Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[Aunty Jane]

Moses represented those who slept before the Resurrection and Elijah represented those who had not tasted death or slept in Grave.an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah.

If we go by the beliefs of the ones to whom the Hebrew Scriptures were written, then there is no dilemma.
Since the dead are in an unconscious state (Eccl 9:5, 10) until their resurrection, (not Christ’s resurrection) so all the pre-Christian servants of God looked forward to the rule of Messiah’s kingdom on earth. This is what they expected when they died, and this is what they will awaken to.

2 Kings 2: 1-8). Fire horse: Elijah was taken by fire horse and went up to heaven (2 Kings 2: 9-12).

Elijah did not die, but was simply relocated (albeit in spectacular fashion) so that he would not be murdered.
King Ahab had continued the calf worship established by Jeroboam, but worse, he had married Jezebel the daughter of the Sidonian king Ethbaal. Under her influence, Ahab added greatly to his sins beyond all Israel’s previous kings by introducing Baal worship on a grand scale. Baal priests and prophets multiplied, and corruption reached an extreme state. Jezebel’s hatred of Jehovah caused persecution and slaughter of his prophets; they were driven into hiding in caves. (1Kings 16:30-33; 18:13)

After Elijah’ famous encounter with the Baal prophets, resulting in their deaths, Jezebel was furious and vowed to have Elijah put to death, so he flees and in the wilderness…..alone and afraid, he prays to die.

Jehovah corrects Elijah’s thought that he is the lone worshiper of the true God in Israel by showing that there are 7,000 who have not bowed to Baal. He sends Elijah back to his assignment, naming three persons who are to be anointed, or commissioned, to do a work for Jehovah: Hazael as king over Syria, Jehu as king over Israel, and his own successor Elisha. (1 Kings 19:1-18)
Finding Elisha plowing a field, Elijah throws his official garment over him, indicating his appointing, or anointing. Elisha follows Elijah closely from that time on as his attendant.

Fast forward a number of years, and the time comes when Elijah must transfer the mantle of this prophetic office to Elisha, who has now been well trained.
Elisha is thereafter rewarded for his faithfulness by seeing a fiery war chariot and fiery horses and Elijah “ascending in a windstorm to the heavens”.
Elisha takes up Elijah’s official garment that had fallen off him, and “two parts” (like a firstborn son’s portion) in Elijah’s spirit, a spirit of courage and of being “absolutely jealous for Jehovah the God of armies,” comes upon him.

But Elijah does not die, and is not taken to “heaven“ (but was transferred in “the heavens”…the air, the sky) and relocated to a new assignment. This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master.….and a number of years after his ascension in the windstorm, Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chron 21:12-15)

No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

But what I don't quite understand is whether John the Baptist is Elijah or whether John the Baptist represents a prophet like Elijah.

John B did the same work as Elijah, preparing the way for the one who came after him….getting people to acknowledge their sins and repent in order to receive the Messiah.

Was the Transfiguration of Jesus a vision?
It is between a vision and Real Realistic.
It's hard to explain this state.

Not hard really if there is only one truth. The transfiguration was a foregleam of the magnificence of earth’s newly appointed king, fulfilling a promise he made to them, just days earlier.

When Jesus returned to heaven 40 days after his resurrection, he presented the value of his sacrifice to his God and Father, awaiting the time when he would return to bring his faithful anointed disciples “home”.
As David prophesied…..in Psalm 110:1-2…

”Jehovah declared to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:

“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

When Jesus would begin his reign as king, it would be after a period of waiting for certain things to take place on earth, according to God’s will…..only then would begin to rule “in the midst of his enemies”.

We are living in that time period right now. Enemies of the King and his incoming kingdom are showing themselves for who they are, and will marshal their forces against Christ’s seemingly defenseless disciples in an effort to wipe them out, but they will be confronted with an angelic army whose power will make these enemies feel like insects. They will be crushed out of existence to make way for the best rulership human beings have ever had. (Daniel 2:44)

Jesus prayed in the Lord’s Prayer…..”Thy KINGDOM COME, thy will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN”
Finally faithful ones will experience the fulfillment of that prayer.

 

[soberxp]

If we go by the beliefs of the ones to whom the Hebrew Scriptures were written, then there is no dilemma.
Since the dead are in an unconscious state (Eccl 9:5, 10) until their resurrection, (not Christ’s resurrection) so all the pre-Christian servants of God looked forward to the rule of Messiah’s kingdom on earth. This is what they expected when they died, and this is what they will awaken to.


Elijah did not die, but was simply relocated (albeit in spectacular fashion) so that he would not be murdered.
King Ahab had continued the calf worship established by Jeroboam, but worse, he had married Jezebel the daughter of the Sidonian king Ethbaal. Under her influence, Ahab added greatly to his sins beyond all Israel’s previous kings by introducing Baal worship on a grand scale. Baal priests and prophets multiplied, and corruption reached an extreme state. Jezebel’s hatred of Jehovah caused persecution and slaughter of his prophets; they were driven into hiding in caves. (1Kings 16:30-33; 18:13)

After Elijah’ famous encounter with the Baal prophets, resulting in their deaths, Jezebel was furious and vowed to have Elijah put to death, so he flees and in the wilderness…..alone and afraid, he prays to die.

Jehovah corrects Elijah’s thought that he is the lone worshiper of the true God in Israel by showing that there are 7,000 who have not bowed to Baal. He sends Elijah back to his assignment, naming three persons who are to be anointed, or commissioned, to do a work for Jehovah: Hazael as king over Syria, Jehu as king over Israel, and his own successor Elisha. (1 Kings 19:1-18)
Finding Elisha plowing a field, Elijah throws his official garment over him, indicating his appointing, or anointing. Elisha follows Elijah closely from that time on as his attendant.

Fast forward a number of years, and the time comes when Elijah must transfer the mantle of this prophetic office to Elisha, who has now been well trained.
Elisha is thereafter rewarded for his faithfulness by seeing a fiery war chariot and fiery horses and Elijah “ascending in a windstorm to the heavens”.
Elisha takes up Elijah’s official garment that had fallen off him, and “two parts” (like a firstborn son’s portion) in Elijah’s spirit, a spirit of courage and of being “absolutely jealous for Jehovah the God of armies,” comes upon him.

But Elijah does not die, and is not taken to “heaven“ (but was transferred in “the heavens”…the air, the sky) and relocated to a new assignment. This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master.….and a number of years after his ascension in the windstorm, Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chron 21:12-15)

No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

John B did the same work as Elijah, preparing the way for the one who came after him….getting people to acknowledge their sins and repent in order to receive the Messiah.

Not hard really if there is only one truth. The transfiguration was a foregleam of the magnificence of earth’s newly appointed king, fulfilling a promise he made to them, just days earlier.

When Jesus returned to heaven 40 days after his resurrection, he presented the value of his sacrifice to his God and Father, awaiting the time when he would return to bring his faithful anointed disciples “home”.
As David prophesied…..in Psalm 110:1-2…

”Jehovah declared to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:

“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

When Jesus would begin his reign as king, it would be after a period of waiting for certain things to take place on earth, according to God’s will…..only then would begin to rule “in the midst of his enemies”.

We are living in that time period right now. Enemies of the King and his incoming kingdom are showing themselves for who they are, and will marshal their forces against Christ’s seemingly defenseless disciples in an effort to wipe them out, but they will be confronted with an angelic army whose power will make these enemies feel like insects. They will be crushed out of existence to make way for the best rulership human beings have ever had. (Daniel 2:44)

Jesus prayed in the Lord’s Prayer…..”Thy KINGDOM COME, thy will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN”
Finally faithful ones will experience the fulfillment of that prayer.

Elijah's ascension symbolized the future ascension of Jesus, so he really did not experience death as us.

 

[quietthinker]

Moses represented those who slept before the Resurrection and Elijah represented those who had not tasted death or slept in Grave.an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah.

But what I don't quite understand is whether John the Baptist is Elijah or whether John the Baptist represents a prophet like Elijah.

Was the Transfiguration of Jesus a vision?
It is between a vision and Real Realistic.
It's hard to explain this state.

John was a figure of Elijah.....he preached reform. It was in this sense that Jesus refers to John

 

[Aunty Jane]

Elijah's ascension symbolized the future ascension of Jesus, so he really did not experience death as us.

The Scriptures plainly show that Elijah did not die…nor was his transfer from one part of the earth to another, a symbol of anything to do with Jesus. Only John the Baptist is said to symbolize the work of Elijah.

If we look up the Hebrew word translated “heavens” we will see that it is not just speaking about the “heaven” where God resides. (Matt 6:9)

This same Hebrew word “šāmayim” is used in Genesis which is talking about the creation of the material Universe, which included our Earth. The “heaven” where God and his Angels are located were already in existence long before the Earth was created.

Gen 1:20….
“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” H8064

Gen 1:26
“Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image,according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fishof the sea and over the birds of the sky H8064 and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creepingthing that creeps on the earth.”

Gen 1:28…
“God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky H8064and over every living thing that [fn]moves on the earth.”

At 1 Kings 8:27 Solomon wrote…..after constructing his Temple….
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven H8064 and the highest H8064 heaven H8064 cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

This too is talking about the physical heavens….not the spiritual realm where spirit beings reside.
It is the same word.
The primary definition of this word according to Strongs Concordance, is….

1. visible heavens, sky
   1. as abode of the stars
   2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc

So Elijah went into the “sky”…into the “heavens” where the birds fly…..

 

[soberxp]

The Scriptures plainly show that Elijah did not die…nor was his transfer from one part of the earth to another, a symbol of anything to do with Jesus. Only John the Baptist is said to symbolize the work of Elijah.

If we look up the Hebrew word translated “heavens” we will see that it is not just speaking about the “heaven” where God resides. (Matt 6:9)

This same Hebrew word “šāmayim” is used in Genesis which is talking about the creation of the material Universe, which included our Earth. The “heaven” where God and his Angels are located were already in existence long before the Earth was created.

Gen 1:20….
“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” H8064

Gen 1:26
“Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image,according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fishof the sea and over the birds of the sky H8064 and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creepingthing that creeps on the earth.”

Gen 1:28…
“God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky H8064and over every living thing that [fn]moves on the earth.”

At 1 Kings 8:27 Solomon wrote…..after constructing his Temple….
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven H8064 and the highest H8064 heaven H8064 cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

This too is talking about the physical heavens….not the spiritual realm where spirit beings reside.
It is the same word.
The primary definition of this word according to Strongs Concordance, is….

1. visible heavens, sky
   1. as abode of the stars
   2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc

So Elijah went into the “sky”…into the “heavens” where the birds fly…..

Not flying in the sky like a bird, because Jesus went to heaven after his resurrection, so Elijah, like Jesus, could not have had two results. Their results are consistent.

When Jesus came back to his disciples after his resurrection, Elijah could come back too and write letter to others. They can travel freely between heaven and earth.

And they exist beyond the timeline, there is no which comes first.It's just that for us, we have to use Jesus as a benchmark.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not flying in the sky like a bird, because Jesus went to heaven after his resurrection, so Elijah, like Jesus, could not have had two results. Their results are consistent.

Yes they are consistent…..because Jesus was in his tomb for three days before God resurrected him. He was not a spirit for those three days travelling between realms..…he was dead. He was confined in the heart of the earth as Jonah was confined in the belly of the whale. (Matt 12:40)
Jesus was “dead” in the Jewish definition of the word….not in Christendom’s definition.

After three days, he was raised as a spirit (1 Peter 3:18) in order to return “to where he was before” his earthly mission. (John 6:62) Where was he before? John 1:1…”In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God”…

He could materialize human form like other spirit creatures have done, whilst conveying God’s directions to them, but Jesus often “appeared“ to his disciples in bodies they did not recognize.
On one occasion, he simply vanished right before their eyes. He dematerialized. (Luke 24:30-31)

When Jesus came back to his disciples after his resurrection, Elijah could come back too and write letter to others. They can travel freely between heaven and earth.

Jesus did not “come back for his disciples” until he was to due to return, according to the apostle Paul….that was in the future.
In 1 Thess 4:13-18, he said….
“Moreover brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.”

Paul is stating that the resurrection of the elect (chosen ones) does not occur until Christ’s return…..those of the elect who survive until his return, will not be resurrected before those who are still “sleeping in death”. And those alive when he returns will no longer have to sleep in death at all, but will be raised “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” to join their Lord in the atmosphere above the earth. (the air…”aēr”)

And they exist beyond the timeline, there is no which comes first.It's just that for us, we have to use Jesus as a benchmark.

Well, the Scriptures teach that there is a timeline….otherwise the word “first” would have no meaning.

Jesus is the first human to die in human flesh and to be resurrected in a spirit body….only his elect will experience this resurrection to heaven….they will rule redeemed mankind on earth, where God put the human race in the first place. (Rev 21: 2-4)
We are designed for life on earth, not heaven. If God had wanted us in heaven he would have put us there in the beginning. But he already had a big family there before the universe was created.

Not all Christians are going to heaven….and those who do not have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) are not one bit worried about that. Paradise on earth is what we had in the beginning, and that is what God will give us back in the end….(Isa 55:11)
I for one am looking forward to that.

 

[soberxp]

Yes they are consistent…..because Jesus was in his tomb for three days before God resurrected him. He was not a spirit for those three days travelling between realms..…he was dead. He was confined in the heart of the earth as Jonah was confined in the belly of the whale. (Matt 12:40)
Jesus was “dead” in the Jewish definition of the word….not in Christendom’s definition.

After three days, he was raised as a spirit (1 Peter 3:18) in order to return “to where he was before” his earthly mission. (John 6:62) Where was he before? John 1:1…”In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God”…

He could materialize human form like other spirit creatures have done, whilst conveying God’s directions to them, but Jesus often “appeared“ to his disciples in bodies they did not recognize.
On one occasion, he simply vanished right before their eyes. He dematerialized. (Luke 24:30-31)

Jesus did not “come back for his disciples” until he was to due to return, according to the apostle Paul….that was in the future.
In 1 Thess 4:13-18, he said….
“Moreover brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.”

Paul is stating that the resurrection of the elect (chosen ones) does not occur until Christ’s return…..those of the elect who survive until his return, will not be resurrected before those who are still “sleeping in death”. And those alive when he returns will no longer have to sleep in death at all, but will be raised “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” to join their Lord in the atmosphere above the earth. (the air…”aēr”)

Well, the Scriptures teach that there is a timeline….otherwise the word “first” would have no meaning.

Jesus is the first human to die in human flesh and to be resurrected in a spirit body….only his elect will experience this resurrection to heaven….they will rule redeemed mankind on earth, where God put the human race in the first place. (Rev 21: 2-4)
We are designed for life on earth, not heaven. If God had wanted us in heaven he would have put us there in the beginning. But he already had a big family there before the universe was created.

Not all Christians are going to heaven….and those who do not have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) are not one bit worried about that. Paradise on earth is what we had in the beginning, and that is what God will give us back in the end….(Isa 55:11)
I for one am looking forward to that.

Transfiguration

Luke
24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Did you see that? Jesus has changed.Jesus shifted from one state to another.
and
They were beyond our timeline in heaven,We have to follow the timeline on earth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Transfiguration

Luke
24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

This is not about the transfiguration but about his identity after his resurrection.

His apostles knew that Jesus had died, and now here he was presenting himself to them, not as a spirit but as a human being…and not always in the same body!
Was there something new Scripturally about spirit beings appearing in human form?

What does the Bible tell us about those occasions?
Going back to Daniel’s day in Babylon, Daniel 9:20-21, it says…
”While I was still speaking and praying and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request for favor before Jehovah my God concerning the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was yet speaking in prayer, the man Gaʹbri·el, whom I had previously seen in the vision, came to me when I was extremely weary at about the time of the evening gift offering.”
Gabriel was an angel, but is here described as a “man”…no wings.

Gabriel made another appearance some 500 years later to Mary, to inform her that she would bear the son of God.

In Abraham’s day, three men came to bring news of a son to be born to Abraham and Sarah in their old age….these were three angels, one of whom spoke as Jehovah…..but he was an angelic representative, as John informs us that “no man has ever seen God”. (John 1:18) And no human would survive the encounter as God told Moses…..”no man may see me and yet live”.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Other translations render that verse as saying “Sop clinging to me” because he had not yet ascended to his God and Father and he wanted Mary to go and inform the apostles that he was alive!

Did you see that? Jesus has changed.Jesus shifted from one state to another.
and
They were beyond our timeline in heaven,We have to follow the timeline on earth.

Yes, all through the 40 days that Jesus remained on earth after his resurrection, he changed from spirit to human form, so that often the disciples did not always recognize him, and on a couple of occasions he materialized a body with the wounds of his cruel execution to convince a doubter…..but at other times there was no mention of those wounds.
He was the constant companion of his apostles all through the three and a half years they spent night and day together….now Jesus is not staying with them, but only “appearing” to them.

Reading about what they did to him on that night before his death, we can see that physically, he would have been a mess! He was flogged, not with just a whip but with a flagellum…..a whip of ropes imbedded with sharp pieces of bone to tear at a person’s flesh. Yet Jesus did not appear with the marks of the whip, or the nails, or even the crown of thorns most of the times he appeared to his disciples.…..unless it was to convince the doubter, Thomas.

Don't we have to wonder why?

 

[soberxp]

13

This is not about the transfiguration but about his identity after his resurrection.

His apostles knew that Jesus had died, and now here he was presenting himself to them, not as a spirit but as a human being…and not always in the same body!
Was there something new Scripturally about spirit beings appearing in human form?

What does the Bible tell us about those occasions?
Going back to Daniel’s day in Babylon, Daniel 9:20-21, it says…
”While I was still speaking and praying and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request for favor before Jehovah my God concerning the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was yet speaking in prayer, the man Gaʹbri·el, whom I had previously seen in the vision, came to me when I was extremely weary at about the time of the evening gift offering.”
Gabriel was an angel, but is here described as a “man”…no wings.

Gabriel made another appearance some 500 years later to Mary, to inform her that she would bear the son of God.

In Abraham’s day, three men came to bring news of a son to be born to Abraham and Sarah in their old age….these were three angels, one of whom spoke as Jehovah…..but he was an angelic representative, as John informs us that “no man has ever seen God”. (John 1:18) And no human would survive the encounter as God told Moses…..”no man may see me and yet live”.


Other translations render that verse as saying “Sop clinging to me” because he had not yet ascended to his God and Father and he wanted Mary to go and inform the apostles that he was alive!

Yes, all through the 40 days that Jesus remained on earth after his resurrection, he changed from spirit to human form, so that often the disciples did not always recognize him, and on a couple of occasions he materialized a body with the wounds of his cruel execution to convince a doubter…..but at other times there was no mention of those wounds.
He was the constant companion of his apostles all through the three and a half years they spent night and day together….now Jesus is not staying with them, but only “appearing” to them.

Reading about what they did to him on that night before his death, we can see that physically, he would have been a mess! He was flogged, not with just a whip but with a flagellum…..a whip of ropes imbedded with sharp pieces of bone to tear at a person’s flesh. Yet Jesus did not appear with the marks of the whip, or the nails, or even the crown of thorns most of the times he appeared to his disciples.…..unless it was to convince the doubter, Thomas.

Don't we have to wonder why?

I agree, it is the same point that I trying to tell.

 

[Lambano]

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?​

Who knows? I wasn't there.

 

[Taken]

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?​

Literal appearance.
A vision unto human mens eyes.

The works of God are mysterious and wonderous.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lambano]

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?​

Who knows? I wasn't there.

Although the rules don't seem to be consistently applied across the Bible, general belief in NT times seems to be that when you die, you're dead until God resurrects you. Souls did not have life independent of a body. Or, at least, no existence outside the mind of God. Otherwise, what's the big deal about Resurrection? Especially Jesus's own Resurrection? In fact, you could argue that Resurrection is a bad thing because souls would be better-off in some non-material plane of existence.

So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38​

 

[St. SteVen]

Although the rules don't seem to be consistently applied across the Bible, general belief in NT times seems to be that when you die, you're dead until God resurrects you. Souls did not have life independent of a body. Or, at least, no existence outside the mind of God. Otherwise, what's the big deal about Resurrection? Especially Jesus's own Resurrection? In fact, you could argue that Resurrection is a bad thing because souls would be better-off in some non-material plane of existence.

So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38​

The dead or alive question is interesting. And I always include the spiritual with the physical.
- Physical life/physical death
- Spiritual life/spiritual death

Also interesting to compare the key scripture used for the claim of unconscious non-existence
in the afterlife with a verse five verses later in the same passage.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

[

 

[Lambano]

The dead or alive question is interesting. And I always include the spiritual with the physical.
- Physical life/physical death
- Spiritual life/spiritual death

What does the term "Spiritual life" even mean? A disembodied life form? Is "Spiritual death" when it goes belly up and become a dead disembodied life form? (Would that be a disembodied death form?)

Also interesting to compare the key scripture used for the claim of unconscious non-existence
in the afterlife with a verse five verses later in the same passage.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Those verses do seem to have the same overall worldview. The dead know nothing, they don't work, they don't plan, they do nothing. They're dead.

A contradictory view is in Revelation 6:9-10:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?”

Here the disembodied souls of the dead martyrs can talk, and they seem to be a bit pissed-off and want vengeance.

Then you have the Witch of En-dor (NASB calls her a medium, but for all we know, she was an extra-large) calling up the shade of Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-20. (Kids, don't try this at home.) And the disciples in Acts 12:15 who thought Rhoda had seen Peter's ghost. So, the Jewish people some kind of belief in ghosts and an afterlife and such, but it's vague and inconsistent.

Paul's main goal in life was to attain the Resurrection from the dead. If he believed the soul lives on in a disembodied state, why would this be his goal?

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. - Philippians 3:10-11.​

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The dead or alive question is interesting. And I always include the spiritual with the physical.
- Physical life/physical death
- Spiritual life/spiritual death

What does the term "Spiritual life" even mean? A disembodied life form? Is "Spiritual death" when it goes belly up and become a dead disembodied life form? (Would that be a disembodied death form?)

As I understand it, we are both physical and spiritual beings.
We are born physically alive. And remain so until we experience physical death.
Our physical body is subject to decay in the physical realm. But what becomes of our spiritual body?

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 NIV
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for spiritual life and death...
We are born spiritually dead. When we are reconciled to God, we become spiritually alive.
Does the death to life in this scripture refer to physical death and life? Obviously not.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What becomes of our spiritual body at physical death?
It will be kept until the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Those verses do seem to have the same overall worldview. The dead know nothing, they don't work, they don't plan, they do nothing. They're dead.

Yes, physically dead. The physical realm is everything that happens under the sun.
Where is the realm of the dead? (where you are going) vs 10

[

 

[Lambano]

What becomes of our spiritual body at physical death?

What's a "spiritual body"? What unstated assumptions are you making about it?

 

[Lambano]

Our physical body is subject to decay in the physical realm. But what becomes of our spiritual body?

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 NIV
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Corinthians 15 is all about Resurrection. What is the nature of the Resurrection body? Where does it exist? What properties does it have?

Think it through.

 

[Lambano]

We are born spiritually dead. When we are reconciled to God, we become spiritually alive.

What does "spiritually dead" and "spiritually alive" mean? Physical life as a metaphor for - for what?

 

[St. SteVen]

What's a "spiritual body"? What unstated assumptions are you making about it?

You quoted Revelation in a previous post.
Obviously the "souls underneath the altar" had spiritual bodies.
Otherwise, what's to see?

Revelation 6:9-10:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?”

[