Was Mary sinless?

[Ziggy]

Sin is the transgression of the law.
If God chose Mary to be the vessel for his honor and his purpose, it don't matter if she was a sinner or not.
God cleansed her for his purpose.

Did she break the law?
How could she when it was God who created the circumstances?

Was she born in sin? Every human has a fallen nature that we live in the carnal flesh with.
We are all born into a sinful world. Does that make Mary a sinner?
Again what law did she break by obeying the voice of God himself?

Why did God tell Hosea to marry two prostitutes? Isn't fornication a sin?
But God had a purpose and a reason.
Is it ok when God changes the rules for his own purpose?
Why did God choose Paul, a murderer of christians?
There are so many why's, and the only answer is to trust God and his plan whether we agree with it or not.

Hugs

 

[Nephesh]

No verse teaches that "Mary was born sinless"..
No verse teaches that "Mary ascended upon her death, or 3 days later".


So, what teaches this?

"Catholic Dogma" "Tradition".

See, the thing about a Catholic, is... they elevate "Church Tradition", and "What Catholic Church "fathers", said..... above the Bible.

And like i said previously......no verse says that the Apostles were with Mary when She died.....Yet, "Catholic teaching" says they were there.

And no verse given by any Apostle, says that "mary was sinless" or "mary died a virgin" or "mary ascended to heaven".

Its CATHOLICISM that teaches those concepts.. not the Bible, not the Apostles.

So, its always...>"what our Church taught us to believe" and if its not found in the Bible, then "that's ok with us".

Before I get into all that, I asked you questions. Here they are again:

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth. Agree or disagree?

God says the pure in heart will see Him, and to be pure in heart means to be pure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, how much more Pure would Mary have had to be in order to contain within Her body and spirit God, the Most Holy and Pure One, and be His Mother? To the point of being Second only to God?

 

[Nephesh]

Of course I wouldn’t say the word sibling is in the Bible.

Yet you did when you said, "The verses clearly state that they were Jesus' siblings." However, no, they don't, and to prove it, I told you to quote those verses in its original language, as well as in English, and see for yourself, but you refuse to do that because you know the word "sibling" isn't used. That's why it's weird you assume and assert omething something as true that you know isn't implicitly, much less explicitly, stated.

 

[Truther]

Yet you did when you said, "The verses clearly state that they were Jesus' siblings." However, no, they don't, and to prove it, I told you to quote those verses in its original language, as well as in English, and see for yourself, but you refuse to do that because you know the word "sibling" isn't used. That's why it's weird you assume and assert omething something as true that you know isn't implicitly, much less explicitly, stated.

I was commenting...

Boink.

 

[Nephesh]

I was commenting...

Boink.

You said, "The verses clearly state that they were Jesus' siblings." However, no, they don't, and to prove it, I told you to quote those verses in its original language, as well as in English, and see for yourself, but you refuse to do that because you know the word "sibling" isn't used. That's why it's weird you assume and assert Jesus had siblings despite also claiming to understand that isn't implicitly, much less explicitly, stated.

 

[Ziggy]

If Jesus had earthly brothers then what need was there for Jesus to proclaim to John that Mary was his mother and now John would be her son?
If there were other siblings?
Is it possible Joseph had other children? IDK the bible don't say.

Why John?

Hugs

 

[Nephesh]

Why John?

In brief, Jesus has said to Maria Valtorta its because John was the most like Him in holiness and purity, making him the ideal person to care for His Mother. Refer back to post #190 for those believed to be Jesus's half-brothers were His cousins.

 

[Behold]

and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth. Agree or disagree?

Do i agree with your opinion that God can't create himself wrapped in human flesh, unless there is a sinless flesh container present?

No i dont agree with you., and neither does the Bible.

What you dont understand is that sin is in the blood, but its not in : Jesus THE Christ.
Mary, was not sinless, = having come from Adam, ... so she is a descendant of the fall of Adam, as are all of us.... However, Her Blood didn't run in the Lord's veins.

You might take note, that even tho Jesus was born of a virgin, the bible is careful not to say, of a "sinless virgin".
And unlike the Paganistic Catholic concept that "mary is above all other women"......."Cult of the Virgin" theology...the Bible actually teaches that "Mary is blessed AMONG women".. not above them..

What verse proves that?
This one.. "God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS.. of people, of individuals'.. So, the "mary Cult" elevates their "goddess", in a way that neither God, Jesus, the Apostles, or the Bible, ever did, or ever will.

The "sinless" aspect of Mary's "GRACE", is completely the 100% invention of "the cult of the Virgin".
Its not biblical, its CATHOLIC only theology.

God says the pure in heart will see Him,

But God does not say that only the pure in heart can become a Christian.

If fact.. "Jesus came to save SINNERS".. not the pure in heart.... @Nephesh.

Now, is it possible that a remarkably sanctified believer can receive special Graces from God?
Of course.
St. Bernadette received those, as did St. Francis, but not based on their Mary Worship, but based on their insatiable dedication to the Father and the Son.

So, remember.... = "All have sinned, and there is none righteous, no not one'"".. and that has to include MARY, or otherwise the Bible is lying.

A.) The bible isn't lying....as "ALL have sinned, and there is NONE Righteous".... and that includes Mary, You, Me, The Pope.

"ALL have sinned".

This ALL, is referring to the Linage of Adam : "by one man's SIN, sin entered the world".. but it never entered into JESUS.
Mary is from the Adamic linage.

Final answer.....
= EVERYONE.... born of the Adamic nature....which .includes Mary, and your Pope.....= ."all have sinned, there is none righteous no not one".., and that is the fact of Humanity.
And the solution for all our unrighteousness... is... one at a time, each born again Believer... has become "The Righteousness of God in Christ".. and Mary became that, but she was NOT born as that righteousness, as "ALL have sinned, and there is NONE RIGHTEOUS... NO... NOT., ONE".

 

[Nephesh]

Do i agree with your opinion that God can't create himself wrapped in human flesh, unless there is a sinless flesh container present?

No i dont agree with you

That's not what I asked. You changed my question and now I have to repeat myself. This time, please don't misrepresent me, and answer with "I agree" or "I disagree:"

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth. Do you agree or disagree?

But God does not say that only the pure in heart can become a Christian.

Again, you changed what I said, and and now I have to repeat myself. This time, please don't misrepresent me, and answer with a "yes" or "no."

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to not only see, but contain within Her body and spirit God, the Most Holy and Pure One? Yes or no?

 

[Behold]

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah.

Yes.

"Mary is blessed among women", but not Above them, as the "cult of the virgin".. teaches.

And, "ALL have sinned, and there are none righteous, no not one"

And.. "God is NO respector = of person's"..

Your church IS a respector of persons, and in fact, your "cult of the virgin" is understood to be so, because of your unbiblical devotion to "Mary".

None of the Apostles did this... not one.. and nor does the Bible.

So, when you try to teach your obsessive ..= "devotion to Mary", based on the fact that she birthed God's Son, yet the bible does not give this devotion to Mary, through any of the Apostles.
See the issue?
And in Fact, when Jesus was on the Cross, He never referred to Mary as His Mother.
He called her "WOMAN"....

Read it.

And before He died... He was visiting a group, and His mother and other sons came to see Jesus, and Jesus said...

47 Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48 Jesus replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and MOTHER.”

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to be pure in thought, word, and deed.

But you're not.
So be careful with your self evaluation, or you'll have to see your priest and "confess".., and would that be a mortal or venial that you might just commit, next.. @Nephesh
So take a step back....
Rethink your position.


And yes i know you are going to now go and insert your head into some "Catholic Mary Stuff", so that you can come back and try to prove that Your Devotion to Mary is "bible".
Its not.
Its strictly the domain, of the "CULT of the Virgin", and that was the title of your "church" before it was rebranded later on, as "Catholic.

 

[Nephesh]

Now, is it possible that a remarkably sanctified believer can receive special Graces from God?
Of course. St. Bernadette received those, as did St. Francis..

Mary was granted the greatest Grace of all, by containing within Her body and spirit God Himself, the most Holy and Pure One, and was chosen as His Mother. Have you contemplated the reasons for why?

Yes.

So, you agree with the part where I said Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. However, you still have to agree or disagree with the rest of what I said (see underlined):

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth.

But you're not.
So be careful with your self evaluation, or you'll have to see your priest and "confess".., and would that be a mortal or venial that you might just commit, @Nephesh

I didn't say I'm pure in heart. Again, you changed what I said, and now I have to repeat myself. This time, please don't misrepresent me, and answer with a "yes" or "no" to the following underlined part:

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to not only see, but contain within Her body and spirit God, the Most Holy and Pure One?

 

[Behold]

Mary was granted the greatest Grace of all,

And that does not teach that She is a perpetual virgin, who flew to heaven.

See, you are lost inside this Catholic "could it be that"... concept..

"could it be that because this happened".. then we can say THIS, and it be so.

And that is the issue with Your teaching.., as the Catholic Dogmans, mostly tend to connect dots that are not really there...

So, as i keep telling you..

NO Apostle in the NT, says anything about Mary flying to heaven or being a perpetual virgin.
No Verse in a Bible says that the Apostles were with Mary when she died.

Your CHURCH falsely proclaims this, and so, that is why you are doing it, also.

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to not only see, but contain within Her body and spirit God, the Most Holy and Pure One?

Mary didnt "see God".. @Nephesh .

Mary Saw a Light, and heard the voice of Gabriel.

Ok then. you are stuck on "cut and paste, repeat", and im not doing that... so, we're done for now.
Ive shown the discerning Members who are tracking our discussion...what to realize, and you can also, should you care to lay down your "Mary Manual".

 

[Nephesh]

Now, is it possible that a remarkably sanctified believer can receive special Graces from God?
Of course. St. Bernadette received those, as did St. Francis..

Yes, they did. Mary was granted the greatest Grace of all, by containing within Her body and spirit God Himself, the most Holy and Pure One, and was chosen as His Mother. Have you contemplated the reasons for why?

Yes.

So, you agree with the part where I said Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. However, you still have to agree or disagree with the following underlined part:

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth.

Mary didnt "see God".. @Nephesh .

Mary more than just saw God, She contained God Incarnate, the Messiah, within Her body and spirit, gave birth to Him, kissed Him, hugged Him, fed Him, clothed Him, prayed for Him, witnessed His death, tended to His dead body, the list goes on.

Anyway, again, you changed what I said, and now I have to repeat myself. This time, please don't misrepresent me, and answer with a "yes" or "no" to the following underlined part:

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to not only see God, but contain within Her body and spirit God Himself, the Most Holy and Pure One?

 

[Behold]

Mary more than just saw God, She contained God Incarnate, the Messiah

This is the Son, not the Father.

You understand the concept of the "Trinity'?

 

[Behold]

God says the pure in heart will see Him

Mary didn't "see God".

Mary saw a vision, a light, and the Angel Gabriel.

Try not to confuse this with "God", in your next post, again. @Nephesh

 

[Nephesh]

Now, is it possible that a remarkably sanctified believer can receive special Graces from God?
Of course. St. Bernadette received those, as did St. Francis..

Yes, they did. Mary was granted the greatest Grace of all, by containing within Her body and spirit God Himself, the most Holy and Pure One, and was chosen as His Mother. Have you contemplated the reasons for why?

Yes.

So, you agree with the part where I said Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. However, you still have to agree or disagree with the following underlined part:

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth.

Mary didnt "see God".. @Nephesh .

There is one God with a triniform nature and single unity: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. You agree that Jesus the Son is God, and so to see Jesus is to see God. Mary more than just saw God, She contained God, the Messiah, within Her body and spirit, gave birth to Him, kissed Him, hugged Him, fed Him, clothed Him, prayed for Him, witnessed His death, tended to His dead body, the list goes on.

Anyway, again, you changed what I said, and now I have to repeat myself. This time, please don't misrepresent me, and answer with a "yes" or "no" to the following underlined part:

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to not only see God, but contain within Her body and spirit God Himself, the Most Holy and Pure One?

 

[Behold]

Yes, they did. Mary was granted the greatest Grace of all, by containing within Her body and spirit God Himself,

That is a Catholic teaching, not found in a Bible.

I understand that you find this "Irrelevant", however God doesn't. @Nephesh

So, you agree with the part where I said Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God

Yes, and "many are called but few are Chosen".. Matthew 22:14.

So, she's not the only one "chosen". .... but she's one of the Few...

If you read the Testimony of Paul's Conversion, you'll note that Jesus HIMSELF spoke to Paul, and Paul saw a Vision, a Light.

So, that is Jesus talking to Paul.. whereas Mary was only sent an Angel.

Did you know that? @Nephesh

The Father, the Son, and the Spirit is God. You agree that Jesus the Son is God, and so to see Jesus is to see God.

No,..... to See Jesus is to see the Man in the Flesh.
If you wanted to see Him as God, then you have to go to the Pre-Incarnate Son, who "was God", in John 1.

There was no virgin born Jesus, in Heaven, but there was this..

= "Let US... make Man, in our Image"..

See the.......>"US, and OUR"?

That is the Father and Christ "the Word"..... John 1.

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought,

So then....Why haven't you and your Pope, seen God?

A.) For the same reason that Mary didnt "see God".

= "All have sinned, there are NONE RIGHTEOUS, no not ONE".

 

[Nephesh]

No,..... to See Jesus is to see the Man in the Flesh.
If you wanted to see Him as God, then you have to go to the Pre-Incarnate Son, who "was God", in John 1.

Mary didnt "see God".. @Nephesh .

You agree that Jesus is God Incarnate, which means He's God, and thus if you look at Him you are looking at God. God as the Father not having a physical body doesn't change who Jesus is which is God, not only a human. Therefore, Mary more than just saw God, She contained God within Her body and spirit, gave birth to Him, kissed Him, hugged Him, fed Him, clothed Him, prayed for Him, witnessed His death, tended to His dead body, the list goes on.

Anyway, do you agree or disagree with the following underlined part?

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God Incarnate and the Messiah. God, the Most Holy and Pure One, came down from Heaven, a place where unholiness and impurity cannot dwell, and took form within Her, and thus Her body and spirit had to have already been so Holy and Pure (in part by His doing) to be a Heaven on Earth.

Do you say "yes" or "no" to the following underlined part?

God says the pure in heart will see Him (Matt. 5:8), and to be pure in heart means to not be impure in thought, word, and deed. Therefore, would Mary not have to have been so Holy and Pure, so as to be Second only to God, in order to contain within Her body and spirit God Himself, the Most Holy and Pure One?

 

[Augustin56]

In order to properly understand Scripture, one needs to go beyond the "See Jane. See Jane run." elementary approach of the do-it-yourself Sola Scripture adherants. Scripture is to be viewed as a whole rather than in snippets. And not everything is direct and plain. Some truths are implied in Scripture or must be reasoned to by using Scripture and reason.

One of the titles they gave to the Blessed Virgin Mary was New Eve or Second Eve: because the first Eve said “no” to God and brought about original sin and the fall of mankind.

Mary the “second” Eve (being immaculate and without sin from the time of her conception and thus analogous to Eve as regards sinlessness), said “yes” to God at the Annunciation and in so doing, played a key role in bringing about our redemption, as the Mother of God the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another fascinating analogy along these lines is the notion of Mary as the ark of the new covenant. The original ark was a marvelous gold-lined wooden box that was the holiest item in Judaism. It contained the tablets of the Ten Commandments, and God made His presence especially manifest over the ark, above what was called the “mercy seat” (Ex 25:22): between two carved golden cherubim (angels). This was an early parallel to the Eucharistic Real Presence.

The Church Fathers drew from the following biblical passages in developing this belief:

Luke 1:35 (RSV) And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

The Greek word for overshadow is episkiasei, which describes a bright, glorious cloud. It is used with reference to the cloud of transfiguration of Jesus (Mt 17:5; Mk 9:7; Lk 9:34) and also has a connection to the shekinah glory of God (Ex 24:15-16; 40:34-38; 1 Ki 8:10).

Mary is, therefore, in effect, the new temple and holy of holies, where God was present in a special fashion. Scripture draws many parallels between Mary, the “ark of the new covenant” and the ark of the (old) covenant:

Exodus 40:34-35 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

The Greek Septuagint translation uses the same word, episkiasei, in this passage.

1 Kings 8:6-11 Then the priests brought the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, in the inner sanctuary of the house, in the most holy place, underneath the wings of the cherubim. For the cherubim spread out their wings over the place of the ark, so that the cherubim made a covering above the ark and its poles. And the poles were so long that the ends of the poles were seen from the holy place before the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside; and they are there to this day. There was nothing in the ark except the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. And when the priests came out of the holy place, a cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.

More direct parallels occur as well:

2 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

Luke 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 Samuel 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.

Luke 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

2 Samuel 6:14, 16 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. . . . King David leaping and dancing before the LORD . . . (cf. 1 Chr 15:29)

Luke 1:44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

2 Samuel 6:10-11 So David was not willing to take the ark of the LORD into the city of David; but David took it aside to the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite. And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite three months . . .

Luke 1:39, 56 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, . . . And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

The temple and tabernacle were holy, and this was especially the case with the holy of holies, where the ark was kept. The presence of God always imparted holiness (Dt 7:6; 26:19; Jer 2:3). The furnishings of the tabernacle could not be touched by anyone, save a few priests, on pain of death (Num 1:51-53; 2:17; 4:15).

The high priest entered the holy of holies only once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Num 29:8). A rope was tied to his leg in case he perished from improper behavior (Lev 16:2, 13), so that he could be safely pulled out. Uzziah merely reached out (quite innocently!) to steady the ark of the covenant when it was toppling over, and was struck dead (2 Sam 6:2-7). Others died when they simply looked inside of it (1 Sam 6:19; cf. Ex 33:20).

Thus, by analogy, it was fitting and proper for Mary the ark of the new covenant, Theotokos (“bearer of God”), who had the sublime honor of carrying God incarnate in her womb, to be exceptionally (perfectly) holy.

 

[Truther]

You said, "The verses clearly state that they were Jesus' siblings." However, no, they don't, and to prove it, I told you to quote those verses in its original language, as well as in English, and see for yourself, but you refuse to do that because you know the word "sibling" isn't used. That's why it's weird you assume and assert Jesus had siblings despite also claiming to understand that isn't implicitly, much less explicitly, stated.

Now you are being a Catholic