The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Many sermons have been preached about the two trees, and there seem to be good analogies that can be made, however, Biblical teaching about these trees is little at best.

It is throughout scripture that men are in two classes spiritually.

The Spirit came up David apparently for the remainder of his life.

If it was so with one man then the idea that no-one was baptized and walked in the Spirit in OT times, cannot be correct.

1 Samuel 16:13 KJV
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

1 Samuel 10:6 KJV
And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

The Spirit came upon Saul, and Saul prophesied, but does that mean Saul was close to God?

There is obviously a difference between them. Are all men like asses because God used one?

Concerning the prophets being close to God, I'd like to think it was so, that they had a special and close relationship with God, but I see some troubling things in their writings,

Ezekiel 3:14 KJV
So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.

Ezekiel wasn't always happy about what was happening with him.

Jeremiah had this to say:

Jeremiah 20:10-18 KJV
10) For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.
11) But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.
12) But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.
13) Sing unto the LORD, praise ye the LORD: for he hath delivered the soul of the poor from the hand of evildoers.
14) Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.
15) Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.
16) And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
17) Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
18) Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

Essentially, that all these people are watching him, hoping to nail him. But the Lord protects him, and won't allow this to happen. So Jeremiah both praises God for being his protector, and curses the day he was born, because he'd rather have never been born!

No, being God's prophet wasn't just a bowl of peaches and cream!

Right, and we see that both Peter and Paul had a time when they were not Spirit led and made mistakes, one of which was quite fatal to his ordained ministry as an apostle (could not longer be sent). There are many instances when a person has been ES'ed but fell from that state, and hopefully restored, which Hebrews tells us is not easy.

There is a 'going in and out' of the temple before a man is established: Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out

Jesus announce the new covenant in His blood, shed on the cross.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

How would someone in Theosis be doctrinally wrong in their teaching?

Explained above. We are given a new heart at salvation, not a new mind. Our spiritual understanding is increased exponentially but we still have to learn many things in interpreting scripture but this time in the right way, incorporating the spiritual aspect.

aMuch love!

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks on the three options: scripture says throughout that man is saved or lost, a sinner or a saint. You are giving three options, the third being that he is saved yet sins.

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks
This site may be of some interest and help:

Enter His Rest

Few make it into God's rest, but you can be one of them. On this website, you find the Biblical help to enter God's rest, experience entire sanctification, and walk in freedom from the authority of sin

enterhisrest.net

I knew Tom before he died and had many long discussions with him. His theology is the western one and there were some areas we had disagreements, but in the main there is much that can be useful on his site.

 

[marks]

I kept the best till last.

No-one enters His rest or finds The Way (credit to @Episkopos)

Credit to episkopos?? The Bible calls this the Way.

unless they are pretty desperate because you are asked to make a huge sacrifice.
The first step is acknowledging that it is what you need - desperately need, and the second is to start listening to God carefully. He wants it more than you. That still small voice must be obeyed. Ones desire can be fired by reading testimonies of others.

And most of all prayer. I will post anything else I think of.

So then we wouldn't answer any differently. We need Him, we offer ourselves to Him, we receive Him, we listen to Him, we obey Him, we are encouraged by others. I'd add that we include the Bible in our daily life, meditating on what we read, prayerfully.

And we trust Him to make it all happen in our lives.

But it sounds like for you we need to have an extra strong feeling of neediness, that we have to downright desparate. Hm . . . if that's the criteria I've been there many times. And God has met me there, but this does not seem to me to be the recipe for walking in the Spirit.

A feeling of desparation to have more from God denies what He's given us, doesn't it?

I keep returning to those many passages that tell us we are already complete in Him, we already have His full commitment in our lives, and we are to trust that. How do we trust that if we don't believe it's true?

This notion that only the sinless are truly saved, I do not see that in the Bible. I'll be happy to look at any passage of Scripture with you, however, you did not use any in your answer above. I'm interested in which Scriptures you see portraying these things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks on the three options: scripture says throughout that man is saved or lost, a sinner or a saint. You are giving three options, the third being that he is saved yet sins.

Then none of us are saved. Or we are intermittently saved, and that salvation gained and lost. This is not Scriptural.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is throughout scripture that men are in two classes spiritually.

I think that is overly simplistic myself. Yes, in a sense, those who know God, and those who do not. If you believe people were regenerated before Christ died then you will come at this question very differently than I do. So we can say regenerate and unregenerate. But don't you add a third condition, someone who has been called but not reborn yet? Do you have 4 conditions of man?

Those who have not been illuminated.
Those who have been illuminated, but not purged.
Those who have been purged, but not in Theosis.
Those in Theosis.

It seems to me we can parse man's condition in various ways. In the OT we had those who were in covenant with God and those who were not. And of those in covenant with God, those who were disobedient and those who were not. And of those not in covenant with God, there were still some He accepted, like Noah, and Job, and whomever else.

If it was so with one man then the idea that no-one was baptized and walked in the Spirit in OT times, cannot be correct.

Having the Spirit come upon you and being baptized in the Spirit, I do not believe these are equivalent. Consider Sampson, how the Spirit came upon him at various times so that he could do amazing feats, but inbetween times he had much disobedience and foolishness. I can't think of any passages that say David was baptized in the Spirit, or that he walked in the Spirit. And even so, consider . . . even though the Spirit "came upon" David, and so far as I can tell remained his entire life, this includes when he slept with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah, doesn't it?

There is obviously a difference between them. Are all men like asses because God used one?

You said that the prophets would have been close to God, I'm pointing to examples where it doesn't seem to be so much the case. As I've said, I test everything against Scripture, which some fault me for, but to me is safe, in that all men's words are to be tested against God's words. Not just Saul, the prophets otherwise didn't even understand all that they were prophesying. They went in bitterness and shame (consider Isaiah walking naked through the land for so long) and deep depression.

Right, and we see that both Peter and Paul had a time when they were not Spirit led and made mistakes, one of which was quite fatal to his ordained ministry as an apostle (could not longer be sent). There are many instances when a person has been ES'ed but fell from that state, and hopefully restored, which Hebrews tells us is not easy.

Which could no longer be sent? I don't recall the passage, can you remind me?

In Hebrews, are you talking about:

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If so, this actually says not that it's difficult, but that it's actually impossible. So if this is referring to Theosis, you have only one chance, and after that you are disqualifed permanently. If that's what it's talking about. Personally I think that is out of context.

There is a 'going in and out' of the temple before a man is established: Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out

Again, could you point to the Scriptures on this? There is no "going in and going out" of Theosis if that's what Hebrews is referring to, so this doesn't make Scriptural sense either, as least to me. But if you can show the Scriptures on it that will help.

Much love!

Explained above. We are given a new heart at salvation, not a new mind. Our spiritual understanding is increased exponentially but we still have to learn many things in interpreting scripture but this time in the right way, incorporating the spiritual aspect.

And apparently not a new spirit either, is that right? What is this new heart? Do you mean that our interests/desires/inclinations are changed? What does that mean exactly to you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks
This site may be of some interest and help:

Enter His Rest

Few make it into God's rest, but you can be one of them. On this website, you find the Biblical help to enter God's rest, experience entire sanctification, and walk in freedom from the authority of sin

enterhisrest.net

I knew Tom before he died and had many long discussions with him. His theology is the western one and there were some areas we had disagreements, but in the main there is much that can be useful on his site.

Enter His Rest

enterhisrest.net

"Entire sanctification involves two items, viz: entire consecration, and entire purification. It is our duty to consecrate, and God's work to purify our hearts. God cannot consecrate for us; neither can we purify our hearts; but God will purify our hearts, if we consecrate our all for that purpose, and trust him to do the work."

However, see below:

Romans 15:16 KJV
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 5:26 KJV
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:2-3 KJV
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

James 4:8 KJV
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . he goes on the identify this consecration as an act we are to do, as we finally and fully submit everything to God without any reservation, as though we are able to know our own hearts to such a degree. The Bible teaches us otherwise. Regardless, Scripture teaches it is God who sanctifies us - makes us holy - both in our new creation, and in our lives.

More love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Credit to episkopos?? The Bible calls this the Way.

epi reminded me of it.

So then we wouldn't answer any differently. We need Him, we offer ourselves to Him, we receive Him, we listen to Him, we obey Him, we are encouraged by others. I'd add that we include the Bible in our daily life, meditating on what we read, prayerfully.

And we trust Him to make it all happen in our lives.

But it sounds like for you we need to have an extra strong feeling of neediness, that we have to downright desparate. Hm . . . if that's the criteria I've been there many times. And God has met me there, but this does not seem to me to be the recipe for walking in the Spirit.

A feeling of desparation to have more from God denies what He's given us, doesn't it?

I keep returning to those many passages that tell us we are already complete in Him, we already have His full commitment in our lives, and we are to trust that. How do we trust that if we don't believe it's true?

You have misunderstood my meaning of desperation. It is only those who hate even their unintentional sins as much as God does, who are delivered from them like St Paul. The rest just settle down into 'gradual sanctification'.

This notion that only the sinless are truly saved, I do not see that in the Bible. I'll be happy to look at any passage of Scripture with you, however, you did not use any in your answer above. I'm interested in which Scriptures you see portraying these things.

Much love!

The scriptures that I would quote are the ones that you would deny as being those who first come to Christ, but here are a few:

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb. 12:14

74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. Luke 1

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” – 1 John 1:9

“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Hepzibah]

I think that is overly simplistic myself. Yes, in a sense, those who know God, and those who do not. If you believe people were regenerated before Christ died then you will come at this question very differently than I do. So we can say regenerate and unregenerate. But don't you add a third condition, someone who has been called but not reborn yet? Do you have 4 conditions of man?

Those who have not been illuminated.
Those who have been illuminated, but not purged.
Those who have been purged, but not in Theosis.
Those in Theosis.

No I am not epi. There are various levels of being unsaved but they are all in that category.

Called? I am no Calvinist.

It seems to me we can parse man's condition in various ways. In the OT we had those who were in covenant with God and those who were not. And of those in covenant with God, those who were disobedient and those who were not. And of those not in covenant with God, there were still some He accepted, like Noah, and Job, and whomever else.

Having the Spirit come upon you and being baptized in the Spirit, I do not believe these are equivalent. Consider Sampson, how the Spirit came upon him at various times so that he could do amazing feats, but inbetween times he had much disobedience and foolishness. I can't think of any passages that say David was baptized in the Spirit, or that he walked in the Spirit. And even so, consider . . . even though the Spirit "came upon" David, and so far as I can tell remained his entire life, this includes when he slept with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah, doesn't it?

That was before David was confronted by Nathan

You said that the prophets would have been close to God, I'm pointing to examples where it doesn't seem to be so much the case. As I've said, I test everything against Scripture, which some fault me for, but to me is safe, in that all men's words are to be tested against God's words. Not just Saul, the prophets otherwise didn't even understand all that they were prophesying. They went in bitterness and shame (consider Isaiah walking naked through the land for so long) and deep depression.

Which could no longer be sent? I don't recall the passage, can you remind me?

Paul under house arrest?

In Hebrews, are you talking about:

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If so, this actually says not that it's difficult, but that it's actually impossible. So if this is referring to Theosis, you have only one chance, and after that you are disqualifed permanently. If that's what it's talking about. Personally I think that is out of context.

Impossible for man to restore such a man but not impossible for God. Peter was restored?

Again, could you point to the Scriptures on this? There is no "going in and going out" of Theosis if that's what Hebrews is referring to, so this doesn't make Scriptural sense either, as least to me. But if you can show the Scriptures on it that will help.

I have mentioned two examples in Peter and Paul.

Much love!

And apparently not a new spirit either, is that right? What is this new heart? Do you mean that our interests/desires/inclinations are changed? What does that mean exactly to you?

We receive the Holy Spirit and our spirits which were already awakened, are now separated from our souls: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

Yes I have experienced this and it is profound. Afterwards my mind was without any thought of sin and all passions (unholy wishes) were gone with only one desire left - to obey and worship God.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Enter His Rest

enterhisrest.net

"Entire sanctification involves two items, viz: entire consecration, and entire purification. It is our duty to consecrate, and God's work to purify our hearts. God cannot consecrate for us; neither can we purify our hearts; but God will purify our hearts, if we consecrate our all for that purpose, and trust him to do the work."

However, see below:

Romans 15:16 KJV
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 5:26 KJV
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:2-3 KJV
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

James 4:8 KJV
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . he goes on the identify this consecration as an act we are to do, as we finally and fully submit everything to God without any reservation, as though we are able to know our own hearts to such a degree. The Bible teaches us otherwise. Regardless, Scripture teaches it is God who sanctifies us - makes us holy - both in our new creation, and in our lives.

More love!

I have no wish to dispute what Tom Plumb said. I disagreed with him over various things.

However I agree about the consecration of our whole selves. We do not need to know our hearts - just submit ourselves to whatever will befall us thereafter, having come to the end of ourselves and our attempts of the Christian life. When we present ourselves on the 'altar' the fire of God comes down and consumes the sacrifice.

My ministry is only for those who are 'seeking'. For those who have given that up or near to it, then there is nothing I can help with.

The enter His rest site has old writings that are useful, especially for testimony at the time when the doctrine was 'almost there'. Nowadays there are none that hold to the early writings as far as I know, neither the discussion group which I have already tried..

 

[Lizbeth]

epi reminded me of it.


You have misunderstood my meaning of desperation. It is only those who hate even their unintentional sins as much as God does, who are delivered from them like St Paul. The rest just settle down into 'gradual sanctification'.


The scriptures that I would quote are the ones that you would deny as being those who first come to Christ, but here are a few:

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb. 12:14

74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. Luke 1

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” – 1 John 1:9

“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Amen, I don't disagree, as long as we don't lose sight of the fact that all who believe by faith have been made holy in the inner man and are therefore saved, as long as we remain in Christ and don't fall away. Even an infant one minute old is accepted and rejoiced in as a member of the family long before it has begun to grow and mature. But from what I can see it's now a matter of perfecting it. "Perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord." (And...."the fear of the Lord is to hate sin." hating even our inadvertent sins as you said as well as inner iniquity in general.) Bringing our "fruit to perfection"....which means through the spirit not through our own self-effort as such “but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” From what I can see perfect speaks to what is of the Spirit, spiritual.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The doctrine we have been looking at - entire sanctification, and whether it is possible for man to be without sin in this life, was taught in the early church and called Theosis or Deification, and has been found in the west during the revival years and especially during the time of the Wesley's. The early church said that it occurs in three stages, but in the west, two stages generally though sometimes three, but it is not worth getting into disputes about it until the whole concept of holiness is understood.

This however requires that a person is seeking to know the truth rather than just having idle curiosity, and is willing to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal that it is truth, directly. It cannot come through human reasoning which gets in the way. I am greatly encouraged to see on this forum, signs that He is at work and has been giving revelations, on this most unusual forum, where this subject can be discussed freely.

After many years of reading, I know that nearly all or all other forums will stop the discussion out right so thank you @Wynona for this opportunity.


"These are the states of beginners, the state of progress, and the state of the perfect.
the {removed] into the "purgative way", the "illuminative way", and the "unitive way".

These consolations are often withdrawn, and a state of desolation ensues, and then the passive purification of the senses begins.

So ultimately purification, illumination, deification—it’s not the pursuit of enlightenment; it’s the pursuit of love: the love of God. It is the pursuit of a spiritual marriage, loving and receiving love. It is the marriage-feast, love being the wine that’s set forth on God’s table. In the deified man, it’s the man who is bathed in the light of God’s love to the point that it radiates from him. St. Isaac of Syria says:

God’s love is by its nature warmth. When it lights on someone without any limit, it plunges his soul into ecstasy. That is why the heart of one who has felt it cannot bear to be deprived of it, but he gradually undergoes a strange alteration in proportion to the love that enters into him. These are the signs of that love: His face becomes inflamed with joy, and his body is filled with warmth. Fear and shame desert him as if he had gone outside of himself.


This is the description of the Paul who says, “I know a man who was caught up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know.” httphttps://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/orthodox_spirituality/our_fulfillment_in_christ

Deification in the Early Church

In the introduction to The Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers by J. B. Galloway(Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2014), we read: “If the teachings of the modern holiness movement are correct concerning the doctrine of holiness and the baptism with the Holy Ghost as an experience for the saints of God today, perfecting them in Christian love and freeing them form carnal sin, it seems that we should find some evidences of this faith and teachings in the period of the history of the Church where it was the closest to the days of Christ”

“The commentator Adam Clarke objected that the opinion that Paul was speaking of a regenerate person ‘has most pitifully and most shamefully lowered the Standard of Christianity, and even destroyed its influence and disgraced its character.’ A.H. Francke and J. Bengel (and, a little later, John Wesley, and, later still Moses Stuart) were among those who thought that Paul was describing a man who was under conviction of sin, but not yet regenerate. “ Rom 7:24 – Who is the ‘wretched man’? – Walking With Giants

In his celebrated book Holiness, Ryle writes: ‘I am quite satisfied that it does not describe the experience of an unconverted man, or of a young and unestablished Christian; but of an old experienced saint in close communion with God. None but such a man could say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. 7:22).’

The analysis of Christian development into these three ‘ways’ or phases derives from Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite, who ascribed a rhythm of purification, illumination, and union (or perfection) both to the hierarchies of angels and to the Church on earth. Medieval W. interpreters of Dionysius turned his scheme into an account of spiritual progress in terms of the three ways, beginning with the eradication of bad habits and the cultivation of the virtues, moving on to the illumination of the mind by meditation and contemplation, and culminating in unitive love. These three ways were adopted by later writers such as St John of the Cross and so became classic in systematic theories of Christian spirituality. purgative, illuminative, and unitive ways

St. Gregory Nazianzen, one of the great theologians of the fourth century, calls out to us over the centuries and exhorts us with the following. To quote St. Gregory: “Let us not remain what we are, but let us become what we once were.” And from St. Peter, the chief of the apostles, through the first-century voice of St. Ignatius of Antioch, from Irenaeus of the second century through the great Cappadocian Fathers of the fourth century, of the great Desert Fathers of the fifth century, Maximus the Confessor of the sixth century to John of Damascus and John of The Ladder in the ninth century, from Gregory Palamas in the 14th century to St. Silouan in the 20th century—the great Fathers of our Orthodox Church have echoed this exhortation of St. Gregory, reminding us and ever pointing us to the truth, that by God’s grace we can become much more than we are. [removed]

These so called "three ways or phases" are not found in the bible. They are nothing more than human imagination.

The sad reality for all of us elect Saints of God, is as Paul himself confirmed, "the good that he would do he does not but the evil that he wouldn't do, that he does"

Paul confirmed this sad reality after he was converted, it doesn't make any sense to suggest that Paul was taking about his life as Saul the murderer of Christians. Paul admitted that the law of sin was more powerful than his desire to obey the Lord, but thankfully he had nothing to worry about because Jesus already paid for all of the sins of the elect. Including our past, present and future sins, so we will never be judged for any sins at all.

The bible confirms that the Elect Saints of God will continue to sin everyday for the rest of our lives. And we will only attain sinless perfection in the life to come. So you should take more notice of what God said, rather than getting your theology from sinful man. God said "cursed is the man who trust in man", so that's a very sobering wake up call.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Christians follow men instead of God, I guess God lets them follow their heroes. It's a case of the blind following the blind and both fall into a pit.

 

[Hepzibah]

Amen, I don't disagree, as long as we don't lose sight of the fact that all who believe by faith have been made holy in the inner man and are therefore saved, as long as we remain in Christ and don't fall away.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:1-4

I don't read your interpretation here. How are we in newness of life if we continue to sin?

Even an infant one minute old is accepted and rejoiced in as a member of the family long before it has begun to grow and mature. But from what I can see it's now a matter of perfecting it. "Perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord." (And...."the fear of the Lord is to hate sin." hating even our inadvertent sins as you said as well as inner iniquity in general.) Bringing our "fruit to perfection"....which means through the spirit not through our own self-effort as such “but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” From what I can see perfect speaks to what is of the Spirit, spiritual.

Well actually what happens is that we love the Lord our God with the heart soul and mind, then a few weeks later we start to backslide. We are perfected through the Spirit not the spirit is my understanding. Flesh cannot serve God even well meaning flesh. None of mans efforts count.

 

[marks]

You have misunderstood my meaning of desperation. It is only those who hate even their unintentional sins as much as God does, who are delivered from them like St Paul. The rest just settle down into 'gradual sanctification'.

I don't think I've misunderstood. I don't see "sin" as a collection of behaviors and thoughts, individual acts. Sin, the works of the flesh, to me, this is living according to flesh. All that is not of faith is sin. I don't minimize any of this. It's not a matter of hating even the smallest mis-deed. Those are the symptoms, the reality goes far deeper then how we act, because of what we are dealing with, our flesh corruption.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What is it about our bodies that they are "vile"? And actually, the literal translation there is, Who shall change the body of our humiliation that it may be fashioned like His glorious body. Body of our humiliation? Personally it's not the weakness of my muscles, or my digestion, or whatever, that humiliates me, it's the pervasive sinfulness of the flesh, that's what I find to be what humiliates me.

I've found 2 sorts of Christian life. One is that we walk in the Spirit, and transcend all these things. What you call Theosis, what I call walking in the Spirit. The other being that we are living in the Spirit, but not walking in the Spirit, and in this state we will have mixed results, but in general, we will improve over time, as God is training us, and giving healing, and we improve over time. Of course, our progress will be linked to our own choices, for good or for ill.

In the one case, walking in the Spirit transcends, and in the other case, our character is being improved, so that we have a better foundation with which to resist evil and do good.

Something I think is a serious problem is in undermining what Walking in the Spirit really entails. I've learned, accept no substitutes. If I'm not in a transcendant state, I don't think I'm walking in the Spirit.

I think it's commonly thought that we can be walking in the Spirit even if we aren't feeling the love, or the peace, or that we give snide answers to others, or whatever it may be.

The scriptures that I would quote are the ones that you would deny as being those who first come to Christ, but here are a few:

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb. 12:14

This is the one of your list here that does make a statement to this point. "without holiness no one will see the Lord."

74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. Luke 1

Statement of intent, but not a soteriological statement.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” – 1 John 1:9

“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

This goes back to our views of "inner man" and "outer man".

Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is God in these passages speaking of holiness in the flesh? There is no reformation of the flesh in the same manner as our spirit. Our spirit is reborn holy and righteous, but the flesh remains "the body of our humiliation".

Paul understood that he had been delivered from "the body of his humilition", the corrupt flesh, "It is no longer I, but sin that lives in me". He understood that while his flesh was still subject to the corruptions of sin, he himself was no longer identified with his flesh, being a new creation in Christ. The flesh, the body, is still subject to the corruptions of sin, but his spirit is not, his spirit serves God, and the flesh has no power to prevent that. The flesh has no power to prevent being used as tools for righteousness.

Baptism into Christ, rebirth, gives us a new spirit not subject to the flesh, and it breaks the power of the flesh, so that we don't have to serve it any longer.

And we are promised that when we see Jesus we will be like Him. We are promised that when He comes back from heaven that He will transform the bodies of our humiliation to be like His glorious body. But He doesn't give any indication that He will transform our flesh before that.

Philippians 3:10-13 KJV
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Here, Paul wrote that he has not "already perfect".

Philippians 3:15-16 KJV
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16) Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Here, he speaks of himself as perfect.

In the first instance, in vs. 12, he was referring to being made conformable to Jesus' death, in the second instance, vs. 15, a more general sense among the believers.

He recognized a maturity from which he could tell others, "be followers of me", while likewise recognizing that he was not completely "made conformable unto His death", I think this is described in:

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Called? I am no Calvinist.

I say, "called" as that is Scriptural terminology, I don't intent to invoke any relation to Calvinism.

That was before David was confronted by Nathan

What is the significance of that? From the time David was anointed while still his father's sheep herder, and from that day forward, the Holy Spirit came upon David. A man whom the Holy Spirit was upon committed adultery and murder, not to mention all his wives, and whatever else.

Impossible for man to restore such a man but not impossible for God. Peter was restored?

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

What we think of as "Peter's restoration" at the end of John's Gospel, simply stated, cannot be from a falling away corresponding to this passage in Hebrews. "It is impossible" means exactly that, "no power to".

I have mentioned two examples in Peter and Paul.

What are the Scriptures that tell us this was what had happened?

Paul under house arrest?

OK, I see your thinking here.

For myself, I've thought that Paul wasn't supposed to go to Jerusalem at that time. Having gone there anyway, he was then arrested, jailed for two years, then sent to Rome. During that 2 years there was nothing recorded in the Bible of any fruitfulness to his ministry. But then on the ship sailing to Rome, he began to be fruitful again. Being arrested in Rome afforded him the opportunity to evangelize the Roman guard, even preaching to Caesar.

We receive the Holy Spirit and our spirits which were already awakened, are now separated from our souls: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12

An awakened spirit? Where is this in the Bible? We were dead, and in Christ we are made alive. 2 states, right? Dead, or Alive?

Yes I have experienced this and it is profound. Afterwards my mind was without any thought of sin and all passions (unholy wishes) were gone with only one desire left - to obey and worship God.

Ditto. But we interpret our experiences differently. For myself, as you must see by now, I insist on Scripture to teach these things.

I believe that God speaks to me in my mind, and I think I'm on a very solid foundation in this. Just the same, the mind can play tricks. Fortunately, I have a Book that covers all these things, so I can test what's in my head against something more objective.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The bible confirms that the Elect Saints of God will continue to sin everyday for the rest of our lives.

Where does it show that? To be clear, I don't believe we are qualified to know if we ourselves are truly without sin. Paul took that approach in 1 Corinthians 4, that while he wasn't aware of any sin, still, that wasn't for him to say, Jesus would judge rightly when He comes.

What is your understanding of these passages?

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are we able to do these things?

Much love!

 

[Christian Soldier]

Where does it show that? To be clear, I don't believe we are qualified to know if we ourselves are truly without sin. Paul took that approach in 1 Corinthians 4, that while he wasn't aware of any sin, still, that wasn't for him to say, Jesus would judge rightly when He comes.

What is your understanding of these passages?

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are we able to do these things?

Much love!

Job 15:16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

1 Kings 8:46 “If they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near,

1 John 1:8, 10
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Galatians 5:16-17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

There are many other verses which confirm that born again believers, continue to sin for the rest of our lives and we don't attain sinless perfection until we receive our glorified bodies in the life to come.

In 1 Cor 4, Paul seems to be saying that there are sins in his life which he is not even aware of, but God knows all about them. Paul said, our own judgement of ourselves or any human court is not the one that matters. It's Gods judgement of us that matters more than anyone else.

Those verses in the book of Galatians are exhortations, Paul is simply exhorting believers to make every effort to remain faithful to their profession of faith. He knows we can't continue walking without stumbling, while we are in this corrupt body of death.

Paul is really encouraging believers to war against against our sinful desires, until the end. We don't receive the final victory over sin in this life, we receive that in the life to come.

 

[Hepzibah]

I say, "called" as that is Scriptural terminology, I don't intent to invoke any relation to Calvinism.

You said 'But don't you add a third condition, someone who has been called but not reborn yet?' so I took it you meant predestination. I see now what you did mean.

What is the significance of that? From the time David was anointed while still his father's sheep herder, and from that day forward, the Holy Spirit came upon David. A man whom the Holy Spirit was upon committed adultery and murder, not to mention all his wives, and whatever else.

David was convicted of sin, then repented I assume. Having given this some thought, I wonder whether the ones who were not coming under the old covenant and the need for animal sacrifice, but believed in the new covenant of faith, yet still sinned, as those who had been Illumined by the truth. If so I expect God will be merciful towards them. I will give this more thought.

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

What we think of as "Peter's restoration" at the end of John's Gospel, simply stated, cannot be from a falling away corresponding to this passage in Hebrews. "It is impossible" means exactly that, "no power to".


What are the Scriptures that tell us this was what had happened?


OK, I see your thinking here.

For myself, I've thought that Paul wasn't supposed to go to Jerusalem at that time. Having gone there anyway, he was then arrested, jailed for two years, then sent to Rome. During that 2 years there was nothing recorded in the Bible of any fruitfulness to his ministry. But then on the ship sailing to Rome, he began to be fruitful again. Being arrested in Rome afforded him the opportunity to evangelize the Roman guard, even preaching to Caesar.

Yes but what had been lost during that time of unfruitfulness.

An awakened spirit? Where is this in the Bible? We were dead, and in Christ we are made alive. 2 states, right? Dead, or Alive?

Alive but still joined to the soul which needed to be separated.

Ditto. But we interpret our experiences differently. For myself, as you must see by now, I insist on Scripture to teach these things.

I do too but since being Illumined, I take the scripture as a whole and only what has been revealed to me as certainty. There are things that I am still learning about. At the back of my interpretation, is the understanding which has been given directly and I do look to others have been illumined and only accept anything that does not contradict scripture.

I believe that God speaks to me in my mind, and I think I'm on a very solid foundation in this. Just the same, the mind can play tricks. Fortunately, I have a Book that covers all these things, so I can test what's in my head against something more objective.

OK I thought like you once.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't think I've misunderstood. I don't see "sin" as a collection of behaviors and thoughts, individual acts. Sin, the works of the flesh, to me, this is living according to flesh. All that is not of faith is sin. I don't minimize any of this. It's not a matter of hating even the smallest mis-deed. Those are the symptoms, the reality goes far deeper then how we act, because of what we are dealing with, our flesh corruption.

Of course, but the question in such a state is 'how do I get out of the flesh?' which was Pauls'.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What is it about our bodies that they are "vile"? And actually, the literal translation there is, Who shall change the body of our humiliation that it may be fashioned like His glorious body. Body of our humiliation? Personally it's not the weakness of my muscles, or my digestion, or whatever, that humiliates me, it's the pervasive sinfulness of the flesh, that's what I find to be what humiliates me.

I've found 2 sorts of Christian life. One is that we walk in the Spirit, and transcend all these things. What you call Theosis, what I call walking in the Spirit. The other being that we are living in the Spirit, but not walking in the Spirit, and in this state we will have mixed results, but in general, we will improve over time, as God is training us, and giving healing, and we improve over time. Of course, our progress will be linked to our own choices, for good or for ill.

In the one case, walking in the Spirit transcends, and in the other case, our character is being improved, so that we have a better foundation with which to resist evil and do good.

Something I think is a serious problem is in undermining what Walking in the Spirit really entails. I've learned, accept no substitutes. If I'm not in a transcendant state, I don't think I'm walking in the Spirit.

Yes I like the phrase 'transcendant'. One one has been there, it is never forgotten and one never ceases to long for it again, out of love for God.

I think it's commonly thought that we can be walking in the Spirit even if we aren't feeling the love, or the peace, or that we give snide answers to others, or whatever it may be.

This is the one of your list here that does make a statement to this point. "without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Statement of intent, but not a soteriological statement.

This goes back to our views of "inner man" and "outer man".

Romans 7:24-25 KJV
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is God in these passages speaking of holiness in the flesh? There is no reformation of the flesh in the same manner as our spirit. Our spirit is reborn holy and righteous, but the flesh remains "the body of our humiliation".

Paul understood that he had been delivered from "the body of his humilition", the corrupt flesh, "It is no longer I, but sin that lives in me". He understood that while his flesh was still subject to the corruptions of sin, he himself was no longer identified with his flesh, being a new creation in Christ. The flesh, the body, is still subject to the corruptions of sin, but his spirit is not, his spirit serves God, and the flesh has no power to prevent that. The flesh has no power to prevent being used as tools for righteousness.

Baptism into Christ, rebirth, gives us a new spirit not subject to the flesh, and it breaks the power of the flesh, so that we don't have to serve it any longer.

And we are promised that when we see Jesus we will be like Him. We are promised that when He comes back from heaven that He will transform the bodies of our humiliation to be like His glorious body. But He doesn't give any indication that He will transform our flesh before that.

Philippians 3:10-13 KJV
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Here, Paul wrote that he has not "already perfect".

He is speaking of his martyrdom which was also known in the generation removed believers as perfection.

Philippians 3:15-16 KJV
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16) Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Here, he speaks of himself as perfect.

In the first instance, in vs. 12, he was referring to being made conformable to Jesus' death, in the second instance, vs. 15, a more general sense among the believers.

He recognized a maturity from which he could tell others, "be followers of me", while likewise recognizing that he was not completely "made conformable unto His death", I think this is described in:

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Much love!

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: (1 Thess 2:10)

Wow that was a big claim to make if he and the others were still not conformed don't you think?

 

[Lizbeth]

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:1-4

I don't read your interpretation here. How are we in newness of life if we continue to sin?


Well actually what happens is that we love the Lord our God with the heart soul and mind, then a few weeks later we start to backslide. We are perfected through the Spirit not the spirit is my understanding. Flesh cannot serve God even well meaning flesh. None of mans efforts count.

I'm having trouble processing these days, but it seems that you are missing the "yes but not necessarily yet" of the truth.. "All things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under His feet." And the last enemy to be defeated is death. I believe this has application on a personal level as well as in a future historical sense. I see salvation as being BOTH an initial event, as well as a journey/race that is not done until our time is up here. But the natural man can't perceive this...we need the mind of Christ for it. I wonder if spending a lot of time reading the early church fathers is making you too "logical" in how you are seeing some things....?