Was Mary sinless?

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Nephesh

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Perhaps the context of that verse will assist the blind ones…? Or at least reveal the truth to those who are not blind…..

Matthew 13:54-58….New Catholic Bible…..
He came to his hometown, and he began to teach the people in the synagogue. They were astonished and wondered, “Where did this man get such wisdom and these mighty deeds? Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? Are not James and Joseph and Simon and Judas his brethren? And are not all his sisters here with us? Where then did this man get all this?” And so they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is always treated with honor except in his hometown and in his own house. And he did not work many mighty deeds there because of their lack of faith.”

What do we see here….? Jesus is in his “hometown” where he is not well received by his neighbors in the Jewish community, because people know him only as “the carpenter’s son”…they know his mother is Mary, but his “brothers and sisters” are also well known by the doubters….known to them for perhaps their whole lives and proof that they were not yet disciples. What did Jesus say? “A prophet is always treated with honor except IN HIS HOMETOWN and IN HIS OWN HOUSE.” …….do you see that?

These “brethren“ (adelphos) were members of Jesus‘ “own house”….his fleshly brothers and sisters. By naming his brothers, we see that there are four of them.
Because it does not name his sisters and says “all” of them, we can see that there are probably more than two. It does not give a number, but Jewish households were large…..the number of children was related to God’s blessing, (Psalm 127:3-5) so, not something to be used to suggest and promote a lie….in turn suggesting a basis for the adoption of ancient mother goddess worship.

Strongs primary definition of “adelphos“ is….
  1. “a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother”

Refer back to post #190.
 

RedFan

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Gal. 1:19, Paul indicates that James is an apostle as well. This means that he would had to have either been apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus
There could have been other men named James who qualify as "apostles" -- including some who never laid eyes on Jesus. The Greek word apostolos means “delegate,” “ambassador,” “one who is sent.” In this sense Paul calls himself an apostle, e.g., Gal. 1:1. In this sense Paul calls James the brother of the Lord an apostle, Gal. 1:19, as well as Andronicus and Junias, Rom. 16:7, and likely Apollos (1Cor. 4:6, 9), as well as Silvanus and Timothy (1Thess. 1:1, 2:6). In this sense Luke calls both Paul and Barnabas apostles, Acts 14:14.
 

Nephesh

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There could have been other men named James who qualify as "apostles" -- including some who never laid eyes on Jesus. The Greek word apostolos means “delegate,” “ambassador,” “one who is sent.” In this sense Paul calls himself an apostle, e.g., Gal. 1:1. In this sense Paul calls James the brother of the Lord an apostle, Gal. 1:19, as well as Andronicus and Junias, Rom. 16:7, and likely Apollos (1Cor. 4:6, 9), as well as Silvanus and Timothy (1Thess. 1:1, 2:6). In this sense Luke calls both Paul and Barnabas apostles, Acts 14:14.

However, again, in Gal. 1:18-19, Paul indicates that James is one of the twelve apostles.
 

Augustin56

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Did the ancients make exact copies and exact copies of copies of the "testimonials" like they did with the scriptures?
Here's some disturbing news for you (at least from your perspective). It was the Catholic Church (usually monks) who copied the Scriptures throughout the years until the printing press was invented. Many errors in copying were made, and it was the Catholic Church who decided which was correct and which was not. There was a methodology that they used to come up with what we have now. For example, they may have 10 hand-copied versions of the Gospel of John. A particular passage has a passage that says X in 7 of the copies and Y in 3 of the copies. Usually, they went with X.

Additionally, there are always errors in some parts of translations into other languages because of the differences in how languages are used. There are some words that just don't translate well and an approximation was given.

None of this lends to personal interpretation of Scripture out of the context of the Church that gave us the Bible. A Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach would have been highly impractical, anyway, given that the vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the last 100 years in history. Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a (ONE) Church, the Catholic Church, that has been here from the beginning. The Bible is a tool of the Church. It is the Church that has God's authority to authoritatively interpret Scripture.
 
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Nephesh

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I don't see that in the text.

In Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions that after he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the Twelve, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see another one of the apostles, except James the Lord’s brother. The context indicates that James was one of the Twelve, and it's the title "the Lord's brother" which follows his first name that indicates he was also Jesus's kinsman/relative.
 
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RedFan

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In Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions that after he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the twelve apostles, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see any of the other apostles, except James the Lord’s brother. The context indicates that James was one of the twelve apostles, and it's the title "the Lord's brother" which follows his first name that indicates he was also Jesus's family member.
I'm not disputing the "family member" conclusion. But I don't read Gal. 1:18-19 to call James one of the Twelve.
 

Nephesh

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I'm not disputing the "family member" conclusion.

I know.

But I don't read Gal. 1:18-19 to call James one of the Twelve.

Again, in Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions that after he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the Twelve, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see another one of the apostles, except James the Lord’s brother. The context indicates that James was one of the Twelve.
 
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RedFan

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Again, in Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions that after he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the twelve apostles, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see any of the other apostles, except James the Lord’s brother. The context indicates that James was one of the twelve apostles.
Disagree. The "other apostles" Paul was referring to need not have been only the original Twelve just because Peter was one of those Twelve.
 

Nephesh

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Disagree. The "other apostles" Paul was referring to need not have been only the original Twelve just because Peter was one of those Twelve.

"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (one of the Twelve), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). Paul is referring to the twelve apostles by saying he saw and spent time with Peter, but none of the other Twelve, except James. Therefore, that "James" would've either been apostle James of Alphaeus or apostle James of Zebedee, a kinsman/relative of Jesus.
 
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RedFan

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"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (Peter), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). Paul is referring to the twelve apostles by saying he saw and spent time with Peter, but none of the other twelve, except James. Therefore, that "James" would've either been apostle James of Alphaeus or apostle James of Zebedee, a kinsman/relative of Jesus.
Disagree. Just because Peter is one of the Twelve original apostles doesn't mean all "other apostles" were as well in Paul's view. We know he was not of that view, given all of the other men he calls apostles elsewhere.
 

Nephesh

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Disagree. Just because Peter is one of the Twelve original apostles doesn't mean all "other apostles" were as well in Paul's view. We know he was not of that view, given all of the other men he calls apostles elsewhere.

I didn't say Paul considered all other apostles one of the original twelve. Again, I'm showing how he's specifically referring to the original twelve: "Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (one of the Twelve), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). Therefore, that "James" would've either been apostle James of Alphaeus or apostle James of Zebedee of the twelve, a kinsman/relative of Jesus.
 
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RedFan

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I didn't say Paul considered all other apostles one of the original twelve. Again, I'm showing how he's specifically referring to the original twelve: "Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (Peter), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). Therefore, that "James" would've either been apostle James of Alphaeus or apostle James of Zebedee of the twelve, a kinsman/relative of Jesus.
Nothing in these verses is "specifically referring to the original twelve."
 

RedFan

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Let's look at 1 Cor. 15:3-7:

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles."

Look at the order of appearance. First, Peter. Next, the Twelve. Next, 500+ "brethren." Next, James. Obviously Paul would not have mentioned a separate appearance to James if he had already been appeared to as one of the Twelve.

If Paul in First Corinthians could deem "James" as someone not in the original twelve, so could he in Galatians.
 

Nephesh

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Nothing in these verses is "specifically referring to the original twelve."

Are you someone who needs to read the words "the twelve apostles" in order to recognize when the original twelve are being referred to? Or, do you understand that there's more than one way to say something?

"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (one of the Twelve), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). The underlined/italicized parts are how we know Paul is specifically referring to Peter and James of the Twelve.

Let's look at 1 Cor. 15:3-7:

"He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve..." (1 Cor. 15:5)
"After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters (disciples) at one time..." (1 Cor. 15:6)
"then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also." (1 Cor. 15:7)

In 1 Cor. 15:5, Jesus appeared to the apostle Peter (one of the Twelve), then to the Twelve, and thus seen by Peter twice. Regarding 1 Cor. 15:7, if "all the apostles" referred to "all other apostles," then Paul, an "other apostle,” would've been included with them, but He was seen and mentioned separately from them and lastly. Therefore, Jesus appeared to one of the James of the Twelve, then to the Twelve, and thus seen by James twice.
 
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RedFan

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Are you someone who needs to read the words "the twelve apostles" in order to recognize when the original twelve are being referred to? Or, do you understand that there's more than one way to refer to something?

"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (one of the Twelve), and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19). The underlined/italicized parts are how we know Paul is specifically referring to Peter and James of the original twelve.



"He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve..." (1 Cor. 15:5)
Jesus appeared to just apostle Peter then later to him and the rest of the Twelve apostles.

"After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters (disciples) at one time..." (1 Cor. 15:6)

"then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also." (1 Cor. 15:7)

In 1 Cor. 15:5, Jesus appeared to just the apostle Peter, then later to him with the rest of the Twelve, so He was seen by Peter at least twice. In the same way, Jesus appeared to just one of the two James's of the Twelve, then later to him with the rest of the Twelve, so He was seen by James at least twice as well. If "all the apostles" that Jesus appeared to were "all other apostles," then Paul, an "other apostle", would've been included with them, but He was seen and mentioned separately from them and lastly. Therefore, Jesus appeared to one of the James of the Twelve, either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus.
Believe what you want. We've beaten this horse to death.
 

Truther

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O really? By all means, show us.

By the way, if you rightly believe that James, the brother of Jesus (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3), and “James the Lord’s brother” (Gal. 1:19) were the same person, then even without the early Christian testimonies, your belief is still disproven using Scripture alone. This is because in Gal. 1:19, Paul indicates that James is one of the Twelve, which means he would have had to have either been apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

So, what type of family member would either apostle have been to Jesus? Well, only the apostle James of Alphaeus, and his known siblings, Apostle Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) and Joseph of Alphaeus, correspond with the four brothers (kinsmen/relatives) of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3: Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus). Additionally, because of Matt. 27:56, Mk. 15:40, and Jn. 19:25, we know that Jesus's Mother's sister Mary of Clopas (Cleophas/Alphaeus) was the mother of at least two sons: James (the Less) and Joseph.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Was Jesus speaking of another group of disciples or his immediate family?

Boink!
 

Truther

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Here's some disturbing news for you (at least from your perspective). It was the Catholic Church (usually monks) who copied the Scriptures throughout the years until the printing press was invented. Many errors in copying were made, and it was the Catholic Church who decided which was correct and which was not. There was a methodology that they used to come up with what we have now. For example, they may have 10 hand-copied versions of the Gospel of John. A particular passage has a passage that says X in 7 of the copies and Y in 3 of the copies. Usually, they went with X.

Additionally, there are always errors in some parts of translations into other languages because of the differences in how languages are used. There are some words that just don't translate well and an approximation was given.

None of this lends to personal interpretation of Scripture out of the context of the Church that gave us the Bible. A Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach would have been highly impractical, anyway, given that the vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the last 100 years in history. Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a (ONE) Church, the Catholic Church, that has been here from the beginning. The Bible is a tool of the Church. It is the Church that has God's authority to authoritatively interpret Scripture.
Bingo, you admit the RCC created these "church father" diaries.
 

Nephesh

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46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Was Jesus speaking of another group of disciples or his immediate family?

Boink!

In this scene, Jesus's brothers who arrived with His Mother to speak with Him at Capernaum were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. Joseph and Simon had heard that Jesus had recently done carpentry work in Korazim for a widow whose husband had died, and they, particularly Joseph, was the most visually and vocally angry at Him for making money for her and her children, but not His own Mother, etc., and they were there to confront Him about it, but Jesus set them straight. I know some of those details not from any of the accounts of the Four Evangelists, as they are incomplete, but rather from The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God, an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta.
 
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