True Trinity.

[JustAskin]

@JustAskin

I am going to unequivocally show you that the Christ is indeed God. And that there are Three that make up one Being, one God.

I don’t think you know what the word ‘Unequivocally’ means, in that case. There is no saying of ‘One God’ in the scriptures in the way you are misrepresenting it. The wording is designed to say, ‘ONLY [one] GOD’.. there is only one God... yes, there IS only one God: The Father:

• ‘Father,’ Jesus said, ‘This means [everlasting] Life, that they should believe in YOU, the ONLY TRUE GOD...’

It is not possible to claim that Jesus was talking to himself and referencing the singular individual as Father (‘Father: You’).

As trinity struggles to claim that Jesus is both man and God, and Father and Son as one, and as three with the Spirit of the Father, and different aspects of each at the same time ... and whatever gobbledygook it can come up with next, this verse is UNEQUIVOCALLY stating that ‘The Father’ is the ONLY TRUE GOD. You will note that it does not DENY that there are others CALLED ‘God’s. But that it says there is only one TRUE God.

Why is this? It is because the word (or term, or title), ‘GOD’ is JUST THAT... ‘God’, per se, is NOT A PERSON, but a TITLE... just like you might say, ‘King’, ‘Monarch’, ‘Judge’, ‘Ruler’, ‘Lord’, ‘Master’... it is a TITLE... applied by CONTEXT to a PERSON or thing in a situation that requires such reverence. In OUR CASE we are speaking of our DEITY (the one whom we worship)... he is our GOD (in Deity). Or we might say the judge in his courtroom is ‘GOD’ because he [makes/abides by] the rules and judges the outcome. He has the final say and applies the law with impunity. In the case of a human judge, why, of course there are ‘Gods’ greater above him... and ‘Gods’ above them, in pyramid reaching a peak until there is ONLY ONE GOD ABOVE ALL THOSE CALLED GOD below him... this last is the ALL POWERFUL, ALL MIGHTY, the Father, whom, ALONE, we worship. Jesus gave us the model prayer stating how we should address him, reverence him, admit our sins to him, be penitent to him, ask for what we need in righteousness, humbleness, truth, sincerity, and piousness (which is to say: ‘In the name of Jesus Christ’), and close of with an agreement that we mean it (‘Amen’).
Can you show in that model prayer where THREE PERSONS as one God is being worshipped in prayer? No, for a start only the Father is mentioned as being prayed to.. Jesus is mentioned as the MINDSET that we should have in reverencing the Father... and there is absolutely no mention of a THIRD PERSON.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is true... The Almighty God created all things by the power of his Holy Spirit (the only two of your trinity persons... it can hardly be stated that ‘GOD’ and the Holy Spirit are two persons of the Holy Spirit is mentioned SEPARATELY to the same person you call ‘God’ else the Holy Spirit is a FORTH person since ‘GOD’ is already THREE (by trinity).

In the beginning was the Word,...

Your error, along with all trinity believers, is to claim the SAME MEANING for the word, ‘God’ in all verses. Suppose I say ’The Judge Judge‘.. what do I mean - what on earth does that mean... but really, it’s not hard: the first judge is the ‘ACTOR’, the acting person, ‘The Judge’. The second is the NAME of the ACTOR, the Person, coincidingly having the same title/name... no, it isn’t unfathomable.
And so, and as we know, the word/term of ‘God’, CAN BE ‘Mighty One’ (see Strong’s concordance). Reading how you write it makes no sense... you CANNOT BE GOD and BE WITH GOD... So it is easy to see that the translators were trinitarian and DELIBERATELY mistranslated the verses.
It is actually saying that:

• ‘In the beginning was GODS WORD’... (‘Let there be light’. You know this because it’s written in Genesis). God’s WORD is not his Son... otherwise how is his Son ’God’ if the Son is a PROPERTY (‘OF’) of GOD!
• ‘And that word was with God’... Yes, Gods word - his thought to carry out the creation - was certainly in his mind... his Word was WITH HIM... just as your intent to do a [great] deed is WITH YOU before you do it.
• ’And the Word was GOD’... clearly, this means ‘The Word of God was a MIGHTY WORD’.. obvious really... to BRING INTO BEING (‘Father’) a monumental creation requires a MIGHTY WORD, indeed!!!

If Jesus is the WORD of God from the beginning, why did Jesus LEARN THE TORAH with the scribes?

Why was he TAUGHT BY GOD if he was God?

This shows that there are more than one Person being spoken of here.

If you have a trinity of co-equal persons as the ultimate deity (or God, if you like), how can you speak of ONLY TWO and sideline the third - is that not ANTI-HOLY-SPIRIT... isn’t that blasphemy in denying your third (‘God’)... is the a Holy Spirit happy to be sidelined, afterall, There’s not even a single reference to ‘Praise, Honor, Glorify the Holy Spirit’, let alone ’Worship the Holy Spirit’, in any Scripture.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.[John 1:14]

Have you no understanding of literature? Have you not heard the saying:

• ‘To put Flesh on your thoughts’

What was the Father’s thoughts on the aspect of a Saviour (Isaiah 42:1)? Was it not to send HIS SERVANT... to do his will... IS ALMIGHTY GOD A SERVANT? To whom?
SO, it is clear that the WORD the Father spoke in Isaiah 42:1 (and elsewhere) BECAME TRUE... GOD put ‘FLESH’ on bones of his word - and the Saviour servant CAME.
But don’t forget the term, ‘Only Begotten’... The WHOLE of John 1 up to verse 18 (or 19, I don’t have a bible on me!) is a SUMMARY... a SWEEPING SUMMARY. The Book was written LONG AFTER Jesus had gone up to heaven so John was able to talk in the PAST TENSE. Yes, the disciples HAD certainly beheld his glory, and known now (remember they nearly all had doubts about him!) that he was the messiah... that he WAS the Holy one sent by the Father. And they heard the words from the Father:

1. ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’
2. ‘This day I have become to you a Father, and you have become to me, a Son’

How do you say that the meaning of these are not presenting a declaration of:

1. GOD praising and glorifying a human (Why would God praise and glorify a person within himself as if there could have been a chance that the person within God could have sinned!!)
2. ADOPTION... these words are certainly those uses in an ADOPTION Ceremony (Was GOD adopting a god within himself... how?)

The same Word in John 1:1 is the same Word here. The Word, the Son of God, who is also called God in verse 1.

Jesus is ‘the word of God’:

• I have no idea what on earth is meant by ‘Incarnation’, I reality
• As the fulfilment of the promised servant/Saviour
• The Father taught him what to say and thus he speaks what the Father taught him (‘I can only speak what the Father taught me’). Jesus speaks the WORDS OF GOD... that does not make a Jesus the God who taught him the words to say... how can that be: Did the prophets who spoke the words of god declare themselves to BE GOD; Did the messenger angels who spoke the words of God claiming they were God; Did Jonah claim to be God when he spoke the words of God to the ninevenians?
• Jesus speaks the words of God - taughtto him BY GOD - and you declare him TO BE GOD? How?

 

[JustAskin]

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created,... [Colossians 1:15-19]

It is already well known that these verses are mistranslated by Trinitarians who were forced to do so. Huge carbuncle errors arise in the reading. I’m sure you see them but ignore them and force yourself to fit - but you know they do not:

• You already know that it was God who created all things and that God is the Father, and that ‘Father’ means ‘Creator’... so there is a full circle, closed loop of truth:
  • God is creator -> Creator is Father -> Father is God -> God is...
  • There is no room for two others as Father...
• The verse wrongfully implies Jesus created all things - but this destroys the claim that God, the Father, made all things...
• The first sentence is speaking of Jesus
• The next PARAGRAPH down to ‘through him and for him’ are speaking of Almighty God. You already agreed that GOD created all things so you must agree it is talking about God. Jesus most certainly cannot anywhere claim that He created the world and all within... unless he is going to claim that he is the Father (but then he declares GOD as the Father... see, your circles don’t join!!)
• The rest declares Jesus’ PRESENT STATE in Heaven. The term, ‘Before all things’ means, ‘Greater than all things’ and is in line with other verses such as Jesus saying that he is ‘BEFORE Abraham’ and John the Baptist saying that Jesus was ‘Before Him’... they mean, ’Before‘, as in ‘with greatness’. Jesus is NOW in greatness ahead (before) all things as he is seated ‘bringing the world to rights’ using the power of God invested in him by a God: ‘For the Father has put all things into his hands... excepting HIM (The Father) who put all things into his hands!!’ How is Jesus, almighty God, if Almighty God gives him power for a short time.. a God that IS is never without power not is given power!

Again, here is another clear reference to the Son. It was by Him that all things were created. In Genesis 1 it says that God created all things. So, Jesus is indeed God.

This is pure nonsense. The two statements are incongruous! They absolute juxtaposed. What ever you think it means, it also points to the NON-Involvement of the Father, whose title of ‘Father’ actually means:

• ’He who creates‘, and
• ’He who brings into being!’

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I am not Jehovah witness nor any labelled doctrinal belief because the truth has no label.

• Truth is just Truth
• Truth is Integrity
• God’s word is Truth

The Holy Spirit is ‘the Spirit of Truth’ - which is why it must not be grieved!! If the truth is stressed and frustrated in an attempt to destroyed it then there is no reality! All would be confusion... And:

• ‘God is not a God of confusion’

Arians... another label... I’m not ‘Arian’ either! But you asked about JW’s. JW’s believe that Jesus was an Angel before coming as man... that’s tosh!!! JW’s also believe some other weird unscriptural things such as their elders being the prophesied 144,000 to rule with Christ... despite there being way more than 144,000 proclaimed such elders (fight - fight!!!)

JW’s do believe that Jesus was a Man, and not God... Yes, that part is the same for me... if that’s what you try to label me with as ‘Arian’, forget it - You are just attempting to box me and label me... no fear, sir!

My expression of truth is of the scriptures. The purpose of the creation of God is to mirror the unlimited Spirit Heaven to a limited physical World (‘earth’... not just planet ‘Earth’, as many misbelieve) Such a physical world is to be governed by a mirror of the Heavenly order, which is:

• A king
• Administrators
• Messengers
• Workers

God, the Father (not ‘God the Father’), is King over Heaven and subsequently over earth (creation) also.
His administrators are the most holy angels, wise, intelligent, powerful in force and energy. They only do the Fathers Will, not in slavery, but joyfully in reverence (They ’SEE the face of God’). These govern over aspects of the created world: Principalities, Policies, ...lesser government orders. The Angel that came to be known as ‘Satan’ was ‘Head Governor’, and keeper (‘Steward’) over creation, awaiting the HUMAN KING to be seated, which is why he could offer Jesus the principalities of the world, saying:

• ‘All this I will give to you if you now down and worship me.... it is MINE TO GIVE to whom I will’

Jesus COULD have been tempted to take it from the STEWARD who knew, as an Angel, he would have to hand it over to its rightful king at some point in time. That’s what a STEWARD does: he is a PLACEHOLDER awaiting the true recipient. Indeed, the scriptures says that the world to come will NOT BE GOVERNED BY ANGELS... why? Because it will be governed by HUMANS, glorified humans as Jesus was glorified with immortality.

See, the angelic order is to be replaced by a human order. Spirit Sons of God replaces by a Human Sons of God.

(The Angelic order: Some angels ‘Left their Stations’ and rebelled with ‘Satan’... They made BODIES for themselves and put their own spirit into it and took of human females all they desired and bred Nephilims... mutant humans!!
Now you read that the Angels ‘made bodies’ for themselves. What then when God said, ‘Let us make man in our image’... trinity says he was ‘talking to himself...’ (laugh!!!). No, remember that the angels are wise, intelligent, creative, can build as well as destroy, can consider, have high level thinking abilities... they are not mindless Spirits. So, God spoke to them in counsel for a creature who would be LIKE THEM... able to govern, command, oversee, think, create, design,... BUT more than the level of an Angel - the very IMAGE of Almighty God, the Father... that is in addition: to LOVE, To Master, To RULE. So this was agreed and God gave the order to create a human Being... ONLY THE BODY... proper functioning BODY... there was NO SPIRIT in the body to enliven it (remember that the Demon angels had to put THEIR OWN SPIRIT into the bodies they created!!) Then Almighty God ENLIVENED the BODY of the Man with HIS Holy Spirit (The Breath of life)

• ‘And the Man BECAME A LIVING SOUL’

Before the Spirit was in him, Adam (‘Man’) was not a LIVING SOUL!!!

Where is trinity in the Torah? We see:

• God
• The Holy Spirit OF GOD

1. This not three persons...
2. This is not even two persons (Spirit OF God)
3. This is ONE person (The Father)

What do you think:

• ‘Father’ means:
  • ‘Creator’
  • ‘He who brings into being’
  • ‘He that gives life’
  • ‘He that is the Head’
  • ‘The law maker’

So how do you say that ‘God is three’ when it is patently clear that the Father is:

• The Creator, even by your own belief
• The giver of the Ten Commandment Laws to Moses
• The Judge (Ultimate...!)
• The Head, the ‘God above all whom are called ‘Gods’’ (I do not deny that OTHERS are CALLED ‘Gods’ because they RULE over CONTEXT of things:
  • A judge is GOD OF HIS COURTROOM.. for instance!
  • A Father is God in his household
  • Etc.

I can go in but I have things to do..



I am not ‘denying Christ’ but yes, ‘denying Christ as YHWH’. There is no such thing in any verse of the scriptures: Old Testament or new.
However, in case you set a trap:

• God, the Father, WILL GIVE JESUS CHRIST the name that is ABOVE ALL NAMES... yes, ‘YHWH’ is that name

But that is a Prophesy to come after Jesus achieves all that The Father requires of him. Yes, ‘YHWH’, as a TITLE, renders the owner as EVERLASTING KING, an ‘I Am’ which is to say, ‘Never changing’, ‘always WILL BE’...henceforth, in Jesus’ case.
Note Revelations defines Almighty God as:

• ‘Is, Was, and always will be’

But defines Jesus Christ as:

• ‘I am he who was DEAD but now AM ALIVE for evermore’

And you know that God cannot die.

Also, God, the Father is seated permanently on his throne in impenetrable light (absolute power, authority, and sinlessness).

But Jesus STANDS in front of the throne... There is no place for a GOD who sits in all power and authority - and is ALSO standing subservient to himself in front of that power and authority (in front of himself?) as a Meek and mutilated Lamb.

Both Jesus and The Father receive Glory, Honor, and Praise... BUT ONLY The Father receives WORSHIP!!!

I've pretty much already read your posts just like the one above. With all due respect you know what Scripture says just not what it means. Also, no one really wants a short dissertation. Way too many points to address at once.

 

[Grailhunter]

@JustAskin @justbyfaith

Just asking this:
1. What is left for God the Father? If Christ is the creator God and everything has been turned over to Him, what is left for God the Father. Christ is Almighty, Christ is the judge, All authority has been turned over to Christ, He is Alpha and Omega? What is left for God the Father? Is God the Father just the janitor in Heaven....sweeping the aisles?

2. Then again, if the common formula for the Trinity is true, can we contribute any one authority or principle or act to anyone God?

3. One God? Who was crucified on the cross?

4. One God? Who begot? Who was begotten?

5. One God? Was Christ the Son of God before creation?

6. If so, should God the Father say Son of Myself? My only begotten self? I begot myself?

7. One God? Who was Christ talking to, when He was in the garden? Himself? Not my will be done, but your will. What does that mean?

8. Christ said, "the Father is greater than I" Was He saying that He was greater than Himself? Or not as great as Himself?

 

[JustAskin]

I've pretty much already read your posts just like the one above. With all due respect you know what Scripture says just not what it means. Also, no one really wants a short dissertation. Way too many points to address at once.

With all due respect, I can write so much exactly because I understand the scriptures.
If you can show me one single thing that I said that isn’t true then I might start taking you seriously... but so far, I cannot find anything you said as worthy of revision of my belief. There’s a good reason for that... truth is one thing... truth cannot be broken so as Pontius Pilate said, ‘What I have written is what I have written’ (from what I’m inspired to write).

One thing though, without opposition like yourself I might not have looked so deeply into scriptures... so thank you!!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

With all due respect, I can write so much exactly because I understand the scriptures.

I'm simply asking you not to post a shotgun response due to the fact it's a desperate attempt to try to give a fatal blow to your "opponent" and because most won't read a long post. Shotgun responses are by nature weak.

If you can show me one single thing that I said that isn’t true then I might start taking you seriously...

I'll get to refuting you once you present me with one thing at a time, and I will show you. It is apparent you are merely cutting and pasting your responses from some file on your computer, correct?

As for your "then I might start taking you seriously" is a rather unChristian remark. Can you leave off with that? No need to go on a belittling objective. Keep in mind it is your error I will make my polemic against, not your person. You do the same. (Btw, many on here conflate the two and are incapable of realizing the difference.)

but so far, I cannot find anything you said as worthy of revision of my belief.

That would be due to the fact I haven't attempted to refute you yet. Right? Let's keep things honest here. Your perceived victory is quite premature, baseless and presumptuous.

There’s a good reason for that... truth is one thing... truth cannot be broken so as Pontius Pilate said, ‘What I have written is what I have written’ (from what I’m inspired to write).

One thing though, without opposition like yourself I might not have looked so deeply into scriptures... so thank you!!

I'm sorry my friend, but your errant takes aren't deep Scriptural understandings, they are the same superficial errors JW's and other Arian sects make, including Arius himself.

That said, and no offense, but it is apparent doing this will involve dealing with some inflated pride coming through your statements.

 

[Grailhunter]

John 17:21-22 KJV
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:21-22 NASB
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

In your mind does the words “us” and “we” mean one to you?

Is the one we will be like, does that mean that all on earth will become one person?

Or will we be united?

 

[JustAskin]

@JustAskin @justbyfaith

Just asking this:
1. What is left for God the Father? If Christ is the creator God and everything has been turned over to Him, what is left for God the Father. Christ is Almighty, Christ is the judge, All authority has been turned over to Christ, He is Alpha and Omega? What is left for God the Father? Is God the Father just the janitor in Heaven....sweeping the aisles?

The Father NEVER loses anything... He is ALWAYS the owner. Think of a shepherd who is given a flock of sheep to look after. Even as the shepherd has charge of the sheep, the sheep STILL belong to the OWNER.
You should notice the words:

• ‘Everything is put under his feet ...except HIM who put everything under his feet’

You will see this illustrated in Pharoah giving Joseph charge over the famine in Egypt. Everything was left to Joseph to manage - excepting the throne of Pharoah... Pharoah is STILL Pharoah...

And Mordeciah in the Book of Esther. He was given full charge to write any edict he needed in order to save the Jews... everything except an edict to make himself king ... actually, an edict to remove the edict to destroy the Jews (What the king wrote (by the hands of Haram) cannot be reprieved else it would show the king making an error - and, a king (!!) cannot be seen to make errors!!!). Mordeciah might be in possession of the kings signet ring BUT Xerxes is still THE KING.

And you notice that the ‘power and authority’ invested in these persons, is HANDED BACK to him who gave it to him... in all cases.

2. Then again, if the common formula for the Trinity is true, can we contribute any one authority or principle or act to anyone God?

The trinity formula is convoluted and does not form a cohesive circle of truth. It is linear, meaning that what is says at the beginning need not (and does not) marry up with what comes later, and certainly not at the end.

A case in point:

• What is the purpose of Jesus acquiring the earthly throne of David if he is almighty God? Does not God already own BOTH Heaven and earth (creation)?

3. One God? Who was crucified on the cross?

Trinity claims Jesus is Almighty God yet TRIES TO CLAIM that Jesus didn’t die - Jesus who they say is ALMIGHTY GOD, even to the point of claiming Jesus raised himself up (whoa..) I thought they said Jesus didn’t die... and again, why do they then celebrate Easter? I’m continually being told by Trinitarians that ‘Only Jesus’ body died’... but that’s it’s the same for ALL MANKIND... Their poor attempt at deception fell flat on its face!!

4. One God? Who begot? Who was begotten?

The error is that first word, ‘One’... Almighty God DID NOT SAY that he was ‘ONE’ God... He said that the Israelites should believe he is to be their ‘ONLY’ God. You can see how ‘One’ and ‘Only’ can get confused but carry different meanings. Trinity is dead set in the WRONG MEANING... The Almighty God emphasised continually to his favoured nation that he was their only God and that he had created and maintains all things. His Holy Spirit (not dwelt on much in the Torah) was his creative force, it’s his power that is the tool of his actions. Anyone who is his Son, can make use of it. And ‘Sons is anyone, Human or Angel Spirit, who ‘Does the works of the Father’.
‘Begotten’:

• ‘This day I have become to you, a Father, and you have become to me, A Son’

There is the ‘Begotten’... just as Paul ‘begot’ Onesimus the slave ... because Onesimus did exactly what Paul directed him to do: a perfect ‘Son’ (Philemon 1)

5. One God? Was Christ the Son of God before creation?

Jesus Christ was born as the second or Last ‘Adam’. That is, a human Being born completely sinless and Holy by the power of God (The Holy Spirit). Adam, his body was made first but was UNENLIVENED. Gods power blew the breath of life into the prone body - ‘and the man became a living soul’.
Jesus Christ, Mary was ‘overshadowed’ by the power of God and thus the egg in Mary was ENLIVENED to produce a child who, like Adam, was sinless and holy - ‘Son of God’ (Luke 3:38)... ‘therefore the child to be born is holy and SHALL BE CALLED the Son of the most high (GOD)’.

I think you can see your answer: ‘No, Jesus did not exist before creation’. So now you look at the verse in Corinthians that claims that Jesus created all things, and, if you didn’t see it before, you can now see the awful mess that it is, claiming that Jesus created everything... leaving the Father and their Holy Spirit Person doing nothing - despite the fact that ‘Father’ means, ‘He that brings into being... he that creates’.. yet saying that Jesus is God ... oh, such a horrible mess.

6. If so, should God the Father say Son of Myself? My only begotten self? I begot myself?[/QOUTE]No. The Father is the Father, He is ALMIGHTY GOD. His Son is anyone who does his works, whether Holy spirit Angels or Human Beings. Jesus Christ is the ONLY human who is and has been fully doing all the works the Father assigned him and thus is the ONLY SON (in humanity) of God.

7. One God? Who was Christ talking to, when He was in the garden? Himself? Not my will be done, but your will. What does that mean?

Jesus has his own Will. Hence he COULD SIN but resisted doing so. It would be no temptation if he were God because God cannot be tempted. In this verse, Jesus is sweating blood at the prospect that his Father and God might not be able to resurrect him. Jesus is willing to die as the sacrificial lamb but just for a moment he doubted - then recovered to give up his own Will in preference to the Will of the Father. If he were God then there could never have been a doubt as ‘God cannot die’ and the whole ‘Dying for humanity’ would be a complete fake-out!!

8. Christ said, "the Father is greater than I" Was He saying that He was greater than Himself? Or not as great as Himself?

Jesus quite rightly always puts his Father first. It’s a given: a child never says he is better than his Father (Hey, a true Father, not some hapless clodhopping excuse for a parent!) never mind greater. But the Father GIVES unto the Son so how on earth can the Son not be reliant on the Father.

 

[JustAskin]

I'm simply asking you not to post a shotgun response due to the fact it's a desperate attempt to try to give a fatal blow to your "opponent" and because most won't read a long post. Shotgun responses are by nature weak.



I'll get to refuting you once you present me with one thing at a time, and I will show you. It is apparent you are merely cutting and pasting your responses from some file on your computer, correct?

As for your "then I might start taking you seriously" is a rather unChristian remark. Can you leave off with that? No need to go on a belittling objective. Keep in mind it is your error I will make my polemic against, not your person. You do the same. (Btw, many on here conflate the two and are incapable of realizing the difference.)



That would be due to the fact I haven't attempted to refute you yet. Right? Let's keep things honest here. Your perceived victory is quite premature, baseless and presumptuous.



I'm sorry my friend, but your errant takes aren't deep Scriptural understandings, they are the same superficial errors JW's and other Arian sects make, including Arius himself.

That said, and no offense, but it is apparent doing this will involve dealing with some inflated pride coming through your statements.

Spiritual pride is a good thing!
And No, everything I wrote is from my own mind. I’m writing on an iPhone and write what I have in mind... the Holy Spirit induced mind does not require ‘Cut and Paste’ posts.
I will copy and paste a verse if the exact wording is crucial... some persons are quite picky so in that case it’s warranted. I do put ‘paraphrase) if I’m quoting a saying in complete generality.

I take your point about writing too much.. the last over long post was in response to a DEMAND from another poster that I should answer them. What I wrote WAS NECESSARY for my point. It also showed that my belief is comprehensive and cohesive and hence I’m happy to have it critiqued. Objections typically do come in the manner you put it - criticise ME rather than what I’ve said, if not just plain and simply object with absolutely no credible reason.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Father NEVER loses anything... He is ALWAYS the owner. Think of a shepherd who is given a flock of sheep to look after. Even as the shepherd has charge of the sheep, the sheep STILL belong to the OWNER.
You should notice the words:

• ‘Everything is put under his feet ...except HIM who put everything under his feet’

You will see this illustrated in Pharoah giving Joseph charge over the famine in Egypt. Everything was left to Joseph to manage - excepting the throne of Pharoah... Pharoah is STILL Pharoah...

And Mordeciah in the Book of Esther. He was given full charge to write any edict he needed in order to save the Jews... everything except an edict to make himself king ... actually, an edict to remove the edict to destroy the Jews (What the king wrote (by the hands of Haram) cannot be reprieved else it would show the king making an error - and, a king (!!) cannot be seen to make errors!!!). Mordeciah might be in possession of the kings signet ring BUT Xerxes is still THE KING.

And you notice that the ‘power and authority’ invested in these persons, is HANDED BACK to him who gave it to him... in all cases.

The trinity formula is convoluted and does not form a cohesive circle of truth. It is linear, meaning that what is says at the beginning need not (and does not) marry up with what comes later, and certainly not at the end.

A case in point:

• What is the purpose of Jesus acquiring the earthly throne of David if he is almighty God? Does not God already own BOTH Heaven and earth (creation)?

Trinity claims Jesus is Almighty God yet TRIES TO CLAIM that Jesus didn’t die - Jesus who they say is ALMIGHTY GOD, even to the point of claiming Jesus raised himself up (whoa..) I thought they said Jesus didn’t die... and again, why do they then celebrate Easter? I’m continually being told by Trinitarians that ‘Only Jesus’ body died’... but that’s it’s the same for ALL MANKIND... Their poor attempt at deception fell flat on its face!!

The error is that first word, ‘One’... Almighty God DID NOT SAY that he was ‘ONE’ God... He said that the Israelites should believe he is to be their ‘ONLY’ God. You can see how ‘One’ and ‘Only’ can get confused but carry different meanings. Trinity is dead set in the WRONG MEANING... The Almighty God emphasised continually to his favoured nation that he was their only God and that he had created and maintains all things. His Holy Spirit (not dwelt on much in the Torah) was his creative force, it’s his power that is the tool of his actions. Anyone who is his Son, can make use of it. And ‘Sons is anyone, Human or Angel Spirit, who ‘Does the works of the Father’.
‘Begotten’:

• ‘This day I have become to you, a Father, and you have become to me, A Son’

There is the ‘Begotten’... just as Paul ‘begot’ Onesimus the slave ... because Onesimus did exactly what Paul directed him to do: a perfect ‘Son’ (Philemon 1)

Jesus Christ was born as the second or Last ‘Adam’. That is, a human Being born completely sinless and Holy by the power of God (The Holy Spirit). Adam, his body was made first but was UNENLIVENED. Gods power blew the breath of life into the prone body - ‘and the man became a living soul’.
Jesus Christ, Mary was ‘overshadowed’ by the power of God and thus the egg in Mary was ENLIVENED to produce a child who, like Adam, was sinless and holy - ‘Son of God’ (Luke 3:38)... ‘therefore the child to be born is holy and SHALL BE CALLED the Son of the most high (GOD)’.

I think you can see your answer: ‘No, Jesus did not exist before creation’. So now you look at the verse in Corinthians that claims that Jesus created all things, and, if you didn’t see it before, you can now see the awful mess that it is, claiming that Jesus created everything... leaving the Father and their Holy Spirit Person doing nothing - despite the fact that ‘Father’ means, ‘He that brings into being... he that creates’.. yet saying that Jesus is God ... oh, such a horrible mess.

There is no free lunch.....sum up your wisdom. God is more than one person? Yes or no.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Spiritual pride is a good thing!
And No, everything I wrote is from my own mind. I’m writing on an iPhone and write what I have in mind... the Holy Spirit induced mind does not require ‘Cut and Paste’ posts.
I will copy and paste a verse if the exact wording is crucial... some persons are quite picky so in that case it’s warranted. I do put ‘paraphrase) if I’m quoting a saying in complete generality.

I take your point about writing too much.. the last over long post was in response to a DEMAND from another poster that I should answer them. What I wrote WAS NECESSARY for my point. It also showed that my belief is comprehensive and cohesive and hence I’m happy to have it critiqued. Objections typically do come in the manner you put it - criticise ME rather than what I’ve said, if not just plain and simply object with absolutely no credible reason.

Fair enough. Now, short proof Christ, according to you, is not God, Deity &c.

Lastly, you've claimed your writings are inspired. They are not theopneustos. Saying this in order to see all I'm dealing with here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Fair enough. Now, short proof Christ, according to you, is not God, Deity &c.

Lastly, you've claimed your writings are inspired. They are not theopneustos. Saying this in order to see all I'm dealing with here.

These anti-Trinitarians on here are saying the Christ is not God. So, if He is not God, then He is a created being, as only God is without beginning or ending. That puts Him on par with the very angels He created. They, too, could have done the job He did(becoming a man), seeing He, in their view, is a created being.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Fair enough. Now, short proof Christ, according to you, is not God, Deity &c.

Lastly, you've claimed your writings are inspired. They are not theopneustos. Saying this in order to see all I'm dealing with here.

Oh my! Whatever he's taking, I want nothing of it. He's off his rocker to make such a claim.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

These anti-Trinitarians on here are saying the Christ is not God. So, if He is not God, then He is a created being, as only God is without beginning or ending. That puts Him on par with the very angels He created. They, too, could have done the job He did(becoming a man), seeing He, in their view, is a created being.

To the Mormon cult it's not that big of a deal. We can become just like God and make ourselves into God. No biggie. If he can do it, so can they. Imagine believing that. Imagine others on here assuring them they're Christians. Their gospel isn't the Gospel, as by their own wording it is "another testament of Jesus Christ." People need to let that sink in.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Oh my! Whatever he's taking, I want nothing of it. He's off his rocker to make such a claim.

Goes with the territory I suppose. When Christ is brought down a few notches, mans foolish pride is exalted. He's already admitted how proud he is of himself. It was so apparent I addressed it.

The problem of most false religions; JW's, Mormons, his Arianism is man is exalted because they've lowered God.

 

[JustAskin]

I notice that my detractors are simply flinging mud - not actually showing which part of what I’ve written is supposed to be false.

But, over the years, I’ve noticed also that this is exactly what Trinitarians do when they see the truth and cannot refute it... they run away flinging mud behind them to obfuscate their false ideology.

Pride! Righteous Truth is an honourable Pride!! I am GLAD to know that I am speaking the truth - is that a detrimental pride?

Someone said that I am bringing Jesus down (to earth as a human?). [removed] NO!!
I said that Jesus was the LAST ADAM... it says so right there in the scriptures...

Look up what ‘ADAM’ mean?

Why do Trinitarians not show what the purpose of Jesus is? Why was he a replacement for the first Adam?

I outlined the repeated scriptural theme of:

• The First (‘First Born’) Son sins and another is brought up to replace him - as most beloved of the Father (‘Firstborn’)

It’s easy to investigate and qualify this theme from the scriptures. Do you say I’m wrong on this?

I outlined that Adam was called:

• ‘Son of God’ in Luke 3:38

If you are going to say that Jesus being ALSO called ‘Son of God’ means Jesus IS GOD then you need ALSO say that Adam IS GOD. But of course you cannot do it because that would be nonsense... so your own case is broken by common sense and logic.

I said that Adam’s body was not hard to make (in relativity) by the Angels because it is not the body, the flesh (called ‘Dust’ (chemical elements)) that matters (yes, a pun!!) but rather, the SPIRIT in the body. Therefore we solve the not-too-hard problem of who ALMIGHTY GOD was speaking to concerning the words: ‘Let us make man in our image’.
Notice the ‘our’ and later, ‘we’, somewhere. Nowhere else is God ever spoken in PLURAL meaning ‘He’ and ‘some other(s)’. But since ALMIGHTY GOD is ONE PERSON it is a lopsided ideology to say that ALMIGHTY GOD was talking to HIMSELF (why?? The trinity Will is ONE WILL.., what agreement is thus required through discussion!?). The conclusion is that since there were no others around then it IS the angels who THE ONE (‘Only’) GOD was speaking to! It can hardly be imagined that the angels just ‘stood around’ doing nothing while God created... the angels are EXACTLY the INTELLIGENT LIVING TOOLS required... does mankind not use ‘ROBOTS’ in his monumental creations - and being made in the image of God - are we not ‘GODS in limited physical Beings’! Also, read the scriptures and you will see that the holy angels are HIGHLY INTELLIGENT beings, powerful forces, wise, and have allowances for personal will TOWARDS the execution of their task given to them by the almighty:

• LOT was ‘allowed’ to decide where he was to escape to, despite the initial directive from the Angel
• The prophet confronted by the Angel holding a flaming sword GAVE him a chance to change his mind or kill him
• The Father of John the Baptist, Zacharias, was given the chance to agree to call his son’s name, ‘John’. Z argued so much with the Angel that the Angel stopped up his mouth until he agreed.
• Notice that when Sarai laughed at the thought that Abraham was to make her pregnant, the Angel DID NOT punish her... she gave in to the angels message without further fuss.

Indeed, a Holy angel sent by God cannot return until and unless it’s task is fulfilled (otherwise they render God as indulging defiance!)

Im told I wrote too much... so I stop here.

anything anyone wants to know exactly... please ask... I will show you UNEQUIVOCAL evidence from Scriptures BACKED UP by EVERYTHING I’ve said before and will in the future. And it will be comprehensive, cohesive, and completely conducive throughout, different from trinity, which is a synergy of differing ideologies at different times of scriptural history and future.

I ask another question to finish this session:

• What is the purpose of Jesus Christ acquiring the throne of the human King, David... Jesus to rule over mankind when, by trinity, he is Almighty God who already is KING over a greater kingdom of Heaven?

Now, think of this: If Jesus is a perfect sinless and Holy human Being, doing the works of his Father (definition of ‘Sons) then is Jesus not ‘LIFTED UP’ ... ‘RAISED UP IN GLORY’ when he finishes the works given to him by his Father, and God... his due Reward is to acquire the greatest gift of all: the name that is above all names!

If Jesus is God then that certainly is BRINGING JESUS DOWN if his reward is to gain what he already owns - and indeed to become KING AND RULER over what is LESS than what he already is king over!

[removed] Jesus is God but is High Priest TO GOD? How does that work?
Jesus is God but is the MEDIATOR between GOD and Man?? How is that?
Jesus is God but his power and authority is GIVEN TO HIM by GOD... so what was he BEFORE God gave him (temporarily) that power and authority - and when Jesus HANDS BACK that power and authority TO GOD - what is he then - still GOD?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I notice that my detractors are simply flinging mud - not actually showing which part of what I’ve written is supposed to be false.

But, over the years, I’ve noticed also that this is exactly what Trinitarians do when they see the truth and cannot refute it... they run away flinging mud behind them to obfuscate their false ideology.

Pride! Righteous Truth is an honourable Pride!! I am GLAD to know that I am speaking the truth - is that a detrimental pride?

Someone said that I am bringing Jesus down (to earth as a human?). []removed NO!!
I said that Jesus was the LAST ADAM... it says so right there in the scriptures...

Look up what ‘ADAM’ mean?

Why do Trinitarians not show what the purpose of Jesus is? Why was he a replacement for the first Adam?

I outlined the repeated scriptural theme of:

• The First (‘First Born’) Son sins and another is brought up to replace him - as most beloved of the Father (‘Firstborn’)

It’s easy to investigate and qualify this theme from the scriptures. Do you say I’m wrong on this?

I outlined that Adam was called:

• ‘Son of God’ in Luke 3:38

If you are going to say that Jesus being ALSO called ‘Son of God’ means Jesus IS GOD then you need ALSO say that Adam IS GOD. But of course you cannot do it because that would be nonsense... so your own case is broken by common sense and logic.

I said that Adam’s body was not hard to make (in relativity) by the Angels because it is not the body, the flesh (called ‘Dust’ (chemical elements)) that matters (yes, a pun!!) but rather, the SPIRIT in the body. Therefore we solve the not-too-hard problem of who ALMIGHTY GOD was speaking to concerning the words: ‘Let us make man in our image’.
Notice the ‘our’ and later, ‘we’, somewhere. Nowhere else is God ever spoken in PLURAL meaning ‘He’ and ‘some other(s)’. But since ALMIGHTY GOD is ONE PERSON it is a lopsided ideology to say that ALMIGHTY GOD was talking to HIMSELF (why?? The trinity Will is ONE WILL.., what agreement is thus required through discussion!?). The conclusion is that since there were no others around then it IS the angels who THE ONE (‘Only’) GOD was speaking to! It can hardly be imagined that the angels just ‘stood around’ doing nothing while God created... the angels are EXACTLY the INTELLIGENT LIVING TOOLS required... does mankind not use ‘ROBOTS’ in his monumental creations - and being made in the image of God - are we not ‘GODS in limited physical Beings’! Also, read the scriptures and you will see that the holy angels are HIGHLY INTELLIGENT beings, powerful forces, wise, and have allowances for personal will TOWARDS the execution of their task given to them by the almighty:

• LOT was ‘allowed’ to decide where he was to escape to, despite the initial directive from the Angel
• The prophet confronted by the Angel holding a flaming sword GAVE him a chance to change his mind or kill him
• The Father of John the Baptist, Zacharias, was given the chance to agree to call his son’s name, ‘John’. Z argued so much with the Angel that the Angel stopped up his mouth until he agreed.
• Notice that when Sarai laughed at the thought that Abraham was to make her pregnant, the Angel DID NOT punish her... she gave in to the angels message without further fuss.

Indeed, a Holy angel sent by God cannot return until and unless it’s task is fulfilled (otherwise they render God as indulging defiance!)

Im told I wrote too much... so I stop here.

anything anyone wants to know exactly... please ask... I will show you UNEQUIVOCAL evidence from Scriptures BACKED UP by EVERYTHING I’ve said before and will in the future. And it will be comprehensive, cohesive, and completely conducive throughout, different from trinity, which is a synergy of differing ideologies at different times of scriptural history and future.

I ask another question to finish this session:

• What is the purpose of Jesus Christ acquiring the throne of the human King, David... Jesus to rule over mankind when, by trinity, he is Almighty God who already is KING over a greater kingdom of Heaven?

Now, think of this: If Jesus is a perfect sinless and Holy human Being, doing the works of his Father (definition of ‘Sons) then is Jesus not ‘LIFTED UP’ ... ‘RAISED UP IN GLORY’ when he finishes the works given to him by his Father, and God... his due Reward is to acquire the greatest gift of all: the name that is above all names!

If Jesus is God then that certainly is BRINGING JESUS DOWN if his reward is to gain what he already owns - and indeed to become KING AND RULER over what is LESS than what he already is king over!

[removed] Jesus is God but is High Priest TO GOD? How does that work?
Jesus is God but is the MEDIATOR between GOD and Man?? How is that?
Jesus is God but his power and authority is GIVEN TO HIM by GOD... so what was he BEFORE God gave him (temporarily) that power and authority - and when Jesus HANDS BACK that power and authority TO GOD - what is he then - still GOD?

You are in rank rebellion and are unable to come to the truth right now. I am praying the Father reveals Himself to you. Good bye!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I notice that my detractors are simply flinging mud - not actually showing which part of what I’ve written is supposed to be false.

But, over the years, I’ve noticed also that this is exactly what Trinitarians do when they see the truth and cannot refute it... they run away flinging mud behind them to obfuscate their false ideology.

Pride! Righteous Truth is an honourable Pride!! I am GLAD to know that I am speaking the truth - is that a detrimental pride?

Someone said that I am bringing Jesus down (to earth as a human?). [removed] NO!!
I said that Jesus was the LAST ADAM... it says so right there in the scriptures...

Look up what ‘ADAM’ mean?

Why do Trinitarians not show what the purpose of Jesus is? Why was he a replacement for the first Adam?

I outlined the repeated scriptural theme of:

• The First (‘First Born’) Son sins and another is brought up to replace him - as most beloved of the Father (‘Firstborn’)

It’s easy to investigate and qualify this theme from the scriptures. Do you say I’m wrong on this?

I outlined that Adam was called:

• ‘Son of God’ in Luke 3:38

If you are going to say that Jesus being ALSO called ‘Son of God’ means Jesus IS GOD then you need ALSO say that Adam IS GOD. But of course you cannot do it because that would be nonsense... so your own case is broken by common sense and logic.

I said that Adam’s body was not hard to make (in relativity) by the Angels because it is not the body, the flesh (called ‘Dust’ (chemical elements)) that matters (yes, a pun!!) but rather, the SPIRIT in the body. Therefore we solve the not-too-hard problem of who ALMIGHTY GOD was speaking to concerning the words: ‘Let us make man in our image’.
Notice the ‘our’ and later, ‘we’, somewhere. Nowhere else is God ever spoken in PLURAL meaning ‘He’ and ‘some other(s)’. But since ALMIGHTY GOD is ONE PERSON it is a lopsided ideology to say that ALMIGHTY GOD was talking to HIMSELF (why?? The trinity Will is ONE WILL.., what agreement is thus required through discussion!?). The conclusion is that since there were no others around then it IS the angels who THE ONE (‘Only’) GOD was speaking to! It can hardly be imagined that the angels just ‘stood around’ doing nothing while God created... the angels are EXACTLY the INTELLIGENT LIVING TOOLS required... does mankind not use ‘ROBOTS’ in his monumental creations - and being made in the image of God - are we not ‘GODS in limited physical Beings’! Also, read the scriptures and you will see that the holy angels are HIGHLY INTELLIGENT beings, powerful forces, wise, and have allowances for personal will TOWARDS the execution of their task given to them by the almighty:

• LOT was ‘allowed’ to decide where he was to escape to, despite the initial directive from the Angel
• The prophet confronted by the Angel holding a flaming sword GAVE him a chance to change his mind or kill him
• The Father of John the Baptist, Zacharias, was given the chance to agree to call his son’s name, ‘John’. Z argued so much with the Angel that the Angel stopped up his mouth until he agreed.
• Notice that when Sarai laughed at the thought that Abraham was to make her pregnant, the Angel DID NOT punish her... she gave in to the angels message without further fuss.

Indeed, a Holy angel sent by God cannot return until and unless it’s task is fulfilled (otherwise they render God as indulging defiance!)

Im told I wrote too much... so I stop here.

anything anyone wants to know exactly... please ask... I will show you UNEQUIVOCAL evidence from Scriptures BACKED UP by EVERYTHING I’ve said before and will in the future. And it will be comprehensive, cohesive, and completely conducive throughout, different from trinity, which is a synergy of differing ideologies at different times of scriptural history and future.

I ask another question to finish this session:

• What is the purpose of Jesus Christ acquiring the throne of the human King, David... Jesus to rule over mankind when, by trinity, he is Almighty God who already is KING over a greater kingdom of Heaven?

Now, think of this: If Jesus is a perfect sinless and Holy human Being, doing the works of his Father (definition of ‘Sons) then is Jesus not ‘LIFTED UP’ ... ‘RAISED UP IN GLORY’ when he finishes the works given to him by his Father, and God... his due Reward is to acquire the greatest gift of all: the name that is above all names!

If Jesus is God then that certainly is BRINGING JESUS DOWN if his reward is to gain what he already owns - and indeed to become KING AND RULER over what is LESS than what he already is king over!

[removed] Jesus is God but is High Priest TO GOD? How does that work?
Jesus is God but is the MEDIATOR between GOD and Man?? How is that?
Jesus is God but his power and authority is GIVEN TO HIM by GOD... so what was he BEFORE God gave him (temporarily) that power and authority - and when Jesus HANDS BACK that power and authority TO GOD - what is he then - still GOD?

Your diatribe and demotion of Christ while exalting YOU is rather sad and remarkable. You've attempted to dethrone Christ.

Yet he is still enthroned as YHWH. John shows clearly that the YHWH of Isaiah 6:1 is clearly God as per John 12:41 declares. Yes Christ is YHWH. Many could not see it as stated in said passage, nor can you.

 

[JustAskin]

You are in rank rebellion and are unable to come to the truth right now. I am praying the Father reveals Himself to you. Good bye!

The Father is revealed to us all through the inspirational words in the scriptures. This is the work of Jesus Christ: at least one task was to reveal the Father. If you do not yet know the Father then you render Jesus Christ as having FAILED in this part of his mission:

• ‘Father, I have given them the word you gave to me to give to them...’ (John 17:4)

God revealed his servant (Isaiah 42:1) and taught him what to say to HIS people.

His ‘Servant’, duly completed the assignment in full.

Hereafter, anyone claiming to not know the Father after reading the testimony of Jesus Christ, needs to seek further guidance from authorised sources.

Trinity is not a Holy Spirit-inspired authorised source.

A GOD is not sent:

• Jesus was sent
• The Holy Spirit was sent
• The Father was ....NOT SENT!

’No one has seen God at any time...’
Who was seen:

• Jesus was seen
• The Holy Spirit was viewed
• The Father was ...NEVER SEEN

Who is worshipped (Do not confuse Obeisance with Worship..! The Jews did not arrest those who showed obeisance to Jesus yet you know they sought every way to accuse him of blasphemy!!):

• Jesus is not WORSHIPPED
• The Holy Spirit is not WORSHIPPED
• The Father is ....WORSHIPPED

Scriptures states that only the ONE TRUE GOD (for Jews / christians ... man in general) should be worshipped. And Jesus says:

 

[JustAskin]

There is no free lunch.....sum up your wisdom. God is more than one person? Yes or no.

Is there a point to your mud?

What is ‘There is no free lunch’ supposed to mean? Where does ‘Free’ and ‘Lunch’ come into anything being discussed?

I understand that the pagan God of Trinity is three persons as one God... but the biblical scriptures incorporating the Torah and the New Testament books (canon) speaks about the ONLY TRUE GOD of:

• ‘Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’
• Jesus Christ
• The Disciples
• The Apostles
• Me
• All other true believers who accept the word of God through Jesus Christ:
  • ‘This means [eternal] life, that they believe in you, the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom you sent’

By the way, a trinitarian believer in this thread wrote that the words, ‘and in Jesus Christ’ should read, ‘Even Jesus Christ’, suggesting that Jesus was saying:

• ‘Father, ... This means life, that they should believe in me, the one true god, even Jesus Christ, whom I sent’

Folly is never far from trinitarian thought!