The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
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In fact this is not true, and must be a misunderstanding.
I interpret according to words and syntax, and then according to context in the clause, the context of the clause in the sentence, the sentence in the paragraph, and and so forth.
I don't use or hold to any such "systematic theology". I don't look at a passage and ask myself, what does that mean dispensationally.
Does this mean I am completely free of any cognitive bias? Is anyone? I don't know. But I've got a pretty open mind towards examining things. It's the way I was born.
That's why I'm the guy pointing to the verse in John, and saying it actaully does mean that Jesus have these men the authority that He Himself had to forgive men's sin on the earth. I suspect that others are interpretting it according to their own theology and not on the verse's own merits. "No, it can't mean men were able to forgive sin, only God can do that". So it can't mean what it says? So maybe in fact I'm the guy who isn't interpreting according to a system of theology.
Much love!
I'd want you to show me this in the Bible and it's not there.
It's the entire being of a man outside the Spirit. It's his physical being with the resultant psuche, and everyone's being has been corrupted by sin.
There is no passage of Scripture in the Bible that shows what I'm asking for, a context that shows "flesh" to refer to a "nature" that is not derived from the fleshy physical being we are.
Personally I think a more important turning point is when we can realize how our thinking has been affected so that we read a certain word in the Bible and think to ourselves something other than what it means.
We can all find commentators that agree with us. The Apostles, based on their writings, well, I'm in their court. Serious, it's not so important to me who says what when as it regards the Bible. Either what they say agrees or doesn't agree. And from what I've read, the early commentators didn't all say the same thing.
Yes, true, and just the same, the Holy Spirit was said to have come upon David. There was no regeneration before the cross. The prophets, long after David, foretold the new covenant, and a new heart, as yet to come.
This would be your characturization, but again, it's not accurate. Which ever labels you put on me, it's going to lead you away from the truth of me.
Do you believe you have to offer a lamb daily, and yearly, and whenever you sin? If not, then you also recognize different dispensations. And obviously that fact is not an overriding theology that everything you think will conform to. Neither is it for me.
No, we should not be arguing!! We should be sharing ourselves in love, hoping to give a gift. You've been doing great! There are only a handful of people on this forum I'm really interested in engaging, yourself, Johann, Lizbeth, not too many others!
Agree!! Me too!
On this "positional stuff", you know I don't hold to that, right? You may not consider my understanding much different, but I do. I believe we are recreated holy and righteous, all sins forgiven, otherwise we could have no part with God as far as intimate relationship, or rebirth. And that we are in process of relearning our lives.
As I understand those who think of "positional" effects of our salvation, this means that God considers us positionally holy, that is, we are accounted as being holy, though we are not, and accounted as being righteous, though we remain unrighteous.
I believe we are reborn a righteous and holy person, and we are learning how to live that out, as we still inhabit our "wrecked flesh".
Why would they disagree about other things, though? Am I remembering rightly that you said the teachers of the church were to be those in Theosis in order to insure the accuracy of their teaching?
That's the thing, though, I don't hold to any such system. I know those who do, I think most people I've had occasion to discuss Scripture at this kind of level will at some point come to the verse or verses where they end up saying, "Yes, it does say that, but what it really means is this." Like where Jesus said, as the Father sent, me, so I send you. Those whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and those whose sins you retain are retained. I'm the guy saying it means exactly what it says, no more, no less, but somehow, I'm the guy who is interpreting according to my 'system'.
So now I'm curious . . . are you also SPS?
Sensory processing sensitivity and somatosensory brain activation when feeling touch - Scientific Reports
Sensory processing sensitivity is described as a personality trait associated with a high sensitivity to environmental and social stimuli. It has been assumed that about 15–20% of the total population can be described as highly sensitive. The concept states that those individuals represent a...
www.nature.com
The Highly Sensitive Person
The Highly Sensitive Person: Books, Information, Self-tests, Events and Research
Much love!
@Hepzibah
I'd like to come back more squarely onto your topic, and ask this question.
You see where I am. You see where I want to be. Actually, this song I think really expresses the commonality between us,
All other things aside, Where do I go from here? If I require Theosis to be where I want to be, what am I to do?
Much love!
I'd like to come back more squarely onto your topic, and ask this question.
You see where I am. You see where I want to be. Actually, this song I think really expresses the commonality between us,
All other things aside, Where do I go from here? If I require Theosis to be where I want to be, what am I to do?
Much love!
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It is that, amen, I agree. But there can be a broader sense to things as sell and other scriptures that would seem to indicate so in this case. Matthew 18 for instance on the subject of forgiveness (loosing). Hasn't He sent and commissioned His church as a whole and isn't the church as a whole also instructed to forgive sins? I know that when I forgive someone who has trespassed against me, it looses/unbinds them from the debt of that trespass and God will not exact 'payment' of that debt from them (Matthew 18). There are not only apostles in the church, but other gifts as well with their attendant level of spiritual authority...as the Spirit wills. First of all apostles, secondly prophets, etc. Different gifts have different levels or areas of Christ's authority delegated to them.
Don't forget that Jesus is still alive and able to ordain whoever He wants for anything He wants. He doesn't have to use the agency of man to confer spiritual gifts/callings.There are no more Apostles.
But when they died, they passed on what they knew to the next generation.
There was laying on of hands...
Hebrews 6:1-2 speaks of the laying on of hands.
This was continued and is still in practice today.
So just as Jesus blessed the Apostles, did lay hands on them....
wouldn't this continue in the church?
Paul said this to Timothy...he was not an Apostle:
“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands” (1 Timothy 2:16).
If pastors and priests can exorcise demons, heal the sick, etc......
wouldn't they have to be blessed in this capacity by the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands?
I found this helpful:
LAYING ON OF HANDS: What St. Paul calls an “elementary principle” of Christianity—neglected, forgotten, or rejected by so many Christians today.
Many may have heard or read of the “laying on of hands,” but how many Christians understand its significance? St. Paul, in listing out what he called the “elementary principles of…johnbelovedhabib.wordpress.com
I'm not of the Orthodox church...it just makes sense to me.
OK
I would say we keep seeking the Lord and His will and His righteousness and to please Him, day by day, and keep reaching for what lies ahead, and HE will and IS leading us to where HE wants us to be.
(And thanks for that song, a balm for my frayed nerves and full of truth.)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I have been reading through this conversation, and find it stimulating, thanks to the goodwill between you guys. I am reminded of the time in the Gospels when Jesus sent out His disciples, and they came back rejoicing that even the demons obeyed them. There was no laying on of hands, in fact, one could argue whether some of them were even fully converted, such as Peter and Judas, yet through the power of the Holy Spirit that Christ breathed on them, they eye able to exercise power and authority in His name. Similar I think to the authority of a traffic officer. That authority isn't inherently in him, but he acts in the name of the government, and so is recognised as having authority. It isn't something handed down as if it were a tangible thing they received, but it was the authority given to act on the name of another... in that case, Jesus. Interestingly, Jesus acted in the name of the Father.There are no more Apostles.
But when they died, they passed on what they knew to the next generation.
There was laying on of hands...
Hebrews 6:1-2 speaks of the laying on of hands.
This was continued and is still in practice today.
So just as Jesus blessed the Apostles, did lay hands on them....
wouldn't this continue in the church?
Paul said this to Timothy...he was not an Apostle:
“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands” (1 Timothy 2:16).
If pastors and priests can exorcise demons, heal the sick, etc......
wouldn't they have to be blessed in this capacity by the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands?
I found this helpful:
LAYING ON OF HANDS: What St. Paul calls an “elementary principle” of Christianity—neglected, forgotten, or rejected by so many Christians today.
Many may have heard or read of the “laying on of hands,” but how many Christians understand its significance? St. Paul, in listing out what he called the “elementary principles of…
I'm not of the Orthodox church...it just makes sense to me.
OK
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
True, however He has chosen to use a hierarchal system or organisational structure in order to keep order and have united brethren cooperating to accomplish a divine mission.
A good point. I have noticed more than once, that when someone had been particularly awful to me, that not long afterwards they had been sick or something. On one occasion, a minister with whom I had disagreed with seemed to have parked his high end worshipped car, so that it took me ages and stress to get out. Soon after it had been a write-off, and come to think of it, I don't think I had forgiven him. Thanks for that challenge.
Yes but if we have a certain mindset, due to incorporating a theology, we will not notice we are doing it. I speak with some experience here, having gone from one theology, Reformed, to Arminian then to the ECF and of course all of us differ on points, but the overall tenet, like for example, free will v determinism, will show to others where we have learned our basis.
Of course in these days of 'pick and mix' it is harder to spot. People just don't seem aware that if we seriously go outside of our system, and none is perfect, we will lack consistency. We need theologians for that.
I am thinking about your understanding and not rejecting it yet.
As long as it's being "organized" and orchestrated by the Head of it and not by man. There is a scripture that talks about being so soon beguiled away from the simplicity that is in Christ, like Eve was beguiled by the serpent. And that He gives gifts to everyone as the Spirit wills....so that "when you come together every one of you hath" something to contribute to the edifying and building up of the church. People being allowed to exercise their spiritual senses helps them to grow and increase in strength. In this way the entire BODY would be "building ITSELF up in love" by everyone benefiting from various gifts/workings of the Spirit in the body of Christ, not just one.
I asked the Lord one time, why is it that the life of the Spirit is so often put to death in the churches....and the answer came right away..."artificial". I thought about that a moment and the penny dropped.....man-made. What is made by God is alive, what is man-made (artificial) is a dead facsimile.
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"The point Jesus was making is that Nicodemus should have known the truth that the Holy Spirit is the source of new life because it is revealed in the Old Testament. For instance, Moses told the Israelites prior to entering the Promised Land that “The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (Deuteronomy 30:6). This circumcision of the heart is the work of God’s Spirit and can be accomplished only by Him. We also see the theme of regeneration in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-29." (Got Questions).
From the start, man can either 'feed' from either tree, one is signifying the flesh and the other Spirit. In the OT provision was made for those functioning from the flesh in the way of sacrifices. Most children of Israel were so, but not the prophets.
To 'come upon' them is said to be temporary, but for how long? The prophets were speaking to and hearing God, therefore they were very close to Him.
For me, the story of what happened in the Garden, shows the truth. The Old and New covenants were there from the start and depended on the heart of a man which he would serve under.
Thanks.
You say we have three options. I do not find that.
On the main issues yes. Minor issues had leg room.
Yes I think I have that and thanks.That's the thing, though, I don't hold to any such system. I know those who do, I think most people I've had occasion to discuss Scripture at this kind of level will at some point come to the verse or verses where they end up saying, "Yes, it does say that, but what it really means is this." Like where Jesus said, as the Father sent, me, so I send you. Those whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and those whose sins you retain are retained. I'm the guy saying it means exactly what it says, no more, no less, but somehow, I'm the guy who is interpreting according to my 'system'.
So now I'm curious . . . are you also SPS?
Sensory processing sensitivity and somatosensory brain activation when feeling touch - Scientific Reports
Sensory processing sensitivity is described as a personality trait associated with a high sensitivity to environmental and social stimuli. It has been assumed that about 15–20% of the total population can be described as highly sensitive. The concept states that those individuals represent a...
The Highly Sensitive Person
The Highly Sensitive Person: Books, Information, Self-tests, Events and Researchhsperson.com
Much love!
I kept the best till last.
No-one enters His rest or finds The Way (credit to @Episkopos) unless they are pretty desperate because you are asked to make a huge sacrifice.
The first step is acknowledging that it is what you need - desperately need, and the second is to start listening to God carefully. He wants it more than you. That still small voice must be obeyed. Ones desire can be fired by reading testimonies of others.
And most of all prayer. I will post anything else I think of.
I don't agree with your blanket statement that we all simply do not notice our bias, and continue to interpret blindly according to our preconceptions. I'm certain many do, and I see much evidence of that.
I personally think that the person who sees a "spiritual meaning" in a passage that isn't written there, or doesn't have some sort of actual Scriptural foundation, that gives an objective statement towards what is being asserted, is more likely interpreting to their bias, or preconceptions. More like, having determined that they hold to such and such view, they will then go back and interpret other passages so that they will align with their view.
My manner of interpretation is different.
I set aside all other considerations, beliefs, what have you, as I examine a particular passage. I've had some schooling in Koine Greek, and I've continued my studies over the years. I look at the words used, and the syntax they are written in, and I divide passages into 2 groups. All fit one of those groups. One group is all the passages which make an unambiguous statement, which can only (linguisticly) be understood in a particular way. The other group consists of those passages which can linguistically be correctly understood more than one way.
An example of the first is, "therefore reckon yourself dead indeed to sin and alive to God in the Lord Jesus Christ". Each word is clear, clauses are well defined, tenses and voices and all give a clear sense. An example of the second is "who's names did not remain written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". In this example, "from the foundation of the world" can be connected to "who's names do not remain written in the book of life", or it can be connected to "of the Lamb slain".
Most connect it to "of the Lamb slain", leading to the doctrine that Jesus was crucifed from the foundation of the world, a concept that disagrees with Hebrews, that Jesus was slain once for all.
There is a parallel passage which tells us that all will worship the image and take the mark "who's names do not remain written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
I use the unambiguous to interpret the ambiguous, so in my example, I think that "from the foundation of the world" doesn't actually belong with "of the Lamb slain".
Those who interpret according to their bias, or what sounds good, or what they've been taught, well, let's just say, here again, I'm in the minority, because of how I interpret.
After determining what the passage itself is saying, then I move on to look at parallel passages, and word studies, and meditating on these things, and praying, and revisiting all the verses again, until I have an understanding that is found directly in the words written, no "it says this but it means that", and until my understanding is in a full harmony with all other relevant passages.
I appreciate that! I really believe we are after the same thing . . . the same One.
Much love!
Looking at the context of Deuteronomy 30:6
Deuteronomy 30:1-6 KJV
1) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
This speaks of a time when they have been scattered to all the nations, and they return to the Lord in heart and soul, that God will regather them, will circumcise their hearts, and they will love the Lord with all their heart and soul. There are numerous prophecies just the same.
This was prophesied as yet future, including in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel. This teaching was given Israel after their wilderness wandering, in a context of having lived in the land in disobedience, and the resultant cursing driving them out.
The prophecies are consistent on this, Israel would be scattered to the nations, God would regather them, give them a new heart, they would keep all the statutes and precepts, that is, the entire law and prophets. The regathering would be complete, and permanent. This has yet to be fulfilled.
I'd like to point out that there is no theological or dispensational bias, I'm only pointing to what the passages state. If you think they are saying something otherwise we can look at that.
Theme of regeneration? Or a parallel prophecy?
Ezekiel 11:15-20 KJV
15) Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16) Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17) Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18) And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19) And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20) That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
The scattered Israelites will be regathered, given a new heart, and will keep all the law and prophets.
Ezekiel 36:24-28 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
This is the same, a prophecy that Israel will be regathered from the nations, given a new heart, and keep all God's Law.
Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Here the prophet adds that this will be the final regathering, after this, they would no more be cast out from their land. Nor should they be, they have been given a new heart, and keep all of God's Law. Therefore they receive the blessings for obedience, and no curses for disobedience.
Again, I am only pointing to what these passages say. And dispensational or other implications, let the chips fall where they may, as they say.
Many sermons have been preached about the two trees, and there seem to be good analogies that can be made, however, Biblical teaching about these trees is little at best.
The Spirit came up David apparently for the remainder of his life.
1 Samuel 16:13 KJV
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.
1 Samuel 10:6 KJV
And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
The Spirit came upon Saul, and Saul prophesied, but does that mean Saul was close to God?
Concerning the prophets being close to God, I'd like to think it was so, that they had a special and close relationship with God, but I see some troubling things in their writings,
Ezekiel 3:14 KJV
So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.
Ezekiel wasn't always happy about what was happening with him.
Jeremiah had this to say:
Jeremiah 20:10-18 KJV
10) For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.
11) But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.
12) But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.
13) Sing unto the LORD, praise ye the LORD: for he hath delivered the soul of the poor from the hand of evildoers.
14) Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.
15) Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.
16) And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
17) Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
18) Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?
Essentially, that all these people are watching him, hoping to nail him. But the Lord protects him, and won't allow this to happen. So Jeremiah both praises God for being his protector, and curses the day he was born, because he'd rather have never been born!
No, being God's prophet wasn't just a bowl of peaches and cream!
Jesus announce the new covenant in His blood, shed on the cross.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
How would someone in Theosis be doctrinally wrong in their teaching?
Much love!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I would like to suggest a slight nuance to that connection. I don't think anyone would suggest that Christ was literally and actually crucified at creation. However, I believe that prior to creation, in their foreknowledge, the Father and the Son knew of the eventual fall of Adam and Eve, and also what it would cost them both through the process of redemption. They would have discussed this at length I am sure, and decided to create man anyway, knowing the consequences, and accepting the cost. In this way, I believe Christ was crucified at the foundation of the world.
Another parallel passage is
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ”
Ephesians 1:4 KJV
I know that asking with the next verse, the more extreme Calvinists among us would claim enthusiasm is predetermined, who is saved and who is lost. I do not take that view, but rather that the Father and the Son chose to create man and redeem mankind, and to do so with the intention of sanctifying them fully that no condemnation will remain upon those who accept Christ's death in his stead. That doesn't deprive man of the power to reject the salvation offered, and handed their names removed from the book of the Lamb who at the foundation of the world, chose to make atonement for him. Which I did. For the whole world, no one excepted, but for those who don't believe.
You have neglected one very important aspect of this. It is found in verse 10
“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. ”
Deuteronomy 30:10 KJV
This promise was partially fulfilled when they returned from Babylon. However, they did not remain faithful, and the curses once again came into effect. All God's promises to Israel were conditional. Just as salvation is conditional to us. Repent... and believe... the gospel.
@Brakelite "I believe Christ was crucified at the foundation of the world."
I agree, and would add, that the actual crucifixion in AD 33 or whenever, was the ratification of it, and that the spiritual reality of it is applicable throughout all of history, even in the Garden of Eden, where our crucifixion with Christ would be the means by which we could enter back into paradise and live from the tree of life.
I agree, and would add, that the actual crucifixion in AD 33 or whenever, was the ratification of it, and that the spiritual reality of it is applicable throughout all of history, even in the Garden of Eden, where our crucifixion with Christ would be the means by which we could enter back into paradise and live from the tree of life.
marks, regarding those who find The Way (pathway to holiness) and attain Theosis, it was recognized in the early church that they and only they, were qualified to interpret scriptures, being in the same spiritual state as the writers. They would be enabled to see past the seals that are there for protection, as anyone could profit from having a set of texts that prove the doctrine, to gain authority where it is not due. Only the perfect will understand the deeper spiritual meanings and will understand the futility of trying to 'prove' everything from scripture. We only gain more light if we obey the light we have been given.
Jesus condemned those who searched the scriptures to find eternal life and those who studied them intently without knowledge of the truth.
My time in Calvinism was not ill spent as I sat under the ministry of those who were well trained, those who studied scripture in depth, and I picked up some of their methods although I did not have any formal training. Still I learned how to look closely at the text and the principles of good hermeneutics. But here's the thing marks, both they and myself were spiritually dead to The Way and understanding about what God intended for His people.
Amen!
