Was Jerusalem "Babylon the Great" 2,000 years ago?

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Davidpt

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No. Babylon of Rev is a metaphor for deceived people who worship a false God during the trib. Babylon is NOT a literal city. Babylon is also not a literal woman.

Babylon means confusion in the Greek. It is religious confusion as to whom is God and is not God.

I don't know if you are correct or not, but assuming you are, we have to keep in mind Revelation 18:24. Does your view fit with what that verse records?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
 

ewq1938

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I don't know if you are correct or not, but assuming you are, we have to keep in mind Revelation 18:24. Does your view fit with what that verse records?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


All slain people upon the Earth can't have been killed in any one city but a symbolic city symbolizing false religion and confusion could match that verse.
 
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Davy

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The Revelation 18 destruction of the Babylon Harlot is about Christ's coming to destroy its OPERATION and center of control in JERUSALEM at the end of this world.

JERUSALEM is where it is talking about regarding the killing of God's prophets.. and also points to the wicked Jews who had Lord Jesus crucified...

Rev 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
KJV

Luke 11:47-51
47 "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."
KJV


With that idea of "generation", Jesus is pointing to offspring, their birth origin, which involved foreigners of the Canaanite which crept into Israel's priesthood centuries ago.


Acts 7:51-53
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of Whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
KJV

1 Thess 2:14-15
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
KJV

Rev 17:6
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
KJV


Anyone saying that is about Rome ought to have their head examined.
 

Marty fox

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It's not though, Rev.17 is about the LAST SIEGE of Jerusalem for this world, by the devil himself. It will be the 28th siege of Jerusalem's history.

So just focus on 1st century Jerusalem is actually a show of being misinformed about the history of Jerusalem and those previous 27 times that false ones have sieged and taken it.
Your confusement is what actually is Jerusalem?

When Jesus said

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal physical city Jesus was talking about the Spiritual leadership of the city apostate people. These people were supposed to guide the people to their Messiah but instead they had the people reject and kill their Messiah and state that they "have no king but Cesar" and "let His blood be on us and our children".

Yes the literal city was destroyed and rebuilt but the spiritual city was destroyed and never to be built again. first century Jerusalem was judged because of her spiritual condition.
 
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Davidpt

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Your confusement is what actually is Jerusalem?

When Jesus said

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal physical city Jesus was talking about the Spiritual leadership of the city apostate people. These people were supposed to guide the people to their Messiah but instead they had the people reject and kill their Messiah and state that they "have no king but Cesar" and "let His blood be on us and our children".

Yes the literal city was destroyed and rebuilt but the spiritual city was destroyed and never to be built again. first century Jerusalem was judged because of her spiritual condition.

Unfortunately, especially in the event you could be correct here, I have no clue what you are meaning here. Maybe you should give us your interpretation of some of REvelation 18, such as the following? So that we can see how it aligns with what you are proposing.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


Revelation 18:9 ¶And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.


In order for your view to make any sense you have to treat all of this as spiritual then show how this fits the literal city was destroyed---but the spiritual city was destroyed and never to be built again.

Your view makes no sense to me. Because on one hand you have it involving a literal city. While on the other hand you have it involving a spiritual city. Except it can't be involving both.
 

Marty fox

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If that's true, and the fact this same Jerusalem is back on the map again, so to speak, how then would that make the following true?

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all .


I'm pretty certain I grasp what--and shall be found no more at all--means. But do you grasp what that means as well? I have my doubts if you think this was meaning Jerusalem 2000 years ago. Maybe animal sacrificing hasn't resumed, but they are certainly not Christ followers in that region today, at least not yet anyway. Nor were many of them Christ followers 2000 years ago. And this verse says shall be found no more at all. That can only mean one thing, and that is, exactly what it says. Nothing cryptic about it. Clearly then, Revelation 18:21 hasn't been fulfilled yet because once it is fulfilled, whatever great Babylon represents , it shall be found no more at all. as in , as if it had never existed. It will be gone for forever to never be found again, in any sense.
Your confusement is what actually is Jerusalem?

When Jesus said

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal physical city Jesus was talking about the Spiritual leadership of the city apostate people. These people were supposed to guide the people to their Messiah but instead they had the people reject and kill their Messiah and state that they "have no king but Cesar" and "let His blood be on us and our children".

Yes the literal city was destroyed and rebuilt but the spiritual city was destroyed and never to be built again. first century Jerusalem was judged because of her spiritual condition.
 

Marty fox

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I don't know if you are correct or not, but assuming you are, we have to keep in mind Revelation 18:24. Does your view fit with what that verse records?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Jesus told us who that was Himself

Matthew 23
34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;
 
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Marty fox

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All slain people upon the Earth can't have been killed in any one city but a symbolic city symbolizing false religion and confusion could match that verse.
Its not saying that they were all killed in one city but just that the wrath of them will come upon that city
 
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Marty fox

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Unfortunately, especially in the event you could be correct here, I have no clue what you are meaning here. Maybe you should give us your interpretation of some of REvelation 18, such as the following? So that we can see how it aligns with what you are proposing.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


Revelation 18:9 ¶And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.


In order for your view to make any sense you have to treat all of this as spiritual then show how this fits the literal city was destroyed---but the spiritual city was destroyed and never to be built again.

Your view makes no sense to me. Because on one hand you have it involving a literal city. While on the other hand you have it involving a spiritual city. Except it can't be involving both.

Verse 18-God called the saints out of Jerusalem right before the siege when the Roman army first withdrew and then returned.


Jerusalem was a major trading city which housed over a million people during the pass over thus when she was destroyed it would of had a major economic impact.

Revelation chapter 18 is a sarcastic drudge of the destruction of Babylon the great, see the similarities with Ezekiel chapter 16 which is about Jerusalem.

Yes the literal city was destroyed due to her harlotry and this brought to an end for good the Old Testament temple and sacrificial age. Thus the spiritual sin bought about the literal punishment.

What exactly was Jesus calling Jerusalem in the verse below the literal city of the spiritual leadership of the city?

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 

CTK

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I don't know if you are correct or not, but assuming you are, we have to keep in mind Revelation 18:24. Does your view fit with what that verse records?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
For what it is worth, here is my take on that verse:


Revelation 18:21-24

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

As John continues to witness the vision, a mighty angel takes a great millstone and casts it into the sea, declaring, “With such violence, Babylon the great city will be thrown down, never to be found again.” This powerful act is deeply symbolic, representing the complete and final destruction of Babylon’s corrupt system. Just as a millstone sinks swiftly and irreversibly to the depths of the sea, Babylon’s influence and deception will vanish forever. Her fall is not a physical collapse but a spiritual judgment, ensuring that her defiance against God will never rise again.

The angel then describes the aftermath of Babylon’s destruction, painting a picture of total desolation: “The sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will be heard in you no more.” The vibrant culture of Babylon, filled with celebrations and allure, symbolizes the deceptive pleasures and false promises that enticed the nations. These sounds will cease forever, marking the end of her seductive power over the hearts of humanity.

“A craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more.” This statement goes beyond literal commerce or industry. It represents the end of Babylon’s ability to produce false doctrines, exploit human labor, or perpetuate systems of greed and corruption. The spiritual "machinery" that drove her empire of deception is forever dismantled, leaving her empty and lifeless.

“The light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more.” Babylon’s light—once a beacon of worldly power and pride—is extinguished, symbolizing the absence of God’s truth and the extinguishing of her influence. Even the joy of union and relationships, represented by bridegrooms and brides, will vanish, exposing the hollowness of a system that prioritized self-indulgence over genuine love and spiritual connection.

The angel reveals the reasons for Babylon’s judgment: “Your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.” Babylon's merchants symbolize the leaders and influencers who perpetuated her corrupt system, prioritizing material gain and self-interest over truth and righteousness. Their "sorcery" represents the deceptive allure of wealth, power, and false religion, which led nations astray and turned their hearts away from God.

Finally, the chapter closes with a solemn and sobering statement: “In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Babylon’s ultimate crime is her persecution of God’s people and her role in the suffering and death of the faithful. Her judgment is a vindication of those who stood firm in their allegiance to God, even in the face of great opposition and oppression.
 
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grafted branch

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All slain people upon the Earth can't have been killed in any one city but a symbolic city symbolizing false religion and confusion could match that verse.
What are your thoughts on the blood of Uriah the Hittite?

2 Samuel 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

David was clearly responsible for Uriah’s blood but David was also clearly a believer. If all the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon then what about David, is he in Babylon?
 
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ewq1938

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Its not saying that they were all killed in one city but just that the wrath of them will come upon that city


That's not what it says though.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



If Babylon is a literal city, Jerusalem, it's impossible for "all that were slain upon the Earth" to have been found in her/the city.

Therefore, this Babylon city is not literal, and cannot be Jerusalem. It is as I said, a symbolic city representing religious confusion regarding the worship of a false god. It is the end times false god scripture speaks of in various passages.

Babylon is not Jerusalem but it was a type or shadow of something that would come but ppl always, always fall for teh shadow and never see the bigger picture.

Rome was the shadow of the global beast system. It is not nor will it be the Rev 13 beast.
Jerusalem was the shadow of the religious confusion Babylon. It is not nor will it be Babylon of Rev.
 

ewq1938

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What are your thoughts on the blood of Uriah the Hittite?

2 Samuel 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

David was clearly responsible for Uriah’s blood but David was also clearly a believer. If all the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon then what about David, is he in Babylon?


Babylon is symbolic. My argument is against a literal interpretation, especially to identify Jerusalem as Babylon in Rev. David was confused by lust and greed but IMO was forgiven by God. It's not really related to identifying Babylon in Rev.
 

NotTheRock

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All slain people upon the Earth can't have been killed in any one city but a symbolic city symbolizing false religion and confusion could match that verse.

Does Babylon the Great represent Satan's worldly system?
 

grafted branch

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Babylon is symbolic. My argument is against a literal interpretation, especially to identify Jerusalem as Babylon in Rev. David was confused by lust and greed but IMO was forgiven by God. It's not really related to identifying Babylon in Rev.
I agree, David’s sins were forgiven, which means the blood of Uriah was paid for by Christ. Since all the blood is found in Babylon your view needs to reconcile how it would be possible that Uriah’s blood isn’t found in Babylon. You can just ignore this but then you don’t have a convincing argument.

Here’s how I see it. In the Old Testament if a righteous person was killed, their blood would be on the murderer’s hands.

2 Chronicles 24:22 Thus Joash the king remembered not the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but slew his son. And when he died, he said, The LORD look upon it, and require it.

Under the new covenant we are to forgive, we don’t expect our blood to be on someone else’s hands.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

All the blood of the prophets and saints under the old covenant is said to have occurred by way of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:34-35. All the blood of the prophets and saints under the new covenant are forgiven by the prophets and saints that are slain.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Uriah’s blood that David was forgiven of was paid for by Christ. Jerusalem becomes the scapegoat that has the transgression put on them and is released into the wilderness. This is why we see in Revelation 17:3 John carried away into the wilderness and sees in verse 6 a woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs.

I think we all would agree that the blood of Uriah was paid for by Christ in order for David to be forgiven. Would you say that Babylon is the scapegoat? If not then what is your explanation for Uriah’s blood not being in Babylon?

Leviticus 16:21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
 
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Davidpt

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What are your thoughts on the blood of Uriah the Hittite?

2 Samuel 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

David was clearly responsible for Uriah’s blood but David was also clearly a believer. If all the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon then what about David, is he in Babylon?

You have to keep in mind Babylon is portrayed as unrepentant, defiant, and continuously engaged in the shedding of innocent blood. Does that fit David throughout his life? No. He was repentant and God eventually forgave him. But he had consequences for his actions to pay in the meantime, such as the death of his child with Bathsheba. Therefore, no, based on that David is the opposite of Babylon, that he was repentant while Babylon never is, ever, David is not in Babylon.

It was an interesting point you brought up, though.
 

Marty fox

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I agree, David’s sins were forgiven, which means the blood of Uriah was paid for by Christ. Since all the blood is found in Babylon your view needs to reconcile how it would be possible that Uriah’s blood isn’t found in Babylon. You can just ignore this but then you don’t have a convincing argument.

Here’s how I see it. In the Old Testament if a righteous person was killed, their blood would be on the murderer’s hands.

2 Chronicles 24:22 Thus Joash the king remembered not the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but slew his son. And when he died, he said, The LORD look upon it, and require it.

Under the new covenant we are to forgive, we don’t expect our blood to be on someone else’s hands.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

All the blood of the prophets and saints under the old covenant is said to have occurred by way of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:34-35. All the blood of the prophets and saints under the new covenant are forgiven by the prophets and saints that are slain.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Uriah’s blood that David was forgiven of was paid for by Christ. Jerusalem becomes the scapegoat that has the transgression put on them and is released into the wilderness. This is why we see in Revelation 17:3 John carried away into the wilderness and sees in verse 6 a woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs.

I think we all would agree that the blood of Uriah was paid for by Christ in order for David to be forgiven. Would you say that Babylon is the scapegoat? If not then what is your explanation for Uriah’s blood not being in Babylon?

Leviticus 16:21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Amazing and convincing post
 
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