Was Mary sinless?

[Davy]

I know that Jesus is God Incarnate. Jesus was fully human and fully divine.

Then you should never use His flesh as a comparison to His Salvation, which is not of the flesh, but of The Spirit. Jesus' flesh body was just a flesh body, and was only transfigured to the spirit body at His resurrection. And that spirit body is what He manifested on earth with for 40 days after His resurrection.

Do you agree that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

I don't believe in loose non-Bible based speculation.

God revealed in the Book of Ezekiel about sin not being transferred to the children, that each soul is held individually responsible for their sins.

 

[Nephesh]

I don't believe in loose non-Bible based speculation.

You don't believe that all things are possible with God? (Matt. 19:26)

Then you should never use His flesh as a comparison to His Salvation, which is not of the flesh, but of The Spirit. Jesus' flesh body was just a flesh body, and was only transfigured to the spirit body at His resurrection. And that spirit body is what He manifested on earth with for 40 days after His resurrection.

I'm talking about how Jesus was fully human and fully divine. In God's humanity, he was susceptible to the temptations of evil, and through His will, in cooperation with God the Father's help, He didn't commit sins. He's proof that other humans could do the same, if we have constant strong enough willpower and ask for God 's help. Therefore, Jesus is also the human exception to the "all have sinned," including children who've died without having committed sins. For these reasons, Rom. 3:23 isn't proof that Jesus's Mother sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Davy]

You don't believe that all things are possible with God? (Matt. 19:26)

Could that mean that you may any day now be changed into a frog? I mean, all things are possible, right?

Obviously, Lord Jesus didn't mean that just anything we dream up in our minds can be possible. Recall those of Matthew 20:20-24.

 

[RedFan]

God revealed in the Book of Ezekiel about sin not being transferred to the children, that each soul is held individually responsible for their sins.

And God also revealed that He would punish children and grandchildren and great grandchildren for the sins of a father (Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9)

 

[Nephesh]

Could that mean that you may any day now be changed into a frog? I mean, all things are possible, right?

Obviously, Lord Jesus didn't mean that just anything we dream up in our minds can be possible. Recall those of Matthew 20:20-24.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned..." (Rom. 5:12). There are obviously exceptions to "all have sinned, " such as Jesus, children, etc. This verse shows that because our first parents (Adam and Eve) disobeyed God (sinned), humans that are born into this life are susceptible to evil temptation as well. God ab aeterno would've thought of creating the soul that was to be the Mother of God Incarnate. Do you believe that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting the original sin of the inclination towards disobedence, and thus committing sins)? Either you do or don't.

 

[Davy]

And God also revealed that He would punish children and grandchildren and great grandchildren for the sins of a father (Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9)

Exodus 20:5-6, the condition is that sin continues with the children OF THOSE THAT HATE GOD.

 

[Davy]

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned..." (Rom. 5:12). There are obviously exceptions to "all have sinned, " such as Jesus, children, etc. This verse shows that because of the sins committed by our first parents (Adam and Eve), humans that are born into this life sin. God ab aeterno would've thought of creating the soul that was to be the Mother of God Incarnate. Do you believe that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting the original sin of the inclination towards disobedence, and thus committing sins)? Either you do or don't.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, only involved a flesh body, NOT THE SOUL.

Mary is one of the saints, and that's all. Those in Christ worship ONLY The Father and The Son.

Worship of Mary is an abomination which God does not like.

 

[Nephesh]

Mary, the mother of Jesus, only involved a flesh body, NOT THE SOUL.

Mary is one of the saints, and that's all. Those in Christ worship ONLY The Father and The Son.

Worship of Mary is an abomination which God does not like.

Do you believe that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate (or Mother of Jesus) from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting the original sin of the inclination towards disobedence, and thus committing sins)? Either you do or don't.

 

[RedFan]

Exodus 20:5-6, the condition is that sin continues with the children OF THOSE THAT HATE GOD.

Gotta disagree with you on this. I see the three-to-four generational limitation of these verses very differently―and indeed, as the key to understanding them. It ensures that the wrongdoer never lives long enough to see a descendant who is not paying for his sins! This is his punishment. And three or four generations of his descendants are made to suffer in order to punish him, just so that he will wail every day of his potentially long life at the visible consequences of his sin. (Aquinas saw this. “The text adds, ‘to the third and fourth generation,’ because men are wont to live long enough to see the third and fourth generation.” Summa Theologica Part II Q. 87 Art. 8.)

The framework of three or four generations is specifically picked so that the perpetrator would not live to see an unpunished descendant -- and proves that his descendants are punished for his sin, not for their own.

 

[Behold]

Mary was assumed into heaven, and the Church is silent as to whether this happened before she died, at the moment she died,

Not all Catholics agree that Mary died... but the majority do.
You can research that for yourself.

Till you do, Here is evidence provided by A Pope that suggests that she flew to heaven, before she died..

I'll explain it...within the context of Paul the Apostle's teaching., so, notice carefully the word..."course"...

Notice..

Pope Pius XII

"""""We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.""""


See that word "course" ????.., = and how its used by this Pope, in the context of = regarding her """" LIFE""""

Paul used it also..

He said..>"I have finished my COURSE, i have kept the faith"..........."and now there is laid up for me in HEAVEN"......


See that?

Its the same context, (the statement)...regarding the Pope and Paul.......and in Paul's case he isnt DEAD.....He's only finished with his earthly purpose. "I have finished my Course", and so did "Mary" according to this particular Pope.

So, Its the same with Mary, unless you try<>want to explain it differently, and say.....>"no... that only means she died"..
But, That is NOT how Paul explains the finished "course", and its pretty apparent that this Pope has read Paul's verse and applied that word "COURSE".. and VERSE..= to Mary.

 

[Augustin56]

Not all Catholics agree that Mary died... but the majority do.
You can research that for yourself.

Till you do, Here is evidence provided by A Pope that suggests that she flew to heaven, before she died..

I'll explain it...within the context of Paul the Apostle's teaching., so, notice carefully the word..."course"...

Notice..

Pope Pius XII

"""""We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.""""


See that word "course" ????.., = and how its used by this Pope, in the context of = regarding her """" LIFE""""

Paul used it also..

He said..>"I have finished my COURSE, i have kept the faith"..........."and now there is laid up for me in HEAVEN"......


See that?

Its the same context, (the statement)...regarding the Pope and Paul.......and in Paul's case he isnt DEAD.....He's only finished with his earthly purpose. "I have finished my Course", and so did "Mary" according to this particular Pope.

So, Its the same with Mary, unless you try<>want to explain it differently, and say.....>"no... that only means she died"..
But, That is NOT how Paul explains the finished "course", and its pretty apparent that this Pope has read Paul's verse and applied that word "COURSE".. and VERSE..= to Mary.

The Pope repeated what I just explained to you. Mary didn't "fly" to heaven. She was "assumed" into heaven. And there is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that says whether she did so before or after she died, not that it matters one way or the other.

Here's what Jesus never said:

 

[TLHKAJ]

Again, in 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus was God Incarnate, but also fully human, susceptible to the temptations of evil, and through His will, in cooperation with God the Father's help, He didn't commit sins. He was a human exception to the "all have sinned," including children who've died without having committed sins. For these reasons, Rom. 3:23 isn't proof that Jesus's Mother sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception. Do you agree that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

So in your opinion, Mary is the only human ever born who never needed a Savior. This, of course, is not stated anywhere in scripture. And as @Mark has stated, scripture confirms the opposite over and over.

Follow this out. If God would preserve Mary without sin, why would He not just do that for everyone?? There wouldn't have been a fall at all, and no need for sacrifices, let alone Jesus' sacrifice.

Mary herself acknowledged her need for the Savior in Luke chapter 1.

Luke 1:46-50
[46]And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
[47]And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[48]For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
[49]For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
[50]And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

In the Greek, the phrase "low estate" also means "vile" or "vile estate." She humbled herself and acknowledged her sinful nature and that God was her Savior.

 

[Augustin56]

So in your opinion, Mary is the only human ever born who never needed a Savior. This, of course, is not stated anywhere in scripture. And as @Mark has stated, scripture confirms the opposite over and over.

Follow this out. If God would preserve Mary without sin, why would He not just do that for everyone?? There wouldn't have been a fall at all, and no need for sacrifices, let alone Jesus' sacrifice.

Mary herself acknowledged her need for the Savior in Luke chapter 1.

Luke 1:46-50
[46]And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
[47]And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[48]For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
[49]For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
[50]And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

In the Greek, the phrase "low estate" also means "vile" or "vile estate." She humbled herself and acknowledged her sinful nature and that God was her Savior.

Mary needed a Savior. Jesus saved her...BEFORE she sinned.

Here's how it was explained in ancient times. Suppose a man was walking along a forest path and fell into a pit of quicksand (he sinned). He yelled for help, asking for someone to save him. A handsome prince on a white horse (think Jesus) came along, threw him a rope and pulled him out! (Saved him from the quicksand.) A couple of days later, a beautiful young woman (Mary) was coming along the same path towards the pit of quicksand. But before she got there, the handsome young prince came along and said, "Stop! There's a pit of quicksand ahead on this path!" She stops and doesn't fall into the quicksand (sin). The prince also saved the young woman from the pit of quicksand, but BEFORE she fell in.

Scripture says that Mary was born without Original sin and remained sinless her whole life. (Luke 1:28) But you would have to know the Greek and how it was used then, in order to fully understand this. A loose translation into English misses many points, including this one. Reading Scripture out of the context of the Church that wrote it and declared it to be Scripture leads to all sorts of errors.

 

[Nephesh]

So in your opinion, Mary is the only human ever born who never needed a Savior. This, of course, is not stated anywhere in scripture.

A savior is someone who saves another from danger or destruction. God the Father saved Mary by preserving Her soul from the stain of original sin, thus remaining an immaculate soul, so as to be the matrix for the flesh of God (Jesus, God Incarnate), the Most Holy and Pure One. That's why Mary called God Her Savior (Lk. 1:47).

 

[Behold]

The Pope repeated what I just explained to you. Mary didn't "fly" to heaven.

According to Catholic folklore, Mary was in her dead body, and left the tomb. (in her dead body).

"flew". "dead body". = Mary "ascended".

So, the Catholic Folklore, (man-made)is that she flew (ascended) to heaven in her OLD Body, that is "dead because of Sin".

She didnt.

 

[Augustin56]

According to Catholic folklore, Mary was in her dead body, and left the tomb. (in her dead body).

"flew". "dead body". = Mary "ascended".

So, the Catholic Folklore, (man-made)is that she flew (ascended) to heaven in her OLD Body, that is "dead because of Sin".

She didnt.

Hopefully, you have a little more imagination than that. Mary didn't "fly." It only says "assumed." I picture her being transported like the Star Ship Enterprise, with her body kind of vaporizing on earth and reconstituting in heaven.

And, since you weren't there, you cannot have the certitude that this didn't happen. The very best you can honestly say is that you don't know.

However, if you know Scripture (a lot) better, you would be able to see Mary's place in the Church and in heaven.

Listen to Dr. Scott Hahn, once a Protestant seminary teacher and pastor, explain this for you:

(It's only a little over 8 minutes.)

 

[RedFan]

Scripture says that Mary was born without Original sin and remained sinless her whole life. (Luke 1:28) But you would have to know the Greek and how it was used then, in order to fully understand this. A loose translation into English misses many points, including this one. Reading Scripture out of the context of the Church that wrote it and declared it to be Scripture leads to all sorts of errors.

I don't read Luke 1:28 to establish that Mary didn't sin once in her whole life. That's not a necessary interpretation of kecharitomene.

 

[Augustin56]

I don't read Luke 1:28 to establish that Mary didn't sin once in her whole life. That's not a necessary interpretation of kecharitomene.

Hey, Redfan! Happy Sunday!

You might enjoy the following video that explains the Immaculate Conception and its Biblical roots:

(A little less than 30 minutes.)

 

[RedFan]

OK, nice to see this podcast. Thanks for sharing. I'm not quite sold, though. That Gen 3:15's "enmity" between Mary and Satan could not be possible if Mary had been conceived with original sin just strikes me as a stretch. That Rev. 12:1-6 references Mary as the Arc of the New Covenant seems unlikely, but even if it does, her sinlessness doesn't follow from the Arc's holiness except by analogy. (And I'm always circumspect when it comes to analogies!)

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

OK, nice to see this podcast. Thanks for sharing. I'm not quite sold, though. That Gen 3:15's "enmity" between Mary and Satan could not be possible if Mary had been conceived with original sin just strikes me as a stretch. That Rev. 12:1-6 references Mary as the Arc of the New Covenant seems unlikely, but even if it does, her sinlessness doesn't follow from the Arc's holiness except by analogy. (And I'm always circumspect when it comes to analogies!)

A foreshadow is not an analogy.