Thoughts about using a KJV update?

[Pearl]

Like I said, I really DO NOT CARE which Bible version you choose to use.

But I DO CARE about FALSE WORKINGS AGAINST GOD'S HOLY WRIT, such things as Wescott and Hort did against God's Holy Writ.

People like you STILL refuse to understand that the TWO GREEK manuscripts that Wescott and Hort used for their NEW Greek NT text are CORRUPT manuscripts, and NEVER PROVEN to be accurate, or even having an HISTORICAL BASIS.

The Vaticanus manuscript was FOUND in 1475 in the Vatican, and its ACTUAL DATE AND ORIGIN NEVER DETERMINED.

Likewise with the Alexandrinus manuscript, claimed to be of the 5th century, its historical ORIGIN has NEVER been proven either!

Yet Wescott and Hort FALSELY CLAIMED those manuscripts were the BEST and OLDEST of ALL existing Greek manuscripts of The Bible. They offered NO HISTORICAL PROOF. Most scholars on the committee of 1881 just accepted what they said without looking into it. But there were some on that committee, like Dean Burgon, who doubted them and was suspicious, and he had good reason.

Okay, so now I now a bit more about Messrs Westcott and Hort but honestly it doesn't interest me. And I'm not interested in those other manuscripts you mentioned. I just don't think it's something Christians should be arguing about. These arguments are something that is detrimental to the unity of the Spirit.

 

[Pearl]

Pearl, clearly Davy does care which Bible version you choose to use. If you read his post it's obvious.

Quite so!

 

[Jim B]

It's like saying, "I don't care which team you root for, but if you root against the Yankees you're an idiot!" (or Manchester United! LOL)

 

[Pearl]

It's like saying, "I don't care which team you root for, but if you root against the Yankees you're an idiot!"

Over here it would be football teams Manchester United and Liverpool - deadly rivals.

 

[Jim B]

Over here it would be football teams Manchester United and Liverpool - deadly rivals.

You and I were writing simultaneously!!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Pharisees were legalists who insisted that their knowledge of Torah and the other writings were the only valid interpretations were wrong.

So you would be bold and proud enough to ignore Jesus’ description of what a Pharisee is and follow what men say about them??

Boy, your bold. What doctrine emboldens you this way? Is it Once Saved Always Saved?

This is the characteristic of a Pharisee (hear ye what the Lord saith!!):

“All therefore whatsoever [the scribes and Pharisees] bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” (Matthew 23:3)

verse from Matthew, spoken to the Jews

So it’s OSAS and Dispensational Truth that emboldens you!

The Bible speaks to EVERYONE with ears to hear!

 

[Pearl]

The Bible speaks to EVERYONE with ears to hear!

From which ever version you choose to read. But there are those who can read with their eyes but not hear with their spiritual ears.

 

[Davy]

So?

What you said about not being able to "appreciate" or "understand" the KJV simply is not true, because the ALREADY UPDATED KJV (like I showed in my post 109), already uses modern English instead of the Old English, and I gave a comparison in that post.

My point? When you read your NIV, or the NLT, you are reading the SAME MODERN ENGLISH that the updated KJV English has. BUT there's still a difference, because DIFFERENT GREEK MANUSCRIPTS were used.

That is why below MANY modern NT translations are MISSING verses that are written in earlier Textus Receptus translations...

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Douay-Rheims

Matt 18:11
11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
YLT

NIV
MISSING

ESV
MISSING

LEXHAM ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NLT
MISSING

THE MESSAGE: THE BIBLE IN CONTEMPORARY LANGUAGE
MISSING

BIBLE IN BASIC ENGLISH
MISSING

GOD'S WORD TRANSLATION
MISSING

GOODSPEED AN AMERICAN TRANSLATION
MISSING

NEW HEART ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NEW TESTAMENT IN MODERN SPEECH (WEYMOUTH)
MISSING

 

[Pearl]

What you said about not being able to "appreciate" or "understand" the KJV simply is not true, because the ALREADY UPDATED KJV (like I showed in my post 109), already uses modern English instead of the Old English, and I gave a comparison in that post.

My point? When you read your NIV, or the NLT, you are reading the SAME MODERN ENGLISH that the updated KJV English has. BUT there's still a difference, because DIFFERENT GREEK MANUSCRIPTS were used.

That is why below MANY modern NT translations are MISSING verses that are written in earlier Textus Receptus translations...

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Douay-Rheims

Matt 18:11
11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
YLT

NIV
MISSING

ESV
MISSING

LEXHAM ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NLT
MISSING

THE MESSAGE: THE BIBLE IN CONTEMPORARY LANGUAGE
MISSING

BIBLE IN BASIC ENGLISH
MISSING

GOD'S WORD TRANSLATION
MISSING

GOODSPEED AN AMERICAN TRANSLATION
MISSING

NEW HEART ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NEW TESTAMENT IN MODERN SPEECH (WEYMOUTH)
MISSING

You're like a dog with a bone. I didn't even read that. I have said I'm not interested but perhaps you can't understand simple English.

 

[Davy]

Pearl, clearly Davy does care which Bible version you choose to use. If you read his post it's obvious.

There goes yet ANOTHER who likes to bear false witness against the KJV Bible. Why should anyone listen to what you say, since you have already shown your support of charlatans like Wescott and Hort on this thread?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The 1611 King James Bible is still the BEST ENGLISH BIBLE TO DATE, hands down, because it is still the MOST ACCURATE English translation to date, even with the shortcomings it has which the KJV translators warned the reader about. Saying it is "outdated and used archaic language" is OPINION ONLY, and most often comes from the SIDE THAT WANTS TO REPLACE IT WITH Wescott and Hort's corrupt new Greek text translation.

Whatever.

It can’t be accurate if most people cant read it or understand it because it is in an outdated language.

 

[Davy]

You're like a dog with a bone. I didn't even read that. I have said I'm not interested but perhaps you can't understand simple English.

Yet I referred you to it since. And I understand English very well, thank you. I even understand a little bit of European Spanish, German, Thai, and just a little Vietnamese. So you shouldn't continue to make remarks about things you have no clue about.

 

[Jim B]

What you said about not being able to "appreciate" or "understand" the KJV simply is not true, because the ALREADY UPDATED KJV (like I showed in my post 109), already uses modern English instead of the Old English, and I gave a comparison in that post.

My point? When you read your NIV, or the NLT, you are reading the SAME MODERN ENGLISH that the updated KJV English has. BUT there's still a difference, because DIFFERENT GREEK MANUSCRIPTS were used.

That is why below MANY modern NT translations are MISSING verses that are written in earlier Textus Receptus translations...

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

Matt 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Douay-Rheims

Matt 18:11
11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
YLT

NIV
MISSING

ESV
MISSING

LEXHAM ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NLT
MISSING

THE MESSAGE: THE BIBLE IN CONTEMPORARY LANGUAGE
MISSING

BIBLE IN BASIC ENGLISH
MISSING

GOD'S WORD TRANSLATION
MISSING

GOODSPEED AN AMERICAN TRANSLATION
MISSING

NEW HEART ENGLISH BIBLE
MISSING

NEW TESTAMENT IN MODERN SPEECH (WEYMOUTH)
MISSING

NET translators' note... (with my emphases)

Matthew 18:11; The most significant mss, along with others (א B L* Θ* ƒ1, 13 33 892* e ff1 sys sa), do not include 18:11 “For the Son of Man came to save the lost.” The verse is included in D Lmg N W Γ Δ Θc 078vid 565 579 700 892c 1241 1424 M lat syc,p,h, but is almost certainly not original, being borrowed from the parallel in Luke 19:10. The present translation follows NA28 in omitting the verse number as well, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.

BTW, what do you think of Romans 8:1...

KJV: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

NET: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

NET translators' note... (with my emphases): The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in M.

 

[Davy]

Whatever.

It can’t be accurate if most people cant read it or understand it because it is in an outdated language.

The "outdated language" argument is BOGUS, as I showed in my post 109 here, comparing the updated KJV English version with the 1611 Old English 1st edition (but with modern characters).

Just about ALL Bible translations are using similar modern English like the updated KJV does.

I don't see the KJV English being any more difficult to understand than later versions...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
KJV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
ASV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray.
ESV

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus told them, "Don't let anyone mislead you,
New Living Translation

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
NKJV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus said to them in answer, Take care that you are not tricked.
BBE

Matt 24:4-5
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful not to let anyone deceive you.
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society.)

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered, “Take care that no one misleads you about this.
Goodspeed

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Watch out that no one deceives you!
(from The Lexham English Bible, Fourth Edition)

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray.
NHEB

Matt 24:4
4 "Take care that no one misleads you," answered Jesus;
Weymouth

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray.
WEB

 

[Davy]

NET translators' note... (with my emphases)

Matthew 18:11; The most significant mss, along with others (א B L* Θ* ƒ1, 13 33 892* e ff1 sys sa), do not include 18:11 “For the Son of Man came to save the lost.” The verse is included in D Lmg N W Γ Δ Θc 078vid 565 579 700 892c 1241 1424 M lat syc,p,h, but is almost certainly not original, being borrowed from the parallel in Luke 19:10. The present translation follows NA28 in omitting the verse number as well, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.

BTW, what do you think of Romans 8:1...

KJV: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

NET: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

NET translators' note... (with my emphases): The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in M.

Already rebutted that in a previous post.

 

[Davy]

Okay, so now I now a bit more about Messrs Westcott and Hort but honestly it doesn't interest me. And I'm not interested in those other manuscripts you mentioned. I just don't think it's something Christians should be arguing about. These arguments are something that is detrimental to the unity of the Spirit.

I get it. You're not familiar with the battle to defend God's Holy Writ that's been going on. Nor do you care. I understand you.

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

In case you can't understand the above KJV, here's the NLT...

Jude 3-4
3 Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God's marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
New Living Translation

 

[Michiah-Imla]

From which ever version you choose to read.

Sure.

First time readers will get some good out of whatever Bible they use.

But once one becomes more mature and hungry for total truth, it’s KJV time!

 

[BarneyFife]

If you agape those who only agape you….

Not quite sure of your point

I just mean that the various words for love in Scripture are to delineate fallen human behavior. For God, self-sacrificing, other-centered love is all there is. Can the unregenerate really agape one another? Agape is basically loving everyone—even our enemies. We all start out as enemies of God and we choose, at various points along the way, which nature we want to cultivate in life, in response to God's agape for us.

I heard a very interesting lecture the other day on pre-natal sanctification. It's a concept I really never considered before, but I couldn't say I have a good argument against it. It's pretty deep. It's related to the idea of John the Baptist and Christ being filled with the Holy Ghost in the womb.

 

[Davy]

Just in case some need reminding what this 'battle' is all about... I recommend going back on this thread and reading the evidences that @Bible Highlighter has put up showing how there is a concerted ATTACK against God's Holy Writ. What KIND of attack?

The proposed CHANGES Wescott and Hort's corrupt manuscripts present REMOVES many basic traditional Christian Doctrines written in the EARLIER Greek Majority Texts which the early Church fathers used and quoted from. In some modifications their new Greek text even DENIES THE DEITY OF CHRIST JESUS, and sometimes totally removes references to Jesus (because being based on a corrupt manuscript).

The reason for those 'changes' is because of their using the corrupt Codex Vaticanus, their main Greek manuscript only found in 1475 in the Vatican, and never historically proven to be any older than that, which Wescott and Hort's theory relies upon, and is used to create a SOCIAL CHRISTIANITY, instead of REVEALED CHRISTIANITY directly from God's Divine Writ.

The reviser's committee that used Wescott and Hort's new Greek text (based on Vaticanus and Alexandrinus) wanted an ecumenical Bible version that ALL DENOMINATIONS could agree on and use, which was a CATHOLIC STRATEGY against the PROTESTANT FAITH and the EVANGELICAL CHURCH.

 

[Jim B]

The "outdated language" argument is BOGUS, as I showed in my post 109 here, comparing the updated KJV English version with the 1611 Old English 1st edition (but with modern characters).

Just about ALL Bible translations are using similar modern English like the updated KJV does.

I don't see the KJV English being any more difficult to understand than later versions...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
KJV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
ASV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray.
ESV

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus told them, "Don't let anyone mislead you,
New Living Translation

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
NKJV

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus said to them in answer, Take care that you are not tricked.
BBE

Matt 24:4-5
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful not to let anyone deceive you.
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society.)

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered, “Take care that no one misleads you about this.
Goodspeed

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Watch out that no one deceives you!
(from The Lexham English Bible, Fourth Edition)

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray.
NHEB

Matt 24:4
4 "Take care that no one misleads you," answered Jesus;
Weymouth

Matt 24:4
4 Jesus answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray.
WEB

Why was it necessary to update the language of the 1611 KJV?