Those who deny Eternal Security

[ChristisGod]

I didn't see any forums, just articles.

CARM Forums

 

[ChristisGod]

He also refuses all the testimony on Michael archangel.

as he should lol.

 

[CharismaticLady]

CARM Forums

Is it free, or monthly charge?

 

[ReChoired]

as he should lol.

That's not what the Calvinist Jean Calvin, or John Gill (Calvinist), and others (Calvinist) taught.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That is true about the Jews, but the content is actually FRUIT and can apply to us.

"By their fruit you will know them" certainly applies to all believers and non-believers. But then the scripture identifies who is saying Lord Lord by their claims of prophesying, casting out demons and doing wonders in His name.

How can one be truly born again and NOT love one another?

That is Jesus one commandment to us --- that we practice and fail at times. We grow in His love, try to be obedient, but we all still fail. But it is not something that will cause us to lose our salvation. We would all lose it, if we had to keep this LAW perfectly. That's the whole point - Jesus saves, we don't save ourselves.
Honestly, I fail with loving my neighbor as myself. I fail at loving my enemies - definitely. I don't know who complies with that one all the time. It does work though. I was in a car accident that I thought was the other guys fault. He was pissed and cussing in my face. And I remained calm. It was the Holy Spirit giving me that calm. Once I examined what happened, that the lane I was in shifted to the right at the intersection but I kept going straight into his lane, cutting him off and hitting his bumper. I thought he was in a turn lane. I was wrong and admitted it and then he completely changed his attitude. It went from livid, to butter and he apologized for his behavior. Gentleness, kindness, and love works in the most stressful situations with people who may be quite dangerous if you had responded differently. It was an old car, a bad neighborhood and he looked like someone that could have harmed me. Btw, I was driving a shuttle bus and transporting a family to the airport. They witnessed the whole thing and later commented on it: "I can't believe how you handled that!" I took no credit for that, it was the Holy Spirit, Who gave me calm. Imagine a person yelling in your face with every other word used was fowl language and you just talking back to him as if you were greeting Aunt Jenny, Good Morning. And then there are times I just want to punch someone - but I never do. We think evil thoughts. That brings to mind the scripture that says don't let anger give the Devil a foothold.

 

[ChristisGod]

Is it free, or monthly charge?

yes and 88 forums in total. there are several posters here on that forum as well.

 

[CharismaticLady]

yes and 88 forums in total.

I see that is where you got some of your terms I had never heard of before. I can also see from what they called "heresies" they wouldn't accept scriptures I stand on.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But then the scripture identifies who is saying Lord Lord by their claims of prophesying, casting out demons and doing wonders in His name.

I'm not sure why you think that is just Pharisees seeing as the apostles were too. That would apply to Pentecostals today too. Do you believe the apostles or Pentecostals are wicked?

 

[ReChoired]

as he should lol.

When will you learn...

Michael (archangel) - Wikipedia

Jean Calvin:

"... Michael ... I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ ..." (I have many more such things from Calvin, and the direct references).​

John Gill:

"... [Volume II. Book IV. Of the Second Coming of Christ; Page 395] 2. Another prophecy in Dan. XII. 1-3. respects the sound and personal coming of Christ; for his is meant by Michael, who is as God, as his name signifies, equal to him; the great prince, the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers ..." [Volume II. Book IV. Of the Second Coming of Christ; Page 395] - A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity​

"[Web Page 6] "Let no man beguile you of your reward in…worshipping of angels!" (Colossians 2:14). As Rev. Professor John Calvin rightly remarked (Institutes of the Christian Religion I:XIV:5-10): "I am…inclined…to agree with ancient writers that in those passages wherein it is stated that ‘the Angel of the Lord’ appeared to Abraham…and Moses, Christ was that Angel…. Michael is

-7-

described by Daniel as…‘mighty Prince’ and by Jude as…‘Archangel’" (Daniel 7:10 & 10:13,21 & 12:1 and First Thessalonians 4:16 and Jude 9)…. Christ too, in consequences of the supremacy which He obtains as Mediator, is called ‘the Angel’ (Malachi 3:1)…. Christ is not only superior to all angels (Colossians 1:16-20); but…all the endowments which they possess are derived from Him!"

Again, in his True Method of Giving Peace and of Reforming the Church (in his Tracts and Treatises, Eerdmans, 1958, III:318), Calvin remarks: "The servant of Elisha (Second Kings 6:17) sees an immense host of angels armed to give assistance to himself…. Yet, invoking God, he leans not on their support…. Those wander beyond the Word of God who call upon other intercessors in heaven besides Christ…. I say that they overleap the proper bounds of prayer!"

So too the 1637 Calvinistic Dordt Dutch Bible. At Daniel 10:13 it comments: "Understand by ‘Michael’ Christ Himself, Who stands by His servants and gives them power and strength." At Jude 9’s word ‘Michael,’ it comments: "This is the Archangel’s own name, which is also found at Daniel 10:13 & 12:1 and Revelation 12:7…. It says as much as ‘Who is like God?’ This name can also be ascribed to the Lord Jesus Christ." And at Revelation 12:5-7 it comments: "Because many things are here said of the male Child and after this about Michael…, it is appropriate that it indeed be taken here of Christ…. By this ‘Michael’…, Christ Himself is understood by most of the commentators."

Calvin’s and Calvinism’s, I maintain, is the correct view of angels. It was followed also by many others – notably by the Calvinist Matthew Henry in his Commentary on the Holy Bible.

At Daniel 10:21, Henry comments: "Here is Michael our Prince, the great Protector of the Church…. Michael the ‘Archangel’ is no other than Christ Himself, the ‘Angel of the covenant’ and the Lord of the angels…Whom Daniel (10:5) saw in a vision…. Christ is the ‘Church’s Prince’; angels are not, Hebrews 2:5f."

At Daniel 12:1, Henry adds: "Christ is ‘that great Prince’…. If He ‘stand up’ for His Church – who can be against it?… Michael shall stand up for the working out of our eternal salvation. The Son of God shall be incarnate, shall be ‘manifested to destroy the works of the devil’…. Christ shall ‘stand at the latter day upon the earth’ – shall appear for the complete redemption of all His…. That will be such a ‘day of trouble’ as never was, to all those whom Michael our Prince ‘stands against’…. When, upon the appearing of Michael our Prince, His Gospel is preached – many of them who ‘sleep in the dust’…shall be awakened."

At Jude 9, Henry comments: "The Apostle brings in Michael the Archangel…. Though this contest was mighty eager and earnest, and Michael was victorious in the issue, yet He would not bring a railing accusation against the devil. He knew a good cause needed no such weapons to be employed in its defence. It is said, ‘He durst not bring’…. Why ‘durst He not’?… He thought it below Him to engage in a trial of skill with the great enemy of God…. A ‘memorandum’…to all disputants never to ‘bring railing accusations’ into their disputes!…" [Web Page 6] - Dr F N Lee - Sermon Who is “The (Arch)angel of the Lord”? Page 6​

I have many, many more ...

 

[theefaith]

Not a matter of faith or sin but discipline

I believe eternal security once saved always saved

With the truth that it happens at death matt 24:13 and not while we’re still alive, then after being purified in purgatory we go to heaven and once saved always saved

 

[ChristisGod]

I see that is where you got some of your terms I had never heard of before. I can also see from what they called "heresies" they wouldn't accept scriptures I stand on.

Not true there are many charasmatic's from many different backgrounds there such as catholic's, protestant's, pentecostals, etc...... And many reformed people there believe the gifts are still active. Matt believes the gifts are still active, I don't. I'm a cessationist he is a continuationist.

so you can't box people as He is a Calvinist with everything whereas I am with some things.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not true there are many charasmatic's from many different backgrounds there such as catholic's, protestant's, pentecostals, etc...... And many reformed people there believe the gifts are still active. Matt believes the gifts are still active, I don't. I'm a cessationist he is a continuationist.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. You see, I also debate with Charismatics and Pentecostals.

 

[ChristisGod]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. You see, I also debate with Charismatics and Pentecostals.

point being there are people from all walks of live, beliefs, etc............

 

[CharismaticLady]

point being there are people from all walks of live, beliefs, etc............

But whoever started this site already deemed what is heretical and whom.

 

[ChristisGod]

But whoever started this site already deemed what is heretical and whom.

not true and actually your beliefs line up with his better than they do with mine.

there is a statement of faith just like this site has one and guess what ? they are the same.

 

[mailmandan]

I had never heard of CARM so looked it up. What they say are "heresies" I take it this is a Calvinist organization?

From what I remember, Matt Slick, who was the president and founder of CARM may have been a Calvinist. I just remember getting into various discussions over various doctrines just like on any other Christian forum, but I have not participated on that site in quite a while.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course not but your post reflects that, it was your argument against OSAS. You chose the passage and now of course you back peddle.

No is is exactly what I said, you do not want to form a religion on single scriptures...but that does not mean that there is not a idea or concept within a scripture.

Of course not but your post reflects that, it was your argument against OSAS. You chose the passage and now of course you back peddle.


It is a function of Christ! He promised eternal life if we believe in Him, follow him. He didn't make those promises with strings attached: "If you believe in Me you will have eternal life ... well, maybe ... it depends ... if you do this or don't that ..."
Our salvation is secure or else it is not salvation at all and then it wouldn't be a promise and a gift either if there is a maybe attached to it.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."Eph. 2:8-9

This verse claims that salvation is all God's work - not our work. And that includes after we are saved. Faith itself is a gift. Some have weak faith and some great - He portions it out as He wills. We participate by responding, obeying and abiding. But even all our good works are planned and empowered by Him. The Holy Spirit works through us to do good deeds.


Matthew has a theme, it is a portrait of Christ, as the Messiah, the King of Kings, a descendant of David. It was written to the Jewish Christians and unbelieving Jews who had a conflict. Those unbelieving Jews, who practiced Law and the Prophets, who remain stubborn, will at their death meet their Messiah and they will get rejected.
The qualification of who this passage was written to lies not just that it is written to the Jews, but also in their response to the Lord: " Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?" Matthew 7:22
Those aren't gentile unbelievers. They never did those things nor claimed to do them, only the Jews did.

I have already explained this in post #234 and I have an article on sin in Grailhunter's Corner
I am trying to be patient. I am seeing two extremes on this thread. When you have worked yourself into a theological extreme it is a red flag...odd are you have come to the wrong conclusion.

Some of you are in the OSAS camp and why are you there?...Charles "Taze" Russell came up with a religion without hell because he was scared of it. People get concerned about their salvation...no pop up timer, no saved or faith meter...Are they saved, do they have enough faith. It is fear driven, and outside the bounds of common sense and biblical understanding. Christ and the Apostles were dealing with simple people, giving a simple message about salvation and morality. What gets lost is the biblical meaning of belief, is not just a single thought, you take it to heart and apply it. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven....Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?

The sinless camp and the OSAS camp can throw scriptures at each other until the cows come home. All it means is that neither side understands. Why does it not dawn on them that these scriptures come from the same Bible? Why not wonder why? It is the proverbial cannot see the forest for the trees. The theme of the NT is salvation and a concern regarding the affects of sin on Christians and the corresponding warnings of Hell. Lots and lots of scriptures about sin and warnings of hell. But you will never find a scripture that says, don't worry, do whatever you want, you can always get forgiveness. There are plenty of scriptures that list the sins that will prevent you from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. You have real forgiveness and there are real sins and morality is important.

OSAS is a absurd theological belief. Again I have explained this in post #234. With habitual sin repentance become of no affect and there by forgiveness becomes less of a possibility. And I am concerned that the OSAS doctrine would get two thumbs from Satan. "Ya, do whatever you want, don't worry about it! You can always get forgiveness. Still I am not saying that the OSAS camp are not saved or not going to heaven. They are just wrong about the process. But I warn about taking a lack a daisy attitude toward sin.

On the other side of the coin the belief in salvation through a sinless life is absurd. And anyone that says that they are sinless is not only lying to themselves but everyone else.

Being that I am multi-denominational and travel I run into these beliefs and some have a disclaimer that if a Christian lives a life of sin, that they were not saved to begin with...so I get to see people being baptized
more than once. Another absurd concept

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is it free, or monthly charge?

You really won’t like CARM. They’re extremely “my way or the highway”.

 

[CharismaticLady]

not true and actually your beliefs line up with his better than they do with mine.

there is a statement of faith just like this site has one and guess what ? they are the same.

I read his list of "heresies" and I flunked 2! And personally I don't know what other Charismatics believe on them, nor Pentecostals. I just know what I, personally, see in scripture.

 

[ChristisGod]

When will you learn...

Michael (archangel) - Wikipedia

Jean Calvin:

"... Michael ... I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ ..." (I have many more such things from Calvin, and the direct references).​

John Gill:

"... [Volume II. Book IV. Of the Second Coming of Christ; Page 395] 2. Another prophecy in Dan. XII. 1-3. respects the sound and personal coming of Christ; for his is meant by Michael, who is as God, as his name signifies, equal to him; the great prince, the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers ..." [Volume II. Book IV. Of the Second Coming of Christ; Page 395] - A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity​

"[Web Page 6] "Let no man beguile you of your reward in…worshipping of angels!" (Colossians 2:14). As Rev. Professor John Calvin rightly remarked (Institutes of the Christian Religion I:XIV:5-10): "I am…inclined…to agree with ancient writers that in those passages wherein it is stated that ‘the Angel of the Lord’ appeared to Abraham…and Moses, Christ was that Angel…. Michael is

-7-

described by Daniel as…‘mighty Prince’ and by Jude as…‘Archangel’" (Daniel 7:10 & 10:13,21 & 12:1 and First Thessalonians 4:16 and Jude 9)…. Christ too, in consequences of the supremacy which He obtains as Mediator, is called ‘the Angel’ (Malachi 3:1)…. Christ is not only superior to all angels (Colossians 1:16-20); but…all the endowments which they possess are derived from Him!"

Again, in his True Method of Giving Peace and of Reforming the Church (in his Tracts and Treatises, Eerdmans, 1958, III:318), Calvin remarks: "The servant of Elisha (Second Kings 6:17) sees an immense host of angels armed to give assistance to himself…. Yet, invoking God, he leans not on their support…. Those wander beyond the Word of God who call upon other intercessors in heaven besides Christ…. I say that they overleap the proper bounds of prayer!"

So too the 1637 Calvinistic Dordt Dutch Bible. At Daniel 10:13 it comments: "Understand by ‘Michael’ Christ Himself, Who stands by His servants and gives them power and strength." At Jude 9’s word ‘Michael,’ it comments: "This is the Archangel’s own name, which is also found at Daniel 10:13 & 12:1 and Revelation 12:7…. It says as much as ‘Who is like God?’ This name can also be ascribed to the Lord Jesus Christ." And at Revelation 12:5-7 it comments: "Because many things are here said of the male Child and after this about Michael…, it is appropriate that it indeed be taken here of Christ…. By this ‘Michael’…, Christ Himself is understood by most of the commentators."

Calvin’s and Calvinism’s, I maintain, is the correct view of angels. It was followed also by many others – notably by the Calvinist Matthew Henry in his Commentary on the Holy Bible.

At Daniel 10:21, Henry comments: "Here is Michael our Prince, the great Protector of the Church…. Michael the ‘Archangel’ is no other than Christ Himself, the ‘Angel of the covenant’ and the Lord of the angels…Whom Daniel (10:5) saw in a vision…. Christ is the ‘Church’s Prince’; angels are not, Hebrews 2:5f."

At Daniel 12:1, Henry adds: "Christ is ‘that great Prince’…. If He ‘stand up’ for His Church – who can be against it?… Michael shall stand up for the working out of our eternal salvation. The Son of God shall be incarnate, shall be ‘manifested to destroy the works of the devil’…. Christ shall ‘stand at the latter day upon the earth’ – shall appear for the complete redemption of all His…. That will be such a ‘day of trouble’ as never was, to all those whom Michael our Prince ‘stands against’…. When, upon the appearing of Michael our Prince, His Gospel is preached – many of them who ‘sleep in the dust’…shall be awakened."

At Jude 9, Henry comments: "The Apostle brings in Michael the Archangel…. Though this contest was mighty eager and earnest, and Michael was victorious in the issue, yet He would not bring a railing accusation against the devil. He knew a good cause needed no such weapons to be employed in its defence. It is said, ‘He durst not bring’…. Why ‘durst He not’?… He thought it below Him to engage in a trial of skill with the great enemy of God…. A ‘memorandum’…to all disputants never to ‘bring railing accusations’ into their disputes!…" [Web Page 6] - Dr F N Lee - Sermon Who is “The (Arch)angel of the Lord”? Page 6​

I have many, many more ...

HERESY Jesus is not an angel try reading Hebrews 1. Angels worship God not other angels. Angels worship Jesus in Revelation 4-5.

end of discussion.

Your fallacy is known as the appeal to authority.

Sola Scripture......................

next....................................