Those who deny Eternal Security

[WaterSong]

I cringe when I read someone speak of sisters and brothers in Christ as, OSAS'ers. As if we are a separate body and delusional as a group.

I also think topics of this nature, OSAS especially, can turn when we share our beliefs with the intention of trying to convince others their understanding of God's ways are wrong in comparison to our own. And in the course of that we consciously or subconsciously seek to lead people to agree with our view so as to change their own. I think this happens because if someone doesn't see things our way our sense of rightness with God comes into question within ourselves. Therefore, we argue in order to reassure ourselves we are not wrong because that then leads us to think we're not truly in Christ.
Just my two coppers on that.

I believe Jesus died to seal an eternal covenant with those in faithful allegiance to him. John 3:16 is a very powerful promise. Whosoever.
Everlasting life.
And that verse wherein Jesus promises those whom the father gives him shall never be taken from his hand. Never, in that promise from Christ means never ever. God's grace brings Jesus to us and we finding Jesus enter into that eternal covenant with the father who brought himself to this world to lead us to peace and eternal, not conditional, life.

I think of all those passages that speak of eternal security in Christ. All that we become as new creations when repenting and accepting Christ as our savior. If eternal security does not exist then what are we saved from or for?
God keeps his promises. He didn't have to show grace to this world. He didn't have to die on the cross to seal the new covenant with the world he did not come to judge but to redeem.

Psalm 18:30 "God's way is perfect. All the LORD's promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection."
John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

Deuteronomy 7:9 "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
This verse may lead some to say, yes, eternally secure as long as we keep God's commandments. Meaning to imply the converse. If we do not keep them then we are not secure.

However, I would contend we are indwelt by God's holy spirit as the redeemed reborn in Christ. And within us , as promised, are his commands written upon our heart that we are never far from them. And that holy spirit leads us unto righteousness. And God being God knows we are also human and will from time to time stumble.

This does not mean God evicts himself from within us. It means we are not alone in times such as those. And as such our helper will steer us aright because we are in him and he is within us.

God didn't die on the cross to seal an eternal covenant only to abandon us if we make a mistake. Or suffer so much we walk another path for a time thinking those footprints in the sand are proof God abandoned us and in return we think we are able to do the same in return.

Those footprints in the sand are deeper than usual because it is in those times even though we think we're walking this world our way, God is actually carrying us on the journey till we see that guidepost that reminds us, we are his. And shall be eternally.
And all things, even devastating things that make us question, are for our growth and for the glory of God. "Those who endure to the end", doesn't refer to working to earn salvation. Those passages tell us no matter what comes, we with God shall face it together and in the end find the glory that is our eternal rest as good and faithful servants. God is always faithful. Even if we may not be at times. No thing we can do surprises our omnipresent omniscient father.

And it is perfectly OK if someone doesn't agree with me. :)
God blesses.

 

[farouk]

John 3:16 is a very powerful promise. ...
I think of all those passages that speak of eternal security in Christ. All that we become as new creations when repenting and accepting Christ as our savior. If eternal security does not exist then what are we saved from or for?
God keeps his promises.

@WaterSong Indeed; it's a wondrous promise! :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yes, and the key word is believes, which means to obey, as the opposite is disobedient.

1 Peter 2:
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient...

The instruction is to obey the gospel of Christ, which is to believe that when Jesus shed His blood on the cross we can receive Christ and be born again of the Spirit of God. Disobedience involves adopting a personal performance based religion, instead of trusting fully in God's grace, and the righteousness of Christ that covers the sinfulness of our flesh. It is trying to make ourselves better in order to please and be acceptable to God, trying to justify ourselves according to the Law. Disobedience to the gospel involves running around trying to make oneself good and thinking that we can be more holy than others.

Disobedience is not failing to get the victory over our besetting sins as some observing will judge. We will always struggle with our shortcomings and failures, but in spite of these, God will always see us as totally righteous because the righteousness of Christ totally covers the sinfulness of our flesh. We can live and serve the Lord as if we have no sin, because that is the way God sees us. We can say that we have sin, in our flesh, and that satisfies the Scripture, "If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us". But when we look at ourselves from God's point of view, we can say quite truthfully, "They who are born of the Spirit of God cannot sin". If I tell God about this or that sin that I can't get the victory over, God will say to me, "What are you talking about? I can't see any sin!" I reply, "How come?" He will reply, "The righteousness of my Son Jesus gets in the way of my vision of you and I see only the purity of Jesus in your life."

So, sin is with us and will not go away until we rise to be with the Lord when He comes; but we can walk in the Spirit and serve the Lord with a clear conscience as if there is no sin in our lives. But this does not mean that we continue in the works of the flesh, because Paul says, "How can we continue in sin when we are dead to it?" "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me."

So there is a dichotomy in our spiritual lives. We are conscious of the sinfulness of our flesh and the temptations that come with it, and yet we are free from sin and its effect on our spiritual lives. We fight against sin, not to gain acceptance and righteousness that we already have in Christ, but because we belong to Christ and live in the Spirit and have the strong desire to walk in the Spirit and have nothing in our lives to hinder us. This is why in the book of Hebrews we have the instruction to lay aside every sin that besets and trips us up. Sin is a faith killer, because the devil comes along with his lies to make us feel condemned and dirty. But we have 1 John 1:9 to defeat the devil and his lies. When we fall off the wagon of holiness, just like falling off a horse, we get right up and back on the wagon or saddle and press on toward that prize which is waiting for us when Jesus comes again.

 

[WaterSong]

Yes, and the key word is believes, which means to obey, as the opposite is disobedient.

1 Peter 2:
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient...

The Living Stone and a Chosen People

1 Peter 2: 4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”8 and,“A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You assume this; no scripture says he planned this behavior.

The fact that the scripture says that Peter feared them of the circumcision shows that his action was not with intentions to deny the truth, but to protect himself from the Jews. Much like David, when he lied to Ahimelech the priest (1 Samuel 21:2); David is not condemned for this in scripture because of the situation he was in.

God knows the intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12) and understands the actions of men; we can only judge by the appearance of things which is condemned by the Lord (John 7:24).

I don't believe Peter sinned at all. He was eating with the Gentiles, then when the Jews came, he didn't want to offend them while they were still prejudice and lacking mature fruit. He met them where they were. And what's more, Paul would do the SAME THING, yet brags about how he chastised Peter to his face in front of everyone. So how can he judge Peter, especially since no where in the epistle was Peter given a chance to defend himself. Of the two of them, I would say Peter had the purer intentions of the heart, as you said.

1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The instruction is to obey the gospel of Christ, which is to believe that when Jesus shed His blood on the cross we can receive Christ and be born again of the Spirit of God. Disobedience involves adopting a personal performance based religion, instead of trusting fully in God's grace, and the righteousness of Christ that covers the sinfulness of our flesh. It is trying to make ourselves better in order to please and be acceptable to God, trying to justify ourselves according to the Law. Disobedience to the gospel involves running around trying to make oneself good and thinking that we can be more holy than others.

Disobedience is not failing to get the victory over our besetting sins as some observing will judge. We will always struggle with our shortcomings and failures, but in spite of these, God will always see us as totally righteous because the righteousness of Christ totally covers the sinfulness of our flesh. We can live and serve the Lord as if we have no sin, because that is the way God sees us. We can say that we have sin, in our flesh, and that satisfies the Scripture, "If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us". But when we look at ourselves from God's point of view, we can say quite truthfully, "They who are born of the Spirit of God cannot sin". If I tell God about this or that sin that I can't get the victory over, God will say to me, "What are you talking about? I can't see any sin!" I reply, "How come?" He will reply, "The righteousness of my Son Jesus gets in the way of my vision of you and I see only the purity of Jesus in your life."

So, sin is with us and will not go away until we rise to be with the Lord when He comes; but we can walk in the Spirit and serve the Lord with a clear conscience as if there is no sin in our lives. But this does not mean that we continue in the works of the flesh, because Paul says, "How can we continue in sin when we are dead to it?" "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me."

So there is a dichotomy in our spiritual lives. We are conscious of the sinfulness of our flesh and the temptations that come with it, and yet we are free from sin and its effect on our spiritual lives. We fight against sin, not to gain acceptance and righteousness that we already have in Christ, but because we belong to Christ and live in the Spirit and have the strong desire to walk in the Spirit and have nothing in our lives to hinder us. This is why in the book of Hebrews we have the instruction to lay aside every sin that besets and trips us up. Sin is a faith killer, because the devil comes along with his lies to make us feel condemned and dirty. But we have 1 John 1:9 to defeat the devil and his lies. When we fall off the wagon of holiness, just like falling off a horse, we get right up and back on the wagon or saddle and press on toward that prize which is waiting for us when Jesus comes again.

What do you say to Matthew 7:21-23 who believe in Jesus and called Him Lord?

Obedience is a sign one has the fear of the Lord.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't believe Peter sinned at all. He was eating with the Gentiles, then when the Jews came, he didn't want to offend them while they were still prejudice and lacking mature fruit. He met them where they were. And what's more, Paul would do the SAME THING, yet brags about how he chastised Peter to his face in front of everyone. So how can he judge Peter, especially since no where in the epistle was Peter given a chance to defend himself. Of the two of them, I would say Peter had the purer intentions of the heart, as you said.

1 Corinthians 9:
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

I agree. Peter was on the journey toward full sanctification, and it showed that he was still on the way in his development. It shows that he, like all of us, is not perfect. Paul did right in correcting him, but he did it as a loving brother, not killing Peter with kindness. Proverbs says that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. Also, Paul pointed out Peter's fault in public for the good of the church as a whole, to show conclusively that there is neither Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, but that there is only one faith, one God and one baptism. We could learn a lot from that in our multi-denominational church culture. The beauty of it is that Peter took the correction in humility and grace.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I agree. Peter was on the journey toward full sanctification, and it showed that he was still on the way in his development. It shows that he, like all of us, is not perfect. Paul did right in correcting him, but he did it as a loving brother, not killing Peter with kindness. Proverbs says that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy. Also, Paul pointed out Peter's fault in public for the good of the church as a whole, to show conclusively that there is neither Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, but that there is only one faith, one God and one baptism. We could learn a lot from that in our multi-denominational church culture. The beauty of it is that Peter took the correction in humility and grace.

No, you do not agree. I'm saying the opposite. Peter was spending time with both the Jews and the Gentiles, taking in mind the Jews shortcomings, and not offending them. Romans 14 Paul would have done the same thing, yet has the audacity to chastise Peter for doing the same thing he would have done.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What do you say to Matthew 7:21-23 who believe in Jesus and called Him Lord?

Obedience is a sign one has the fear of the Lord.

Jesus was talking to unconverted Jewish Pharisees. We know that when Jesus comes again, every knee shall bow to the Lordship of Christ both converted and unconverted persons. You will notice in the response of the ones under judgment that they were attempting to justify themselves by their own activities as if they deserved acceptance through their prophecies, casting out of demons and great acts. They didn't know that none of these things would justify them before God. The ones who were justified were those who said, "I am just a poor sinner who believed your gospel and took you at your Word, that I am saved by your grace through faith and not of myself but it was your gift to me, and not because of any works I have done, and so I don't boast about what I have done for you, but glory in what you did on the cross for me."

 

[CharismaticLady]

Jesus was talking to unconverted Jewish Pharisees. We know that when Jesus comes again, every knee shall bow to the Lordship of Christ both converted and unconverted persons. You will notice in the response of the ones under judgment that they were attempting to justify themselves by their own activities as if they deserved acceptance through their prophecies, casting out of demons and great acts. They didn't know that none of these things would justify them before God. The ones who were justified were those who said, "I am just a poor sinner who believed your gospel and took you at your Word, that I am saved by your grace through faith and not of myself but it was your gift to me, and not because of any works I have done, and so I don't boast about what I have done for you, but glory in what you did on the cross for me."

The gifts of God are irrevocable. What they did was counted on having gifts as a sign they were in good standing, but 1 John 3:21-24 shows who really is in good standing. Those who keep the commandments of the New Covenant. It is they who really abide in Jesus, and He in them. Jesus KNOWS them.

 

[farouk]

The instruction is to obey the gospel of Christ, which is to believe that when Jesus shed His blood on the cross we can receive Christ and be born again of the Spirit of God. Disobedience involves adopting a personal performance based religion, instead of trusting fully in God's grace, and the righteousness of Christ that covers the sinfulness of our flesh. It is trying to make ourselves better in order to please and be acceptable to God, trying to justify ourselves according to the Law. Disobedience to the gospel involves running around trying to make oneself good and thinking that we can be more holy than others.

Disobedience is not failing to get the victory over our besetting sins as some observing will judge. We will always struggle with our shortcomings and failures, but in spite of these, God will always see us as totally righteous because the righteousness of Christ totally covers the sinfulness of our flesh. We can live and serve the Lord as if we have no sin, because that is the way God sees us. We can say that we have sin, in our flesh, and that satisfies the Scripture, "If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us". But when we look at ourselves from God's point of view, we can say quite truthfully, "They who are born of the Spirit of God cannot sin". If I tell God about this or that sin that I can't get the victory over, God will say to me, "What are you talking about? I can't see any sin!" I reply, "How come?" He will reply, "The righteousness of my Son Jesus gets in the way of my vision of you and I see only the purity of Jesus in your life."

So, sin is with us and will not go away until we rise to be with the Lord when He comes; but we can walk in the Spirit and serve the Lord with a clear conscience as if there is no sin in our lives. But this does not mean that we continue in the works of the flesh, because Paul says, "How can we continue in sin when we are dead to it?" "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me."

So there is a dichotomy in our spiritual lives. We are conscious of the sinfulness of our flesh and the temptations that come with it, and yet we are free from sin and its effect on our spiritual lives. We fight against sin, not to gain acceptance and righteousness that we already have in Christ, but because we belong to Christ and live in the Spirit and have the strong desire to walk in the Spirit and have nothing in our lives to hinder us. This is why in the book of Hebrews we have the instruction to lay aside every sin that besets and trips us up. Sin is a faith killer, because the devil comes along with his lies to make us feel condemned and dirty. But we have 1 John 1:9 to defeat the devil and his lies. When we fall off the wagon of holiness, just like falling off a horse, we get right up and back on the wagon or saddle and press on toward that prize which is waiting for us when Jesus comes again.

@Paul Christensen "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3.14)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good night all!

 

[Paul Christensen]

No, you do not agree. I'm saying the opposite. Peter was spending time with both the Jews and the Gentiles, taking in mind the Jews shortcomings, and not offending them. Romans 14 Paul would have done the same thing, yet has the audacity to chastise Peter for doing the same thing he would have done.

I don't see it that way. I don't see how Romans 14 can apply to Paul's correction of Peter. Peter freely ate with Gentiles when there were no Jews present, but when the contingent of Jews came from Jerusalem, Peter chose to eat with them turning his back on the Gentiles. This was because the Jews from Jerusalem would not eat with the Gentiles and Peter sided with them. Unless Paul made it an issue, the church would have continued to be divided between Jewish and Gentile believers.

Paul did not do the same. Yes, he did say that when he was with Jews he behaved like a Jew, and with Gentiles behaved like a Gentile in terms of his attitude to law and custom. But when Jewish and Gentile believers were together, he would have insisted they all eat together, because he saw that they were no longer Jew or Gentile but believers in Christ. But Peter still had the issue of seeing Jewish and Gentile believers as being separate, and Paul felt the need to correct him in front of the Jewish and Gentile believers, so that it made very clear to all where Paul stood concerning Jews and Gentiles. If Paul had not have done that, he might have given the impression that he was the same as Peter, and might have lost the confidence of the Gentiles to whom he was sent with the gospel by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The gifts of God are irrevocable. What they did was counted on having gifts as a sign they were in good standing, but 1 John 3:21-24 shows who really is in good standing. Those who keep the commandments of the New Covenant. It is they who really abide in Jesus, and He in them. Jesus KNOWS them.

When Jesus told these things to the Jewish Pharisees, the Christian church was not yet born, so the prophecies, casting out of demons, and great deeds were not view in the context of a Christian church that did not yet exist. So, it is safely assumed that the Jewish Pharisees and teachers did all these things. I don't think that we can directly apply the reference to Christian believers who work with the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit distributes them according to His will. Of course, Jesus talks about false apostles and miracle-workers who prophesy, cast out demons and do mighty works to deceive people away from the true gospel of Christ. We see this today where there are big-name men whom people "hero-worship" and acclaim them greater than Christ Himself.

I think we will get some surprises when it comes to the judgment, because some whom we thought were great in the church, might not be anywhere near, while those whom we never knew about might be viewed as the greater believers and servants in God's sight.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul judged him, confronted Peter and said he stood condemned for his hypocrisy. I'm sorry that you deny Scripture and the Truth in Galatians 2 which is inspired by God.

hope this helps !!!

Your translation is not inspired by God because it plainly contradicts the scriptural reality of John 5:24 (kjv...as well as in other versions).

I agree but some are saying Peter did not sin and are making excuses for his sin which Paul confronted saying he stood condemned for his hypocrisy in Galatians 2.

He did not stand condemned; he merely was to blame; otherwise John 5:24 (kjv) isn't true.

Eternal Security is only in Christ Jesus. The Ark. Leave the Ark, and one is lost.

If you have the fear of Him in you, you will never leave the ark.

Yep. Jesus won't cast out (forcefully thrown), but it doesn't say we cannot leave of our own accord through unbelief (Jesus let's us go because we choose to no longer walk with Him; 1 Cor. 7:15 applies), does it?

Read Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv). Your argument applies to those who don't have the fear of the LORD in them; but it is promised to those who do fear Him that they will never walk away. See also Psalms 19:9 (kjv).

We will always struggle with our shortcomings and failures,

Speak for yourself. I know that I do not have to sin as a sanctified and perfected believer (Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10).

Jesus was talking to unconverted Jewish Pharisees.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was talking to His core group of disciples who followed Him up the mountain (Matthew 5:1-2)

I don't see it that way. I don't see how Romans 14 can apply to Paul's correction of Peter. Peter freely ate with Gentiles when there were no Jews present, but when the contingent of Jews came from Jerusalem, Peter chose to eat with them turning his back on the Gentiles.

Peter was correct in that he was catering to the consciences of the Jewish believers who had come to the table (see Romans 14, Romans 15:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8); because to eat with the Gentiles meant eating unkosher foods and this would afflict the consciences of the Jewish believers present.

But when Jewish and Gentile believers were together, he would have insisted they all eat together, because he saw that they were no longer Jew or Gentile but believers in Christ.

He might have required that they eat kosher foods however; in order to accommodate the Jewish consciences of the Jewish believers at the table.

When Jesus told these things to the Jewish Pharisees,

Again, these words, in Matthew 7:21-23, were not spoken to Pharisees but to Jesus' core group of disciples.

 

[Enoch111]

Once Saved Always Saved says you can beat the menservants and maidens and be drunken and not be appointed a portion with the unbelievers.

That is TOTAL NONSENSE. See Titus 2:11-13.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is TOTAL NONSENSE. See Titus 2:11-13.

I think that you are confusing OSAS with POTS.

 

[BarneyFife]

I am fully aware that venturing into the topic of Eternal Security/OSAS often appears fruitless; but I engage this topic so that readers who necessarily won’t participate might be edified and perhaps some believers in Once Saved Always Saved might recover themselves (2 Timothy 2:26) out of that snare.

I've considered this as well, but I've come to believe that the matter is not a zero-sum equation, i.e., there are more than two polar-opposite positions in play.

And even if some have their minds made up in stubbornness:

Is resoluteness not an option? Cannot some people be conscientiously firm in their beliefs, even if they're wrong? What are we to do with people who are assumably born in the wrong country or under the wrong philosophy or culture? None of us have a perfect understanding of Soteriology. So if there are varying degrees of incorrect understanding, where is the line to be drawn? I suggest that we don't know. And that it depends largely upon the heart's intent. Not that all roads lead to Zion. Pluralism is a dreadful thing to me. I believe that if we are all tending toward Truth (as it is in Christ) we must, then, of necessity be coming closer together. But if I know I'm wrong about something(s), of how much value is it for me to suggest your level and manner of error?

 

[BarneyFife]

'But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him,
seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.'
(Hebrews 7:24-25)

I believe what is written above.

What meaneth this? How readest thou?

 

[ReChoired]

Do you realize how nonsensical this sounds?

Do you agree with this statement?

1Jn_5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.​

If so, I have a few questions. How does one get their name in the "book of life of the Lamb", for it is obvious some names are "not written" therein? Who then are those not found written in the Lamb's book of life, and how come they are not in it?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev_21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.​