      
      
    • 1 Peter 1:21
      Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
      
      [

 

[St. SteVen]

Right in front of us this whole time. How did we miss it?

Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them,
“Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Mark 9:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone
what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

... "the dead" is a place.

1. Matthew 17:9
   As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Nekros (the dead) most literally means corpses.

When King Jimmy had his translation done, they made some PG-13 decisions. It could have been much more colorful.

A friend used to say, "if you think about it long enough, every movie is a zombie movie." Apparently, that also applies to the Bible.

 

[marks]

Nekros (the dead) most literally means corpses.

"dead ones"

Certainly not a "place".

Same as in:

Romans 6:13 KJV
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"Yield yourselves to God, as those who are alive from among the dead ones"

Speaking of zombie movies, all humanity having died in Adam remains dead. We who have been made alive in Christ, we are alive out from among the dead ones.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

"dead ones"

Certainly not a "place".

Same as in:

Romans 6:13 KJV
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"Yield yourselves to God, as those who are alive from among the dead ones"

Speaking of zombie movies, all humanity having died in Adam remains dead. We who have been made alive in Christ, we are alive out from among the dead ones.

Much love!

A lot depends on context. The Bible uses "dead" in a figurative sense as well as the literal one.

Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Had folks stuck to your last sentence they had never sat under the RCC
watchtower , mormon or scores of other places within even the prostant realm .
So do take your own advice now . STICK to what JESUS taught and not rather what the watch tower says HE taught .
same goes for many other denominations and those trapped in them .

@amigo de christo

 

[marks]

A lot depends on context. The Bible uses "dead" in a figurative sense as well as the literal one.

Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

As they say, context is king. This passage I think shows both examples, the figurative dead burying the literal dead.

In the Romans 5 reference, to me this highlights the fundamental difference between those in Christ and those not, we are alive from among the dead ones, therefore, our lives should be completely different.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

As they say, context is king. This passage I think shows both examples, the figurative dead burying the literal dead.

In the Romans 5 reference, to me this highlights the fundamental difference between those in Christ and those not, we are alive from among the dead ones, therefore, our lives should be completely different.

Much love!

Agreed. I think Romans 5 uses the metaphorical sense of dead - where one is outside the covenant.