Was Judas Saved Or Not Saved?

[Nancy]

Well said.

I always remember that the Lake Of Fire was created for the Devil and his angels...not for mankind.

If you do a study on 'ever and ever', 'everlasting', 'forever' 'endless' etc...nothing can convince me that the punishment for the unconverted man goes on forever and ever and is endless...it does not...

@amadeus and myself don't see quite eye to eye perfectly on this..but we agree on the point about it not being 'eternal' burning and punishment. No way!!

I've yet to see anyone prove that from the original wording...that is all mans doing to scare people into accepting Jesus... ( which is usually a very shallow experience, because it isn't for loves sake ,
but for 'a quick cheap escape.'

Them's my thoughts ...and I'm sticking to them.

I tends to agree with your thoughts :) Just being separated from God would be hell. Just think of when He does separate Himself fully, there'd be no light, no joy, no peace, no goodness of any kind.
Only:
Hebrews 1027
"but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES."
xo

 

[quietthinker]

Well said.

I always remember that the Lake Of Fire was created for the Devil and his angels...not for mankind.

If you do a study on 'ever and ever', 'everlasting', 'forever' 'endless' etc...nothing can convince me that the punishment for the unconverted man goes on forever and ever and is endless...it does not...

@amadeus and myself don't see quite eye to eye perfectly on this..but we agree on the point about it not being 'eternal' burning and punishment. No way!!

I've yet to see anyone prove that from the original wording...that is all mans doing to scare people into accepting Jesus... ( which is usually a very shallow experience, because it isn't for loves sake ,
but for 'a quick cheap escape.'

Them's my thoughts ...and I'm sticking to them.

Forever or ever and ever means for how ever long it exists.
Life forever is precisely that.....because it continues
Death forever is precisely that....because it continues

To somehow arrange the meaning of the words to mean what they don't is an interesting mental trick and a clever or not so clever deception.
Asserting that Death means life forever in flames is a total misunderstanding of death. It is adopting the pagan view and attempting to squeeze its meaning into the biblical scriptures.

 

[ChristisGod]

Your thoughts please

judas the son of perdition is just as saved as this son of perdition (the man of sin)is saved below :

2 Thessolonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4-Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Lavender Purple]

I was watching a children's cartoon (yeah I know call me silly) of Judas' betrayal of Jesus. When Judas saw how Jesus was getting treated and abused, Judas said "please forgive me". Then he given back the 30 coins to the Jewish leaders. Of course after that he committed suicide

 

[Enoch111]

Asserting that Death means life forever in flames is a total misunderstanding of death. I

That's only because you haven't the faintest clue about "the Second Death".

 

[quietthinker]

That's only because you haven't the faintest clue about "the Second Death".

Really? maybe you could enlighten me.

 

[Giuliano]

The concept is wholly scriptural, here are some NT references for you. Jesus is the Lamb of God. He is a fulfillment of the passover lamb....

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (1 Cor. 5:7)

I apologize for being so tardy in answering you. I see you ignored the first part of my post. Let me repeat the question:

Don't confuse spiritual forgiveness by God with earthly consequences. If I murder someone, I could repent and be forgiven, but that wouldn't bring the person back to life, would it?​

I don't know if I should respond to the rest of your post or not since it may derail the thread; but I will.

First John did not say the "sins" of people in the world. It's also in the present tense. Jesus was (and is) removing the sin of the world. That is not your personal sins or mine. John was talking about removing the curse on the earth when Adam sinned and the earth was cursed.

The Passover Lamb was not a sacrifice for sins.

And Jesus, as Lamb of God, was slain at the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Hebrews 10:19-20)

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Rev. 1:5)

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev. 12:11)

That's a lot of passages cited, but you still did not answer my question. Do you think the physical human blood of Jesus does this, or is it the spiritual Blood of Christ? Please answer me. This is the quote from my previous post:

I hope you don't mean the physical human blood that was shed. Jesus offered his blood to the disciples before that. He was talking about spiritual blood.​

If the blood of Christ is physical and not spiritual, how could Jesus have offered it to his disciples before he was crucified?

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

 

[Giuliano]

My response was about the traitor Judas Iscariot. The Bible makes it crystal clear that he is damned -- that is the meaning of "Son of Perdition". Just like the Antichrist, who is also the "Son of Perdition". Perdition is damnation: "the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell".

Oh? The same word is used in Acts, translated as "perish":

Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Should we believe his money is burning with him eternally in hellfire? It's also translated in other places as "destruction."

 

[ChristisGod]

Oh? The same word is used in Acts, translated as "perish":

Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Should we believe his money is burning with him eternally in hellfire? It's also translated in other places as "destruction."

only 2 times in scripture is the " son of perdition" used and its with judas and the man of sin. read my last post and look it up yourself in the bible.

 

[Yan]

It seems when economic depression occurs, the only way to solve that problem is by using religion based hatred and judgement by those who have a power. Because religion will make a justification for those who don't want to be their slaves just similar when Islam rules with dhimmi contract, if they will not convert they will used justification to make depopulation based on religious sentiment of the actions to achieve a war. What makes one religion as the most righteous on earth if they don't lived their lives contradicts the reality of the gospel, we all did those contradiction in each religion but what makes american christianity become the most higher than others ?
But in the end, all priests and high priests who made a religion as a slavery and money making tools are being judged by God (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[David H.]

That's a lot of passages cited, but you still did not answer my question. Do you think the physical human blood of Jesus does this, or is it the spiritual Blood of Christ? Please answer me. This is the quote from my previous post:

Yes the Blood is Spiritual, But the effect of the Blood cleansing is very REAL and LIFE CHANGING. Sounds to me like you have never experienced the cleansing power of the blood? I do not know you personally to say this but there are many in the churches who believe doctrines that have never experienced and lived those doctrines and they ascribe them onto themselves by their mentality, but it is not a belief of the heart. They Know About Jesus and the cross, Believe in his divinity and claim to be Christians But they do not KNOW Jesus intimately. As Leonard Ravenhill used to say, "they know the Word of God, but do they know the God of the Word?" I Hope and pray this is not you, if it is you, then I hope and pray the Holy Ghost will convict you and lead you to the cross, where Christ is, and where his blood cleanses us from all sin, Past present and future.

Each of us has a Judas in us and a Peter in us. Judas' heart was on earthly treasures and not heavenly ones, he betrayed Jesus. Peter's heart was on his own personal protection and preservation, He did not trust fully in the Providence and teachings of Christ. Peter realized his unbelief and lack of faith and hypocrisy and repented, Judas did not he was remorseful and could not live with his sin, and never experienced the Blood atonement of the cross. One came to Humility and was exalted, while the other remained proud and was incapable of Humbling himself, and chose to die in his pride. Which are you? A Judas who will never admit they are wrong, or a Peter who admitted he was wrong and grew in Christ? This is a rhetorical question for all who read this not just you Giuliano. Do You Know Jesus as a theological person or as a real person who has the power to cleanse? We are not saved by "faith in Jesus" But we are saved by the "faith OF Jesus" which we trust in fully. He is real, and his blood is real, and cleanses us REALLY, not metaphorically.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16, KJV)

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes the Blood is Spiritual, But the effect of the Blood cleansing is very REAL and LIFE CHANGING. Sounds to me like you have never experienced the cleansing power of the blood? I do not know you personally to say this but there are many in the churches who believe doctrines that have never experienced and lived those doctrines and they ascribe them onto themselves by their mentality, but it is not a belief of the heart. They Know About Jesus and the cross, Believe in his divinity and claim to be Christians But they do not KNOW Jesus intimately. As Leonard Ravenhill used to say, "they know the Word of God, but do they know the God of the Word?" I Hope and pray this is not you, if it is you, then I hope and pray the Holy Ghost will convict you and lead you to the cross, where Christ is, and where his blood cleanses us from all sin, Past present and future.

Each of us has a Judas in us and a Peter in us. Judas' heart was on earthly treasures and not heavenly ones, he betrayed Jesus. Peter's heart was on his own personal protection and preservation, He did not trust fully in the Providence and teachings of Christ. Peter realized his unbelief and lack of faith and hypocrisy and repented, Judas did not he was remorseful and could not live with his sin, and never experienced the Blood atonement of the cross. One came to Humility and was exalted, while the other remained proud and was incapable of Humbling himself, and chose to die in his pride. Which are you? A Judas who will never admit they are wrong, or a Peter who admitted he was wrong and grew in Christ? This is a rhetorical question for all who read this not just you Giuliano. Do You Know Jesus as a theological person or as a real person who has the power to cleanse? We are not saved by "faith in Jesus" But we are saved by the "faith OF Jesus" which we trust in fully. He is real, and his blood is real, and cleanses us REALLY, not metaphorically.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16, KJV)

May I ask where you get the idea that Jesus had " faith " ?

Can you point me to a scripture stating Jesus had faith ?

 

[Giuliano]

Yes the Blood is Spiritual, But the effect of the Blood cleansing is very REAL and LIFE CHANGING. Sounds to me like you have never experienced the cleansing power of the blood? I do not know you personally to say this but there are many in the churches who believe doctrines that have never experienced and lived those doctrines and they ascribe them onto themselves by their mentality, but it is not a belief of the heart. They Know About Jesus and the cross, Believe in his divinity and claim to be Christians But they do not KNOW Jesus intimately. As Leonard Ravenhill used to say, "they know the Word of God, but do they know the God of the Word?" I Hope and pray this is not you, if it is you, then I hope and pray the Holy Ghost will convict you and lead you to the cross, where Christ is, and where his blood cleanses us from all sin, Past present and future.

Each of us has a Judas in us and a Peter in us. Judas' heart was on earthly treasures and not heavenly ones, he betrayed Jesus. Peter's heart was on his own personal protection and preservation, He did not trust fully in the Providence and teachings of Christ. Peter realized his unbelief and lack of faith and hypocrisy and repented, Judas did not he was remorseful and could not live with his sin, and never experienced the Blood atonement of the cross. One came to Humility and was exalted, while the other remained proud and was incapable of Humbling himself, and chose to die in his pride. Which are you? A Judas who will never admit they are wrong, or a Peter who admitted he was wrong and grew in Christ? This is a rhetorical question for all who read this not just you Giuliano. Do You Know Jesus as a theological person or as a real person who has the power to cleanse? We are not saved by "faith in Jesus" But we are saved by the "faith OF Jesus" which we trust in fully. He is real, and his blood is real, and cleanses us REALLY, not metaphorically.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16, KJV)

Thanks for the answer. Some people worry me when they think it was Jesus' physical blood.

I said I didn't know what many people mean by it; and now you've done it again, talking about "the Blood atonement of the cross." That expression is not Biblical. I prefer to use Biblical terms.

Judas partook of the Body and Blood of Christ -- at the Last Supper. I'd say he ate drank unworthily, not perceiving the spiritual aspects of what he was doing.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

There are people today who say the wine of Communion is only wine and the bread is only bread. They do not discern Lord's Body.

 

[David H.]

May I ask where you get the idea that Jesus had " faith " ?

Can you point me to a scripture stating Jesus had faith ?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9
We are saved by faith that is not our own, so Whose faith saves us? It is The faith of Christ.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil. 3:9
It is the faith of Christ that is our righteousness, If righteousness comes from man's faith in Christ it is a work, It is His faith that saves us and justifies us, as found in Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16)
This continues into Gal 2:20,
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Point I am making here is that our faith IN Him is based not on our mental belief... Christianity is not a mental acknowledgement but a heart belief in the person Jesus Christ who is Faithful, We believe His Testimony and his testimony is true, Because he is the faithful and true witness.... And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (Rev. 3:14) What this means is that He is with us (Emmanuel) and his faithfulness saves us. He is real, His cleansing is real, His Presence is real, and he is Knocking on the hearts of all in this age who have locked him out... Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev. 3:20) Salvation is not some theological concept but a real person we can Know on an intimate level and this begins by understanding that HIS faith saves and justifies us, as it is not of ourselves lest we should boast...

Our salvation thus comes not from within us but entirely from Him and His faithfulness, to see faith coming from within us to take credit for salvation ourselves, and inevitably leads to pride and condemnation, but when we see it comes from Him we can only Praise the one who graciously saved us.

The following article expresses this extremely well...
What do these verses tell us? Do they tell us that we do the work ourselves? No, because we will fail everytime! These verses are telling us that it is CHRIST HIMSELF who does the work in us. This is the power of the faith of Jesus. This is the power of the gospel! Having the faith of Jesus means to have Jesus live His life and faith in us. Through our daily surrendering to the will of God, and daily forsaking sin, the Lord will dwell in us through His Spirit. Thus, having Jesus in us, making us partakers of the divine nature, enables us to go forward, doing works of mercy and love and to 'keep the commandments of God'. This is the power that the majority of Christians are missing in their lives.

What is the Faith of Jesus Christ?.

read the link it is a short read.

 

[David H.]

I said I didn't know what many people mean by it; and now you've done it again, talking about "the Blood atonement of the cross." That expression is not Biblical. I prefer to use Biblical terms.

Blood atonement is an Old testament concept which was a foreshadow of the death of Christ, the Lamb of God. Actually what Christ did on the cross is more than just atonement which means to cover sin, But he actually removes the sin, and cleanses us by His Blood.

You are right to point this out as there are some sects who only believe in atonement over total cleansing and inevitably they fall into works based salvation. For Example, Ellen G. White teaches this and the various SDA churches have fallen into this. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (1 John 3:5) This is not done by our effort, but by our surrender to Him as a person.

 

[Giuliano]

Blood atonement is an Old testament concept which was a foreshadow of the death of Christ, the Lamb of God. Actually what Christ did on the cross is more than just atonement which means to cover sin, But he actually removes the sin, and cleanses us by His Blood.

You are right to point this out as there are some sects who only believe in atonement over total cleansing and inevitably they fall into works based salvation. For Example, Ellen G. White teaches this and the various SDA churches have fallen into this. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (1 John 3:5) This is not done by our effort, but by our surrender to Him as a person.

I think you remain confused about "atonement" in the Old Testament era. I suggest talking with a rabbi about it.

 

[David H.]

I think you remain confused about "atonement" in the Old Testament era. I suggest talking with a rabbi about it.

I Think you need to learn how to use a concordance.

kaphar, verb,
I. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

1. (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
   
   
2. (Piel)
   
   1. to cover over, pacify, propitiate
      
      
   2. to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
      
      
   3. to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
      
3. (Pual)
   
   1. to be covered over
      
      
   2. to make atonement for
      
4. (Hithpael) to be covered
   

 

[quietthinker]

Blood atonement is an Old testament concept which was a foreshadow of the death of Christ, the Lamb of God. Actually what Christ did on the cross is more than just atonement which means to cover sin, But he actually removes the sin, and cleanses us by His Blood.

The Old Testament Sanctuary is a type of the Plan of Redemption. Every stage was a representation. It did not stop at the sacrifice of the lamb at the altar....it continued, the priest also being a type .....going into the holy place regularly and then once a year only the high priest entered the most holy place (the second apartment) Coming out afterward and blessing the people. (who incidentally also had a role.... ie, sincere soul searching) All this has relevance.

How is it that todays Churches dismiss this? ....and because they dismiss it their understanding of the Plan of Redemption is restricted. This restriction imagines all manner of skewed interpretations which had they taken a closer look at the ancient sanctuary processes they might have avoided.

 

[Stumpmaster]

May I ask where you get the idea that Jesus had " faith " ?

Can you point me to a scripture stating Jesus had faith ?

Hi Christophany,
It's a given that Jesus has faith, especially since He is the Author and Finisher of faith. It is fantastic and true that our faith is both in Jesus and of Him, (use your concordance) which is why He commends the Pergamos ekklesia for not denying His faith.
Rev 2:12-13 And to the angel of the ekklesia in Pergamos write; These things says he which has the sharp sword with two edges; (13) I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I was watching a children's cartoon (yeah I know call me silly) of Judas' betrayal of Jesus. When Judas saw how Jesus was getting treated and abused, Judas said "please forgive me". Then he given back the 30 coins to the Jewish leaders. Of course after that he committed suicide

Hi Lavender Purple.
Whilst Judas was filled with remorse and repented of accepting payment for his act of betrayal it is obvious from his suicide that he did not repent of his overall sinfulness and become a new man in Christ totally free of the burden of his sin, his only act of repentance being to admit to his mistake.

Effectively it was Judas who purchased the Field of Blood since the 30 silver coins used still belonged to him, being his earnings which was now blood money and could not be returned.

Act 1:18-19 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. (19) And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

Mat 27:3-8 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see you to that. (5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. (6) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. (7) And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. (8) Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.