Was Mary sinless?

[Mungo]

The vatican is a recognized political state and it has it's own bank. But the treasure of the real church is in heaven and we have no country but the heavenly Jerusalem!

The Vatican State is 110 acres. Do you call that using worldly powers? :lol:

 

[Episkopos]

The Vatican State is 110 acres. Do you call that using worldly powers? :lol:

You perhaps don't understand what worldly power is. Even a sinner walks in his own power. Are you saying that this is not important?

A saint walks in the power of Christ...not a worldly temporal strength.

The church of the Redeemer walks with Christ in powerlessness according to this world. Don't you know this? You have a Catholic writer Henri Neuwen (I think that is his name). You could learn more of this from him. He is Catholic so you don't have to feel threatened!! :)

 

[ChurchAuthority]

You don't even respect apostolic authority...you spurn the apostle Paul...why would you respect anyone else who comes in God's name? You have no fear of God...this might seem like a good thing to you...but the ways of the wicked seem wise to them!

I "spurn" St. Paul??
How so?

 

[Foreigner]

You're right about ONE thing: the Jew WERE the first Catholics.

As for your other remark, please tell me whan the "Catholic belief system" was created. show me the document, decree or declaration that established this system that is "contrary" to Scripture.

-- I am still waiting for someone to provide proof that the Catholic belief system actually supports scripture.

Because if it isn't supported by God-breathed Scripture, then why bother?

Having grown up Catholic I can share many things that the Catholic church claims are 'truth' that are not supported anywhere by Scripture, and are in some cases contrary to scripture.

I can also point out a number of Catholic practices that are based on the perversion of Scripture.

 

[Episkopos]

I "spurn" St. Paul??
How so?

You speak vanities without actually listening to what you're say you respect. Paul forbids women teaching men...period. When we listen to you we can see the wisdom of this.

Look an immature child cries to get attention...but the louder the voice doesn't mean there is any point to it!

You are saying nothing! You don't respect any apostolic authority. You are speaking great swelling words that are meaningless. Submit yourself rather to the teachings of Paul and Jesus...then we'll see!

 

[Alanforchrist]

Individuals within the Church have persecuted heretics over the centuries and this was not right. However - they were heretics. It was the hersesies that they were attemptig to quell.

As for your myth that many sects around the world still meet the way the Early Christians did, you're dead wrong. First of all - is they model themselves after the Early Church - where is the Eucharist, hmmm? the Early Church was dedicated to the Holy Eucharist and worshipped it as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was not just a symbol to them and many of them went willingly to horrific deaths because they were accused of cannibalism by their pagan Roman persecutors? Did you know that? I didn't think so.
The so-called "Reformers" ALSO believed in the Eucharist.

As for the Early Church -
The Early Church baptized infants.
The Early Church prayed for the dead.
The Early Church was led by Priests and Bishops.
The Early Church believed in Church Authority.
The Early Church taught about Mary's Perpetual Virginity - and so did the "Reformers".
The Early Church believed in Mary's Immaculate Conception - and so did many of the "Reformers".
The Early Church taught about Purgatory.
The Early Church believed in Apostolic Succession.

The Early Church didn't have "altar calls".
The Early Church didn't believe in OSAS.
The Early Church didn't believe in Eternal Security.
The Early Church didn't believe in Sola Scriptura.
The Early Church didn't believe in Sola Fide.
The Early Church didn't believe in a pre-Tribulation "Rapture".

Finally - if there are still sects around the world modeling themselves after the Early Church - then they missed the point entirely. The REAL Church is a living Body that GREW over the last 2000 years. It grew from the acorn to the oak - the mustard seed to the large plant.



So - you can't prove any of it?
That's what I thought.

You see - anti-Catholics are usually just full of hot wind. When you ask them for evidence - they reatreat back to their inane one-liners.

This is waaaaay too easy.
Whenever you're ready to have an intelligent discourse - I'm all ears . . .

[1]The early Church DID NOT do those things you said they did, The early catholics might of done, But they aren't God's Church.

[2]The early Church DID do, And believe those things you said they didn't do.
All you have proved is, You don't know the TRUE Church and you don't know the Bible.

 

[Mungo]

You perhaps don't understand what worldly power is. Even a sinner walks in his own power. Are you saying that this is not important?

A saint walks in the power of Christ...not a worldly temporal strength.

The church of the Redeemer walks with Christ in powerlessness according to this world. Don't you know this? You have a Catholic writer Henri Neuwen (I think that is his name). You could learn more of this from him. He is Catholic so you don't have to feel threatened!! :)

How is owning a 110 acres of land to be the centre of the world wide Church "walking in worldly strength"?. Did not the Jews have the Temple in Jerusalem?

Henri Nouwen - read him. Excellent book on the Prodigal Son.

 

[Episkopos]

How is owning a 110 acres of land to be the centre of the world wide Church "walking in worldly strength"?. Did not the Jews have the Temple in Jerusalem?

Henri Nouwen - read him. Excellent book on the Prodigal Son.

Go read books/articles about downward mobility ...he is mostly following the teachings of Christ. It is the very ANTITHESIS of the practice of the RC church. Let it be one of your own that speaks to you!

 

[ChurchAuthority]

-- I am still waiting for someone to provide proof that the Catholic belief system actually supports scripture.

Because if it isn't supported by God-breathed Scripture, then why bother?

Having grown up Catholic I can share many things that the Catholic church claims are 'truth' that are not supported anywhere by Scripture, and are in some cases contrary to scripture.

I can also point out a number of Catholic practices that are based on the perversion of Scripture.

I'm still waiting for somebody to prove one, single Catholic doctrine that is a perversion of Scripture.
All I get around here is sarcasm and absurd one-liners - but ZERO evidence.

Please show me what you believe the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to Scripture.

[1]The early Church DID NOT do those things you said they did, The early catholics might of done, But they aren't God's Church.

[2]The early Church DID do, And believe those things you said they didn't do.
All you have proved is, You don't know the TRUE Church and you don't know the Bible.

Can ONE of you be more specific and address the things I have listed??

1. To WHICH things are you referrring when you say the Early Church did NOT do?
2. WHICH things did the Early Church do that you claim I said they DIDN'T do??

Be SPECIFIC and show me documented evidence.

You speak vanities without actually listening to what you're say you respect. Paul forbids women teaching men...period. When we listen to you we can see the wisdom of this.

Look an immature child cries to get attention...but the louder the voice doesn't mean there is any point to it!

You are saying nothing! You don't respect any apostolic authority. You are speaking great swelling words that are meaningless. Submit yourself rather to the teachings of Paul and Jesus...then we'll see!

WRONG.

Paul did not forbid women from teaching in ALL circumstances. I already showed you where Priscilla taught Apollos - and she was a co-teacher with Paul, along with Aquila, her husband.

Paul forbade women from teachign in an ecclesial and Presbutorial context. You don't know what you're talking about and I have repeatedly exposed you for your Biblical ignorance.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm still waiting for somebody to prove one, single Catholic doctrine that is a perversion of Scripture.
All I get around here is sarcasm and absurd one-liners - but ZERO evidence.

Please show me what you believe the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to Scripture.

-- I and others have provided the very answers you are demanding time and time again on this board.
You are a newbie and are obviously clueless about that.
Feel free to check the SCORES of threads on the topic of Catholicism on this board.
There is more than enough evidence to show where the Catholic church is in error, both in claiming things not supported by scripture and perverting scripture to support their positions.
Everything from 'purgatory' downward. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm still waiting for somebody to prove one, single Catholic doctrine that is a perversion of Scripture.
All I get around here is sarcasm and absurd one-liners - but ZERO evidence.

Please show me what you believe the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to Scripture.



Can ONE of you be more specific and address the things I have listed??

1. To WHICH things are you referrring when you say the Early Church did NOT do?
2. WHICH things did the Early Church do that you claim I said they DIDN'T do??

Be SPECIFIC and show me documented evidence.



WRONG.

Paul did not forbid women from teaching in ALL circumstances. I already showed you where Priscilla taught Apollos - and she was a co-teacher with Paul, along with Aquila, her husband.

Paul forbade women from teachign in an ecclesial and Presbutorial context. You don't know what you're talking about and I have repeatedly exposed you for your Biblical ignorance.

Your ignorance is in both the biblical and extra-biblical realms. Usurping authority is not confined to certain places! Disrespect is always disrespect! Priscilla and Aquila were not speaking to Apollos in a steeple house. The church met in their own home. This is in the day before pews and pointy hats.

Priscilla and Aquila were married. It was THEIR home. You are making an argument in reverse. We also teach in our home. But my wife would never try to teach a man.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

-- I and others have provided the very answers you are demanding time and time again on this board.
You are a newbie and are obviously clueless about that.
Feel free to check the SCORES of threads on the topic of Catholicism on this board.
There is more than enough evidence to show where the Catholic church is in error, both in claiming things not supported by scripture and perverting scripture to support their positions.
Everything from 'purgatory' downward. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

In other words, you don't have any evidence.
I've been debating for over 12 years and EVERY time somebody says, "Do a forum search and you'll see" - that means they don't have any answers. This is a common tactic. If there is so much evidence that is readily available, perhaps you can point me to it, hmmm?

As for Purgatory, what part of it do you have a problem with?

Your ignorance is in both the biblical and extra-biblical realms. Usurping authority is not confined to certain places! Disrespect is always disrespect! Priscilla and Aquila were not speaking to Apollos in a steeple house. The church met in their own home. This is in the day before pews and pointy hats.

Priscilla and Aquila were married. It was THEIR home. You are making an argument in reverse. We also teach in our home. But my wife would never try to teach a man.

Priscilla and Aquila TAUGHT Apollos. It doesn't matter that it was in their own home. You said that Paul taught that a woman should NEVER teach a man and you are DEAD wrong.

I have exposed you.

 

[Foreigner]

lol Actually I have ALREADY provided tons of evidence proving my point.
You apparently are either too lazy or incompetent to check the other posts on this board to see for yourself.
You make claims like "every board I visit" but and they are nothing tripe.
Basically, you want people to answer to your every whim without actually providing support for your own claims.

If you were an adult you would go see for yourself. But I guess that is asking too much.
If you wanted to know, you could easily see for yourself. Obviously you don't.

As far as Purgatory, nothing scripturally supports it. Period. Catholics either add to scripture or pervert it.
I am curious to see which one you will chose since those really are your only options.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

lol Actually I have ALREADY provided tons of evidence proving my point.
You apparently are either too lazy or incompetent to check the other posts on this board to see for yourself.
You make claims like "every board I visit" but and they are nothing tripe.
Basically, you want people to answer to your every whim without actually providing support for your own claims.

If you were an adult you would go see for yourself. But I guess that is asking too much.
If you wanted to know, you could easily see for yourself. Obviously you don't.

As far as Purgatory, nothing scripturally supports it. Period. Catholics either add to scripture or pervert it.
I am curious to see which one you will chose since those really are your only options.

I will answer your Purgatory question because that is the only one you appear to be willing to discuss (sort of). When you're ready to stop LOL-ing speak like a mature grown up, I will be more than happy to provide answers for ANY of your anti-Catholic charges.

Purgatory isn’t necessarily a place, but a state. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032). Another misconception is that Purgatory is a “second chance”. This is not the case, as those Christians who die in a state of mortal sin are not eligible because mortal sin severs our relationship with God.

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. Those in Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven. As the great Protestant author, C.S. Lewis once stated, “The mercy of God demands purgatory.”
Regardless of what some may say, the belief in Purgatory is scripturally-based. In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
Hmmm, let's see - this isn't talking about a person in Heaven because they are SUFFERING.
This isn't talkning about a person in Hell because it says that they WILL BE SAVED.
This is a THIRD state - so - what IS it?

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved). Purgatory is for the believer who dies in God’s favor (without the stain of mortal sin) but is in need of final purification before entering heaven.

So, please enlighten me about the "falsehood" of Purgatory.

 

[Mungo]

As far as Purgatory, nothing scripturally supports it. Period. Catholics either add to scripture or pervert it.
I am curious to see which one you will chose since those really are your only options.

I did a thread on Purgatory giving loads of scriptural support (9 quotes in the OP and that was only part 1). And you were the first person to respond.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16012-purgatory/?hl=purgatory


What you really mean is that there is no scriptural support you will admit to even when it is shoved in your face.

 

[Episkopos]

In other words, you don't have any evidence.
I've been debating for over 12 years and EVERY time somebody says, "Do a forum search and you'll see" - that means they don't have any answers. This is a common tactic. If there is so much evidence that is readily available, perhaps you can point me to it, hmmm?

As for Purgatory, what part of it do you have a problem with?


Priscilla and Aquila TAUGHT Apollos. It doesn't matter that it was in their own home. You said that Paul taught that a woman should NEVER teach a man and you are DEAD wrong.

I have exposed you.

Wrong!!!

You have been exposed for twisting the bible in order to do what Priscilla would never condone. Why isn't your husband talking to me? Do you have control over him?

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Wrong!!!

You have been exposed for twisting the bible in order to do what Priscilla would never condone. Why isn't your husband talking to me? Do you have control over him?

Ummm, I don't know who you think you're talking to but I'm a man. It clearly states that on my profile.

As for Priscilla - are you trying to tell me that she didn't teach Apollos? Talk about perverting the Scriptures . . .

 

[aspen]

i think the use of sarcasm and charater attacks are often used to prove Catholic doctrine wrong. it is all fluff and ego.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

i think the use of sarcasm and charater attacks are often used to prove Catholic doctrine wrong. it is all fluff and ego.

And it's also a way of changing the subject or steering the conversation away from things that anti-Catholics simply cannot answer.

 

[Alanforchrist]

I'm still waiting for somebody to prove one, single Catholic doctrine that is a perversion of Scripture.
All I get around here is sarcasm and absurd one-liners - but ZERO evidence.

Please show me what you believe the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to Scripture.



Can ONE of you be more specific and address the things I have listed??

1. To WHICH things are you referrring when you say the Early Church did NOT do?
2. WHICH things did the Early Church do that you claim I said they DIDN'T do??

Be SPECIFIC and show me documented evidence.



WRONG.

Paul did not forbid women from teaching in ALL circumstances. I already showed you where Priscilla taught Apollos - and she was a co-teacher with Paul, along with Aquila, her husband.

Paul forbade women from teachign in an ecclesial and Presbutorial context. You don't know what you're talking about and I have repeatedly exposed you for your Biblical ignorance.

All of them